We will not regain credibility if the church does not confront indigenous abuse

[metis]

I concur, although the Catholic Church seems to lead the pack. I'm against all abuse against any group.

Actually, you might research our Protestant friends historically here in the States and see how they treated NAs. You can buy an excellent book on that entitled "American Holocaust" by David Stannard, and it is available at Amazon.

 

[metis]

Those who choose to can go off the Metis settlements to go to church.

Isn't that their choice as to whether to have a church on their res?

You too have those roots. Why not explore them?

I already have, and as an anthropologist I've spent lotsa time on reservations here in the States, but especially Ojibwe reservations here in Michigan. I was just on a Potowatomi reservation for three days just two weeks ago. I'm retired, but I never stop studying.

 

[Vinayaka]

Actually, you might research our Protestant friends historically here in the States and see how they treated NAs. You can buy an excellent book on that entitled "American Holocaust" by David Stannard, and it is available at Amazon.

Yes I have. But thanks anyway. So too here in Canada.

 

[Vinayaka]

Isn't that their choice as to whether to have a church on their res?

I already have, and as an anthropologist I've spent lotsa time on reservations here in the States, but especially Ojibwe reservations here in Michigan. I was just on a Potowatomi reservation for three days just two weeks ago. I'm retired, but I never stop studying.

Yes, it's there choice, although it certainly wasn't in the first place. I think if elders refused to allow it any more, there would be one huge fuss from the Church. A better solution would be to stop attending, and let it fall into disuse.

Were there boarding schools in Michigan?

 

[metis]

Yes I have. But thanks anyway.

You're welcome.

So too here in Canada.

Yes, and two of my grandparents' heritage was from Quebec, and they went through a lot as well from what I've read. In Canada, I was only on two reservations, one on Walpole Island and the other at Kettle Point, both in western Ontario. Matter of fact, on the former I killed a copperhead because a couple of women were trying to kill it by beating it with a stick, so I helped them by lifting it with a long stick onto a path and pinning its head.

Copperheads are not supposed to be that far north, but we smuggled it off the island and through customs and checked the books on snakes-- yep, a copperhead.

OK, so I ain't a saint!

 

[England my lionheart]

Retired Canadian archbishop: ‘We will not regain our credibility’ if the church doesn’t confront Indigenous abuse | America Magazine

Indigenous abuse worldwide not just America,they sure have spread the love,credibility went out of the window long ago,the worrying thing is they never even noticed imo.

 

[metis]

Yes, it's there choice, although it certainly wasn't in the first place.

Yes it was their choice as res property is under sole leadership of the band, not the state nor national government, nor the church. On reservations here in the States, only the res owns the land.

A better solution would be to stop attending, and let it fall into disuse.

Again, isn't that their choice? Why do you think you should make that for them or even tell them what they supposedly should do?

Were there boarding schools in Michigan?

Yes, but I can't tell you how many or where they were.

Well, now you've given me some homework to do, so I'll see what I can find and get back to you tomorrow.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Two immediate things they could do in Canada is to dismantle all churches on First Nations Lands, and vow to provide the funds for safe drinking water on all the First Nations that don't have it. That would be a start. Apologizing over and over again gets tiring.

Well said, Vinayaka. I'm not sure about dismantling the churches on tribal lands. I think that should be a decision of the natives in the area to work out amongst themselves. Otherwise, I agree with your other suggestion. Actions speak louder than words.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Actually, you might research our Protestant friends historically here in the States and see how they treated NAs. You can buy an excellent book on that entitled "American Holocaust" by David Stannard, and it is available at Amazon.

Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West, by Dee Brown, is also a book that I recommend to read.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West, by Dee Brown, is also a book that I recommend to read.

I have that book (amongst quite a few on indigenous Americans). An interesting/sad read.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Obviously, that cannot be done. But let me just remind you that it's not just the Catholic Church that did such deeds as we also find this with other organizations as well, including within Hinduism. However, I take no solace in that either since two [or more] wrongs do not make a right.

There were Hindu residential schools? This is news to me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

People are moving beyond organized religion. Trying to gain credibility is a losing game.

I think that at this point, salvaging the Church from outright contempt would be difficult but possible.

For starters, they should voluntarily pay the full $54 million of the settlement they agreed to in 2005. Cash. No "in-kind services," no paying themselves and pretending that it's part of the compensation package. Just straight cash paid to their victims.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sask...-survivors-catholic-church-millions-1.6121678

If the church that owns its own freakin' bank and has spent more than $300 million on buildings and real estate just in Canada over the same period when they claimed they couldn't scrape together $29 million for the residential school compensation fund, then they deserve whatever hit they take to their credibility.

Other denominations paid what they owed under the 2005 settlement. The Catholic Church following suit would be literally the least they could do if they're interested in making reparations or restoring their reputation.

 

[clara17]

The Roman church is a giant corporation. You would assume its pretty important to keep the credibility intact if you hope to keep the revenues coming. But you would be wrong. Followers of this church will accept literally anything it does.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Retired Canadian archbishop: ‘We will not regain our credibility’ if the church doesn’t confront Indigenous abuse | America Magazine

I still can't get over all those mass graves of children.

 

[metis]

Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West, by Dee Brown, is also a book that I recommend to read.

I read it many years ago-- excellent!

 

[metis]

Followers of this church will accept literally anything it does.

Generally, false. Yes, there are some that are that way, but there are many who don't, and I'm in the latter camp. The Church, especially in recent times, has been very critical of itself, and we see this especially coming out in spades with Pope Francis.

So, name a church that doesn't do as you say? or synagogue? or temple? or mosque? or any other organization?

 

[pearl]

Bishop Raymond Poisson of Saint-Jérôme and of Mont-Laurier, Quebec, president of the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, told Vatican News Dec. 10 that the suffering of the Indigenous people of Canada, particularly in residential schools run by Catholic dioceses and religious orders, was the primary topic when leaders of the conference met Pope Francis Dec. 9.
The meeting took place soon after it was announced that the long-planned visit of delegations of the Assembly of First Nations, Inuit and Métis leaders with the pope Dec. 17-20 had been postponed due to COVID-19 travel concerns.
The visit of the Indigenous representatives, accompanied by some bishops, initially was planned for 2020, but was postponed because of the pandemic. It became even more urgent after the discover in May of the remains of 215 children in unmarked graves at the site of the former Kamloops Indian Residential School in British Columbia.
Pope to meet Canadian Indigenous leaders in the spring, bishop says | National Catholic Reporter (ncronline.org)

Do the Native people in your arch/diocese use their religious symbols and rituals in their communal prayer life?” Fifty-one dioceses (just under 30 percent of the total) replied “Yes” to this question and described the symbols and how they are used. A number of dioceses stressed that these symbols and rituals are used only on special occasions; others indicated that they are incorporated into the ongoing worship of the community. Among the most common symbols/rituals are the following: • Smudging (blessing, purifying) with cedar, sage, sweetgrass, and tobacco • Eagle feather used in blessings • Dance and drums used for liturgies • Indian music in liturgy (one diocese noted that Br. Martin Fenerty, FSC, has composed five Masses based on Native American melodies) • Indian naming ceremony in conjunction with Baptism • Native attire used in local and diocesan celebrations • Four-directional prayer • Sweat lodge • Statues, relics of Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha • Medicine wheel • Native crucifix and cross • Sacred vessels, decorations, and vestments with Native designs • Sacred pipe
The incorporation of Native symbols and rituals in communal worship is much more common in parishes/ministries serving Native Americans on reservations or in rural communities than in urban settings. Some of those ministering to Native Americans noted that the diversity of tribes, and thus symbols, in urban areas makes it difficult to find symbols relevant to all
the groups to whom they minister.
Native Amer_final.text (usccb.org)

 

[pearl]

It's really pitiful that it took a 'movie, Indian Horse' to so raise the knowledge of and outrage to raise public awareness.

 

[metis]

BTW, there's a similar thing that took place in Australia with the indigenous there as well covered in the movie "Rabbit Proof Fence", which is based on a true story.

 

[Kooky]

Trying to gain credibility is a losing game.

Trying to do right by the people your own organization used to abuse as part of a massive program of genocide is not.