"We knew this was probably going to happen", says anti-Islam film-maker Steve Klein

[MartyrX]

This is probably true but completely irrelavent to my point. Firstly being black isn't a religion or should I say being a muslim isn't being part of a specific race. It is a choice you make, sure it may be parental indoctrination but that is a different issue.

If you are part of a racial group, you are just that. You cannot change that. There is no question of being usure if you are or not. (multi ethnicity is again a different issue which I don't intend to get into here and certainly don't want to offend anybody).

My point is, if you hold a belief to be true, and someone mocks your belief, then if your reaction to this is to beat the crap out of them, I would suggest that the strength of your conviction cannot be strong enough to be able to take criticism. If it was then surely discourse would be the answer.

No it makes perfect sense.

 

[Steve Love]

Are you suggesting someone change their religion because others mock it? For some, changing religion isn't an option they wish to choose. I'm not sure what your point is.

No absolutely not. My point is that if your are religious then stand by your faith.
Why on earth would you get so enraged when people tell you your faith is wrong.

That is the whole point about faith. It is your belief, and for that to make any sense then other people have to believe something different. Otherwise it would be truth.

Faith will always be up against scrutiny, it goes with the terratory, therefore I say again, stand by your faith and be proud of it. Do not freak out and try and silence the doubters because you will look like your faith is weak.

Does that make more sense?

 

[beenie]

No absolutely not. My point is that if your are religious then stand by your faith.
Why on earth would you get so enraged when people tell you your faith is wrong.

That is the whole point about faith. It is your belief, and for that to make any sense then other people have to believe something different. Otherwise it would be truth.

Faith will always be up against scrutiny, it goes with the terratory, therefore I say again, stand by your faith and be proud of it. Do not freak out and try and silence the doubters because you will look like your faith is weak.

Does that make more sense?

My friend, you are preaching to the choir. I don't get worked up when someone attacks my faith. Personally, I couldn't care less what others think, and I'm not in favor of silencing them. However, to expect everyone to behave in the same manner is being a bit naive.

I'm sure there are some that wouldn't react violently to racial slurs either, and some that will.

 

[MartyrX]

No absolutely not. My point is that if your are religious then stand by your faith.
Why on earth would you get so enraged when people tell you your faith is wrong.

That is the whole point about faith. It is your belief, and for that to make any sense then other people have to believe something different. Otherwise it would be truth.

Faith will always be up against scrutiny, it goes with the terratory, therefore I say again, stand by your faith and be proud of it. Do not freak out and try and silence the doubters because you will look like your faith is weak.

Does that make more sense?

Not everyone is you. You can't expect the same reaction from everyone.

 

[Steve Love]

Not everyone is you. You can't expect the same reaction from everyone.

Yes you are probably correct and I will happily concede that at best what I have described is representative of only a preportion of people.

What I do expect is that the very people who preach peace in terms of faith or otherwise should practice it.

And, like it or not, the reaction to this video and to the dutch cartoons previously has painted islam in a specific light rightly or wrongly and this is my reaction to it (right or wrong).

If you notice I have threatened nobody however I have suggested people are incorrect, childish, paranoid and ignorant. I am afraid that it appears to me to still be the case. Present company excluded.

 

[esmith]

From out local newspaper(Idaho Statesman) a story by Nancy A. Youssef and Amina Ismail of the NcClatchy Newspapers.
It seems that the creator of the video clip called an Egyptian journalist and insisted he write a story on it. The creator is described as a Coptic Christian who lives in suburban Washington, D.C. who had his Egyptian citizenship revoked earlier this year. The reporter, Gamel Girgis, who covers Christian emigrants for al Youm al Sabaa, the Seventh Day, a daily newspaper in Cairo said that Sadek had a movie clip he wanted Girgis to see; he emailed him a link; Sadek told Girgis that he produced a movie last year and wanted to screen it on Sept 11. On Sept 6, Girgis published a three-paragraph article, calling the movie "shocking" and warning it could fuel sectarian tensions between Egyptian Christians and Muslims. Five days later the riots start.

 

[Me Myself]

That's one way of looking at it. The other one is even more obvious, perhaps they set out to prove a point... which is too easily proven.
You can discuss how provocative and in poor taste the movie is, and most of us will agree. But the fact that they were able to manipulate such results, is just as important and telling.
If every time a provocative movie about Islam comes out we have a violent panic attacks from Muslim crowds, I definitely see a problem. Just as when Dutch film makers are assassinated or Danish embassies in the Middle East are burnt for what independent cartoonists drew in Europe.

I am not sure any one would win a prize for predicting how Muslims would react to insults... It was a certainty.

Exactly. I don't understand why people are trying to downplay the disproportionate reactions that has harmed innocent people. Let's say that someone set fire to a basket of kittens because someone called him a nincompoop. Sure, the one that called him a nincompoop is a big meanie, but he isn't responsible for such an extreme, exaggerated reaction. We don't say that the charred kitten carcasses are the fault of the name caller, while pretending that there's nothing wrong with the one that set them ablaze.

All of that. I agree

 

[Me Myself]

What strikes me is the disgusting double standard we too often see on this issue.

Were I to gather some picket signs decorated with carefully selected triggers ( let's say pictures of nooses, of monkeys, of Aunt Jemimas) and sporting the most crude and ugly racist slogans, and were you and and and a few of your friends to march with these signs through Watts or the side of Chicago, there is an exceptionally good chance that we would trigger a violent reaction. And few, if any, would pompously remark: "the thing that struck me is how paranoid about your race do you have to be to get so defensive ..."

You cannot expect this kind of attack in such a reliable fashion from another religion.

Race is completely different because it is promoting hate towards people, not towards an ideology.

Besides, I can bet you would have less likelyhood of dying by doing your Jemimas stuff than what you would do with the film.

Also, you are talking about parading on the streets. What about try a racist movie? still LESS chance of you been tracked down and killed. Less chance of someone completely unrelated to die.

And it is something against HUMANS not ideologies.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How exactly is his point irrelevant? Both are striking on emotions, both are inciting a reaction. We can wish people wouldn't fall for such outward attacks, but emotion is a funny thing.

Absolutely true. But I suspect that racist incitement in a black ghetto would elicit, first and foremost, a condemnation of the racist incitement. It is inconceivable to me that those who speak of those in the Middle East with such condescension would respond to a Klan-like provocation by saying ...

The thing that struck me is how paranoid about your race do you have to be to get so defensive that you take to the streets and shout for blood.​

Indeed, his response to me was the rather remarkable ...

You cannot choose your race but you can choose your religion.​

Put differently ...

Racist provocation is less fair because it's not their fault that they're black.
Islamophobic provocation is more fair because it's clearly their fault that they're Muslim.​

Really?

No one should condone the deeply ugly response we see being provoked throughout the Muslim world, but to pretend that it's a Middle Eastern or Muslim phenomenon is bigoted sophistry. People with a history of being marginalized, denigrated, and oppressed often react viscerally to provocation, particularly when prompted to do so.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Race is completely different because it is promoting hate towards people, not towards an ideology.

 

[beenie]

You nailed it, Jay.

 

[Falvlun]

Absolutely true. But I suspect that racist incitement in a black ghetto would elicit, first and foremost, a condemnation of the racist incitement. It is inconceivable to me that those who speak of those in the Middle East with such condescension would respond to a Klan-like provocation by saying ...

The thing that struck me is how paranoid about your race do you have to be to get so defensive that you take to the streets and shout for blood.​

Indeed, his response to me was the rather remarkable ...

You cannot choose your race but you can choose your religion.​

Put differently ...

Racist provocation is less fair because it's not their fault that they're black.
Islamophobic provocation is more fair because it's clearly their fault that they're Muslim.​

Really?

No one should condone the deeply ugly response we see being provoked throughout the Muslim world, but to pretend that it's a Middle Eastern or Muslim phenomenon is bigoted sophistry. People with a history of being marginalized, denigrated, and oppressed often react viscerally to provocation, particularly when prompted to do so.

But the civil rights movement was largely non-violent on the part of those who had a history of being denigrated, marginalized, and oppressed.

 

[Steve Love]

Racist provocation is less fair because it's not their fault that they're black.
Islamophobic provocation is more fair because it's clearly their fault that they're Muslim.​

Really?

No one should condone the deeply ugly response we see being provoked throughout the Muslim world, but to pretend that it's a Middle Eastern or Muslim phenomenon is bigoted sophistry. People with a history of being marginalized, denigrated, and oppressed often react viscerally to provocation, particularly when prompted to do so.

I have to say that I am still astounded you cannot see the difference.

There are no specific rules or laws to follow within racial groups to my knowlege, certainly not in the same way that specific faiths are set up. This is the main distinction I can draw (aside from the choice matter) between race and religion.

I have to say, although it is not directly relavent that I am offended by some religious doctrines that faiths demand believers follow. I find some of these laws to be counter productive and a few to be absolutely immoral. Now my point is that if I do, I can only assume that others do as well.

Personally I consider this to be more of an insult to me as part of the human race than any badly conceived film or cartoon.

 

[Me Myself]

Its cool, I am sure if you had thought it up a little bit more you would have realized that too

 

[Debater Slayer]

I am sorry, I missed that.

Really, you are suggesting that mocking someone for their race is the same as mocking someone for their religion?

They are fundamentally different things. You cannot choose your race but you can choose your religion.

If someone takes the mick out of me for red being my favourite colour that is one thing but to tease me about being ginger is infinately worse.

Come on now, seriously?

In many societies, changing your religion can result in you being killed.

In many societies, changing your religion can result in you being an outcast.

In many societies, changing your religion can result in your disownment.

In many societies, the argument that "you can choose your religion" is so unfeasible as to be absurd.

 

[Steve Love]

In many societies, changing your religion can result in you being killed.

In many societies, changing your religion can result in you being an outcast.

In many societies, changing your religion can result in your disownment.

In many societies, the argument that "you can choose your religion" is so unfeasible as to be absurd.

Yes, it's crackers isn't it.

 

[jasonwill2]

A terrible movie made by anti-islamists and almost every major city on the planet has a riot (Sydney certainly wasn't simply a protest); policemen the world over get assaulted; public and private property is damaged; people die.

I guess the bigots who made the film got exactly what they wanted, to show the ugly side of extremists. With reactions to cartoons and southpark in mind, my opinion is that it would be hard for the film-makers not to have considered that some outrage would come about. However, the scale of the anger is just disgusting.

It bothers me how readily people shift the blame from the extremist muslim minority to the US government. Truely concerning.

Almost every major city? News to me, I havn't heard it being THAT widespread.

But not over insults... That seems to be reserved to Muslims.

There have been plenty of riots over insults and sports games, too many to count.

 

[Father Heathen]

What strikes me is the disgusting double standard we too often see on this issue.

Were I to gather some picket signs decorated with carefully selected triggers ( let's say pictures of nooses, of monkeys, of Aunt Jemimas) and sporting the most crude and ugly racist slogans, and were you and and and a few of your friends to march with these signs through Watts or the side of Chicago, there is an exceptionally good chance that we would trigger a violent reaction. And few, if any, would pompously remark: "the thing that struck me is how paranoid about your race do you have to be to get so defensive ..."

Except beliefs aren't remotely comparable to genetics.

 

[Father Heathen]

So criticizing or scrutinizing any ideology, no matter how irrational and/or repugnant, is a form of bigotry?

 

[Music]

But the civil rights movement was largely non-violent on the part of those who had a history of being denigrated, marginalized, and oppressed.

Do you expect everyone to react to oppression in the exact same way?