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Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
1) REGARDING OWNERSHIP OF THIS WORLD
Soapy said : Now down and worship me and I will give you the kingdom … IT IS MINE TO GIVE TO WHOM I WILL!’" (Post #1114)
Clear replied : "This seems to be a quote (or maybe a an interpretation of a quote..?).
Can you explain where this specific quote came from and why you offered this specific statement.? (post #1116)

Soapy replied : "Are you not familiar with the temptation that Satan inflicted on Jesus in the wilderness shortly after Jesus was anointed with Holy Spirit and with power? (post #1117)


Yes, I am. Your version does not appear in the bible and is quite different than the authentic version.

Compare your version to the authentic version. Soapy said : Now down and worship me and I will give you the kingdom … IT IS MINE TO GIVE TO WHOM I WILL!’" (Post #1114)

Jesus was shown and offered "the kingdoms of the world.”

Your version says : “I will give you the kingdom”
The authentic version says :"All these I will give you”

Your version adds : “IT IS MINE TO GIVE TO WHOM I WILL
The authentic version does not add this phrase at all


since your quote did not come from the bible, I asked if it was "an interpretation" of yours that was inadvertently offered as an authentic biblical quote.
Luke 4:6.
2) REGARDING WHO GOD SPOKE TO SAYING "LET US CREATE MAN IN OUR OWN IMAGE"
Soapy said : " why was Satan wanting to be worshipped by mankind like his Creator, YAHWEH, was worshipped … because it was to HIM that YAHWEH said:

  • ‘Let us create man in our image, in our likeness’ (meaning: with intelligence, wisdom, self-Will, and judgemental power)"(Post #1114)
Clear asked : "Are you suggesting God was speaking to Satan when God said "let us create man in our own image? (post #1116)
Soapy answered ; “Yes, As above, Satan is the highest and brightest, and most intelligent of all God’s holy spirited Angels.” (post #1117)


Yes, Satan is smart. That is irrelevant to my question.

My question had to do with your claim that God was speaking to Satan when God said : "Let us create man in our own image".
The question was: "Are you suggesting God was speaking to Satan when God said "let us create man in our own image? I answered ‘Yes…’. And then went further by giving my reasoning - how is that not answering?
Do you have any historical data that supports this theory that God was speaking to Satan when he said "Let us create man in our own image."?
’Historical data’? You mean, ‘Is there a historical record of God speaking to the angels during the creation of the world and mankind specifically? Well, is there a historical record for God not speaking to the angels… after all, who else was there for God to be speaking to? God was clearly not speaking to himself - or else why? He never spoke to himself at any other time!!

And, again, why would Satan become angered by being denied worship from mankind if he wasn’t instrumental in man’s creation (but again I stress that being involved in the creation does not give angels the right to any accolades applied to it. It was Satan’s pride that drove him to sin in thinking he was worthy of praise for his part!)
3) WHO CREATED TO BODY OF ADAM FROM THE DUST OF THE EARTH?
Soapy claimed : "Satan created the body of Adam… "(Post #1114)

Clear asked : "Can you explain this theory of yours and why you think Satan created Adams body instead of God creating Adams body?" (post #1116)
Soapy replied : "“BUT NOTE that though the BODY was created by the Angel,…”
Soapy, there was NO supporting data in your reply. Even the phrase, “BUT NOTE that though the BODY was created by the Angel,…” is a repetition of your claim but it is not supporting data.
The rest of your reply was irrelevant to support of this specific theory.
Nothing in your answer explains your theory or WHY you think Satan created Adams body instead of Adams body being created by God.

Do you actually have any pertinent historical data that explains this theory of yours that Satan created Adams Body?

I don’t see what advantage your theory has over the Judeo-Christian tradition that God created Adams body.
Do you have any supporting data to offer readers in support of your two theories ?

1) Satan created Adams body
2) God was speaking to Satan when he said "Let us create man in our own likeness (or image)


Clear
φισιτζδρτωω
Im not sure what you are after… since the truth is hurtful to you. You prefer some nonsense from posters so you can ridicule them!?

Try writing the story of the transition and reasoning of the point of the events in the scriptures and you will find that the truth is far easier to understand than the trinitarian version which has unjointed and misaligned renderings that are what probably led you to be sceptical about the scriptures.

Jesus said: ‘… Greeks seeks wisdom!’ and ‘and unto the Greeks [Christ crucified is] foolishness;’

Are you Greek?
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @Soapy


1) REGARDING OWNERSHIP OF THIS WORLD

Soapy said : Now down and worship me and I will give you the kingdom … IT IS MINE TO GIVE TO WHOM I WILL!’" (Post #1114)
Clear replied : "This seems to be a quote (or maybe a an interpretation of a quote..?).

Can you explain where this specific quote came from and why you offered this specific statement.? (post #1116)
Soapy replied : "Are you not familiar with the temptation that Satan inflicted on Jesus in the wilderness shortly after Jesus was anointed with Holy Spirit and with power? (post #1117)
Clear replied : “Yes, I am. Your version does not appear in the bible and is quite different than the authentic version.
Compare your version to the authentic version. Soapy said : Now down and worship me and I will give you the kingdom … IT IS MINE TO GIVE TO WHOM I WILL!’" (Post #1114)
Jesus was shown and offered "the kingdoms of the world.”
Your version says : “I will give you the kingdom”
The authentic version says
:"All these I will give you”
Your version adds : “IT IS MINE TO GIVE TO WHOM I WILL”
The authentic version does not add this phrase at all

since your quote did not come from the bible, I asked if it was "an interpretation" of yours that was inadvertently offered as an authentic biblical quote.

Soapy replied : “Luke 4:6) (post 1121)

Hi Soapy, your reply : 'Luke 4:6" does not help in this case since Luke 4:6 also does not say “I will give you the kingdom” but instead the devil promises to give “the power” and “the glory” of these kingdoms of mankind.
Also, The second phrase you offered (i.e. “It is mine to give to whom I will”) is also not a biblical quote in any source text.
Instead the actual phrase “it has been delivered to me” (παραδεδοται) does not imply that Satan owns the kingdom, but that the “power” and the “glory” of the kingdoms of mankind which he offers Jesus are under his influence (not his ownership).

Since your quote does not appear in any New Testament source text, this is why I asked if you were combining some sort of scriptures to come up with your new “quote”?






2) REGARDING WHO GOD SPOKE TO SAYING "LET US CREATE MAN IN OUR OWN IMAGE"

Soapy said : " why was Satan wanting to be worshipped by mankind like his Creator, YAHWEH, was worshipped … because it was to HIM that YAHWEH said: ‘Let us create man in our image, in our likeness’ (meaning: with intelligence, wisdom, self-Will, and judgemental power)"(Post #1114)
Clear asked : “Are you suggesting God was speaking to Satan when God said "let us create man in our own image?”
Soapy replied :”Yes, As above, Satan is the highest and brightest, and most intelligent of all God’s holy spirited Angels.
Clear replied : “Yes, Satan is smart. That is irrelevant to my question. My question had to do with your claim that God was speaking to Satan when God said : "Let us create man in our own image".
Soapy replied : “I answered ‘Yes…’. And then went further by giving my reasoning - how is that not answering? (post #1121)

The problem was that your "reasoning" did not have any data or logical support other than Satan was "smart". Nothing connected Satan to God's proclamation.
Clear asked : “Do you have any historical data that supports this theory that God was speaking to Satan when he said "Let us create man in our own image."?”
Soapy replied : “… who else was there for God to be speaking to? God was clearly not speaking to himself - or else why? He never spoke to himself at any other time!!”



In early Christian tradition, God the Father was speaking to his son who was called “The Word”. John 1:1 tells us that “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God...”.

This tradition that Jesus was in the beginning with God is reflected in this early historical literature. For example, Barnabas said : “For the Scripture speaks about us when he says to the Son: 'Let us make man according to our image and likeness, and let them rule over the beasts of the earth and the birds of the air and the fish of the sea.' And when he saw that our creation was good, the Lord said: 'Increase and multiply and fill the earth.' These things he said to the Son." (The Epistle of Barnabas 6:12)

In early Judeo-Christian tradition and their literature, the son was closely associated with the father from the very beginning to the point that the Father employs the son as the creator of the Earth. This is why the early literature speaks of God creating through a mediator.

In this ancient model, it is Jesus, the word, to whom God said : “Let us create man in our own likeness (image)..." rather than God the Father speaking to Satan.

I’ve just never seen any data to support your theory that God was talking to Satan when he said “Let us create man…..”.







3) WHO CREATED TO BODY OF ADAM FROM THE DUST OF THE EARTH?

Soapy claimed : "Satan created the body of Adam… "(Post #1114)
Clear said : “This is an unusual theory that I've never heard before. Can you explain this theory of yours and why you think Satan created Adams body instead of God creating Adams body? (post #116)
Soapy answered : “…Satan (‘an opposer’: the Angel who became titles so for his opposition to God) was God’s highest and most intelligent Angel in heaven…. God, who obviously is completely wise, completely intelligent, completely powerful, instructed this powerful, wise, and intelligent Angel to construct the body of the man…(post #1117)
Clear responded : Do you actually have any pertinent historical data that explains this theory of yours that Satan created Adams Body?” (post #1120)
Soapy responded “Im not sure what you are after… since the truth is hurtful to you. (post #1121).


Ad hominems are not going to help your theory.
What I am after is an explanation and supporting data regarding your theory.

The typical ancient Judeo-Christian tradition is that God created Adams body and this is different than your theory that Satan created Adams body.

Since Judeo-Christianity is a historical religion I am asking for some sort of historical data upon which you base your theory. I do not see any advantage of your theory over that of the early Christian religion.




Soapy said : “You prefer some nonsense from posters so you can ridicule them!?” (post #1121)
Soapy, There is no need for personal attacks.
I am not trying to ridicule you but instead, am trying to understand your theories and wondering what historical data underlies and supports your theories (if there is any).
Do you have any historical data underling your theories? If so, will you share it?


Clear
φισιδρδρακω
 
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Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Hi @Soapy


1) REGARDING OWNERSHIP OF THIS WORLD

Soapy said : Now down and worship me and I will give you the kingdom … IT IS MINE TO GIVE TO WHOM I WILL!’" (Post #1114)
Clear replied : "This seems to be a quote (or maybe a an interpretation of a quote..?).

Can you explain where this specific quote came from and why you offered this specific statement.? (post #1116)
Soapy replied : "Are you not familiar with the temptation that Satan inflicted on Jesus in the wilderness shortly after Jesus was anointed with Holy Spirit and with power? (post #1117)
Clear replied : “Yes, I am. Your version does not appear in the bible and is quite different than the authentic version.
Compare your version to the authentic version. Soapy said : Now down and worship me and I will give you the kingdom … IT IS MINE TO GIVE TO WHOM I WILL!’" (Post #1114)
Jesus was shown and offered "the kingdoms of the world.”
Your version says : “I will give you the kingdom”
The authentic version says
:"All these I will give you”
Your version adds : “IT IS MINE TO GIVE TO WHOM I WILL”
The authentic version does not add this phrase at all

since your quote did not come from the bible, I asked if it was "an interpretation" of yours that was inadvertently offered as an authentic biblical quote.

Soapy replied : “Luke 4:6) (post 1121)

Hi Soapy, your reply : 'Luke 4:6" does not help in this case since Luke 4:6 also does not say “I will give you the kingdom” but instead the devil promises to give “the power” and “the glory” of these kingdoms of mankind.
Also, The second phrase you offered (i.e. “It is mine to give to whom I will”) is also not a biblical quote in any source text.
Instead the actual phrase “it has been delivered to me” (παραδεδοται) does not imply that Satan owns the kingdom, but that the “power” and the “glory” of the kingdoms of mankind which he offers Jesus are under his influence (not his ownership).

Since your quote does not appear in any New Testament source text, this is why I asked if you were combining some sort of scriptures to come up with your new “quote”?
Did i not say that Satan is the Stewarding Angel over creation? If I didn’t say it here then I most certainly said it elsewhere and is again certainly what I am implying.

Satan by no means OWNS creation… that would be ridiculous. Whatever else may have been said it certainly was NEVER any intention of mine to say so. Moreover, if Satan did say it verbatim then he was doing what he’s best at… lying! Or being disingenuous … I don’t know if you watch ‘Lord of the Rings’ where the steward king claims the throne because he believes the true king is not coming to his throne. … Yes, Tolkien wrote that part to reflect exactly what I am saying. But Jesus knows the truth and that it was a temptation from Satan.

Satan is the highest of the angels created by God. He is glorious and magnificent, highly intelligent, incredibly wise and more powerful than any other of God’s created Beings. He sits as STEWARD over creation knowing that God proposed a SON OF MAN to eventually come to rule creation… that he would have to relinquish his stewardship to a son of man (more likely, a Son of God… do you know what the difference is..,!?? I bet you don’t?)
Being wise and powerful, being highly intelligent, caused him to be puffed up with pride at his achievements (which included the creation of the BODY of Adam) and thus he desired WORSHIP from mankind just as God received worship… That caused his downfall.

p.s. If Jesus created all things…. Why isn’t Jesus called ‘Father’?

Why is there a spirit person called FATHER who is NOT Jesus?

Why is Jesus the SON of the Father … isnt ‘Son’ a subordinate designation…?

How can coequality (as trinity put it) contain subordination of its members who are 100% co-equal!??)

You seem to have an earthly view of the scriptures and that causes you to miss the spiritual aspect. For instance, ‘Kingdoms of the world’ is not just Jerusalem, Persia, Greece, Rome, India, etc… it is ALL CREATION…. Creation is not just planet EARTH!
2) REGARDING WHO GOD SPOKE TO SAYING "LET US CREATE MAN IN OUR OWN IMAGE"
Soapy said : " why was Satan wanting to be worshipped by mankind like his Creator, YAHWEH, was worshipped … because it was to HIM that YAHWEH said: ‘Let us create man in our image, in our likeness’ (meaning: with intelligence, wisdom, self-Will, and judgemental power)"(Post #1114)
Clear asked : “Are you suggesting God was speaking to Satan when God said "let us create man in our own image?”
Soapy replied :”Yes, As above, Satan is the highest and brightest, and most intelligent of all God’s holy spirited Angels.
Clear replied : “Yes, Satan is smart. That is irrelevant to my question. My question had to do with your claim that God was speaking to Satan when God said : "Let us create man in our own image".
Soapy replied : “I answered ‘Yes…’. And then went further by giving my reasoning - how is that not answering? (post #1121)

The problem was that your "reasoning" did not have any data or logical support other than Satan was "smart". Nothing connected Satan to God's proclamation.
Clear asked : “Do you have any historical data that supports this theory that God was speaking to Satan when he said "Let us create man in our own image."?”
Soapy replied : “… who else was there for God to be speaking to? God was clearly not speaking to himself - or else why? He never spoke to himself at any other time!!”



In early Christian tradition, God the Father was speaking to his son who was called “The Word”. John 1:1 tells us that “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God...”.

This tradition that Jesus was in the beginning with God is reflected in this early historical literature. For example, Barnabas said : “For the Scripture speaks about us when he says to the Son: 'Let us make man according to our image and likeness, and let them rule over the beasts of the earth and the birds of the air and the fish of the sea.' And when he saw that our creation was good, the Lord said: 'Increase and multiply and fill the earth.' These things he said to the Son." (The Epistle of Barnabas 6:12)

In early Judeo-Christian tradition and their literature, the son was closely associated with the father from the very beginning to the point that the Father employs the son as the creator of the Earth. This is why the early literature speaks of God creating through a mediator.

In this ancient model, it is Jesus, the word, to whom God said : “Let us create man in our own likeness (image)..." rather than God the Father speaking to Satan.

I’ve just never seen any data to support your theory that God was talking to Satan when he said “Let us create man…..”.
You write and believe a load of tosh… You aren’t even a Christian nor someone with intent on true Christianity - you sound like a philosopher … Greek … seeking evidence!
Well, Jesus implied that no evidence would be shown to them - they must believe by Faith!

But, to answer you… Doesn’t it sounds ridiculous that GOD (who trinity says is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’) should be TALKING TO THE SON

Oh, Mr philosopher, work that out?!

But wait, there’s more?

Trinity ALSO SAYS that GOD IS ESSENCE… (trinity doesn’t explain what ‘Essence’ means - it just uses it cos it sounds clever!)

So ESSENCE was talking with the Son of ESSENCE…!!

Hmmm … eat philosopher pie!!

No, Mr Philosopher, GOD was talking to the SENIOR Angel … Two persons (two separate intelligences) because also trinity says the THREE ARE ONE So it is IMPOSSIBLE for a single agreeing source to CONSULT AND SUGGEST TO EACH OTHER (again, which of the three was speaking to which of the others … ASSUMING it was the Father is false analysis… You should know that….!!)

Is your philosopher brain going into overdrive yet with this new intelligence about the fallacy of the trinity? The impossibility of its incredulous nonsense?
3) WHO CREATED TO BODY OF ADAM FROM THE DUST OF THE EARTH?
Soapy claimed : "Satan created the body of Adam… "(Post #1114)
Clear said : “This is an unusual theory that I've never heard before. Can you explain this theory of yours and why you think Satan created Adams body instead of God creating Adams body? (post #116)
Soapy answered : “…Satan (‘an opposer’: the Angel who became titles so for his opposition to God) was God’s highest and most intelligent Angel in heaven…. God, who obviously is completely wise, completely intelligent, completely powerful, instructed this powerful, wise, and intelligent Angel to construct the body of the man…(post #1117)
Clear responded : Do you actually have any pertinent historical data that explains this theory of yours that Satan created Adams Body?” (post #1120)
Soapy responded “Im not sure what you are after… since the truth is hurtful to you. (post #1121).


Ad hominems are not going to help your theory.
What I am after is an explanation and supporting data regarding your theory.

The typical ancient Judeo-Christian tradition is that God created Adams body and this is different than your theory that Satan created Adams body.

Since Judeo-Christianity is a historical religion I am asking for some sort of historical data upon which you base your theory. I do not see any advantage of your theory over that of the early Christian religion.




Soapy said : “You prefer some nonsense from posters so you can ridicule them!?” (post #1121)
Soapy, There is no need for personal attacks.
I am not trying to ridicule you but instead, am trying to understand your theories and wondering what historical data underlies and supports your theories (if there is any).
Do you have any historical data underling your theories? If so, will you share it?


Clear
φισιδρδρακω
I AM not surprised that you’ve never heard the truth before… it is why you believe as you do. You’ve listened to trinity nonsense for so long and debunked it so easily that now you hear the truth that you can’t debunk you’ve gone over to believing trinity … ha ha ha .., your enemy is your friend … ha ha ha…!

Anyway, ‘When you knew not the truth you were entitled to your ignorance… but now having heard the truth you are no longer innocence when you grieve the Holy Spirit’.

Of course, that anecdote will be meaningless to you but, hey ho, one day it will hit you… You heard it here first!

((psst… let me give you a bit of advice… Try looking at the truth of a thing and not just it’s appearance!. Someone posted a picture of a short tube. The picture showed light sources showing shadows of the tube face on and side on. It’s side on shadow looked like a rectangle … Trinity is that rectangle …!!! It’s a shadow of the truth…! Arrows and Inscription on the picture said, ‘Truth’ …))
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
1) REGARDING OWNERSHIP OF THIS WORLD
Soapy said : Now down and worship me and I will give you the kingdom … IT IS MINE TO GIVE TO WHOM I WILL!’" (Post #1114)

Soapy now clarifies : “Satan by no means OWNS creation… that would be ridiculous. Whatever else may have been said it certainly was NEVER any intention of mine to say so.”

OK. This is progress. We agree that the earth was NOT really, "Satans" "to give" to whom he will.
Do you also now see why your packaging and re- wording of the biblical text you offered readers in post 1114 was not an authentic biblical quote, but instead was a contamination of the authentic text?


2) REGARDING WHAT “KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD" MEANS IN THE GREEK SOURCE TEXT of luke 4:6
Soapy adds another claim : “…‘Kingdoms of the world’ is not just Jerusalem, Persia, Greece, Rome, India, etc… it is ALL CREATION…. Creation is not just planet EARTH!” (post #1123)

This is another strange claim Soapy.
The source Greek text read that Jesus was shown “τας βασιλειας της οικουμενης
Greek Οικουμενης does NOT mean “ALL CREATION”, but it is a Greek term referring to “inhabited” kingdoms. (Though W and sy(h) Greek new testament texts read kingdoms “of the land” – “της γης”)



3) REGARDING THE HABIT OF MAKING HISTORICAL CLAIMS WITHOUT HISTORICAL DATA

Soapy it is not helpful for Christians to simply offer unusual historical theories without having some historical data and logical, rational reasons to make and support them.

I’m sure that you mean well Soapy, but you are starting to make claims that critics of christianity are going to quote as examples as to why christian claims are not to be trusted. Both the critics of Christianity as well as the honest investigators of Christianity will ask simple questions and they are entitled to some reasonable answers rather than to have Christians simply attack them for asking legitimate questions.



4) REGARDING THE HABIT OF ATTACKING THE INVESTIGATOR INSTEAD OF OFFERING DATA

Consider the effect on an honest investigator when, they ask a simple question, instead of replying with some sort of historically coherent data and logical thought, you reply with the following attack : “You write and believe a load of tosh… You aren’t even a Christian nor someone with intent on true Christianity - you sound like a philosopher … Greek … seeking evidence!” (soapy from post #1123)

Soapy, When you make an entirely strange historical claim, OF COURSE people are going to ask for some sort of data as evidence.

It is much more helpful to answer with some sort of logical historical data that explains your reasoning rather than to attack the person who questions your claim.

Meritless attacks will not serve to "bring people to Christ" but is more likely to turn them away from Christian religion.



5) REGARDING WHO GOD SPOKE TO SAYING "LET US CREATE MAN IN OUR OWN IMAGE"
Soapy said : “ But, to answer you… Doesn’t it sounds ridiculous that GOD (who trinity says is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’) should be TALKING TO THE SON…” (post #1123)


Why do you think that your theory that God was talking to Satan, is more logical or more historically coherent than the early Christian belief that the Father was speaking to the Son, the Word, who John 1:1 tells us “was in the beginning with God”?



6) WHO CREATED THE BODY OF ADAM FROM THE DUST OF THE EARTH?
Soapy claimed : "Satan created the body of Adam… "(Post #1114)
Clear said : “This is an unusual theory that I've never heard before. Can you explain this theory of yours and why you think Satan created Adams body instead of God creating Adams body? (post #116)
Soapy replied : “I AM not surprised that you’ve never heard the truth before… it is why you believe as you do.” (post 1123)


Soapy, this is another non-answer and is simply another attack.
Can you offer readers any historical data to support this historical theory?




Clear
φισιδρσιειω
 
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Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
1) REGARDING OWNERSHIP OF THIS WORLD
Soapy said : Now down and worship me and I will give you the kingdom … IT IS MINE TO GIVE TO WHOM I WILL!’" (Post #1114)

Soapy now clarifies : “Satan by no means OWNS creation… that would be ridiculous. Whatever else may have been said it certainly was NEVER any intention of mine to say so.”

OK. This is progress.
Can I also assume it was never your intention to appear to quote scripture in making this statement as well? (post 1123)
I don’t know who you are nor what you want from a belief system that you have no idea about let alone any intention of following a cogent narrative and valid evidence (certainly more cogent and valid than the nonsense social trinity that you have been exposed to and use as your spear point for attacking the truth!).

You ask for ‘Evidence’…. What ‘evidence’ is there that there is a God or Gods … I bet you don’t even know what the title, ‘God’, means… Yet you use the title nonetheless… is that sensible by your standards?

Also, what ‘evidence’ do you have for ANYTHING that you present here? I say ‘None’…:
  • YOU BELIEVE!!
  • You have FAITH that what you read is ‘true’? (what is truth? Who asked that?)
  • You believe the words you read and write mean what YOU want them to mean… true?
And you ask me for ‘evidence’? Jesus was right when he said:
  • “You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,” (John 5:39)
You may not be seeking ‘Eternal Life’ but some other eternal glory, but Jesus goes on to say:
  • “But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
And an apostle wrote:
  • “For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.“ (1 Cor 1: 21-24)
We are not writing theological thesis - I’m not qualified to write tosh the way you write it nor go into ‘greekish’ levels of philosophical wrangtangle. In my writings I ASSUME (or is it PRESUME?) that someone as educated and intelligent as yourself would know the scriptures.. evidently you do not otherwise you wouldn’t be scrabbling for excuses as why you don’t know that Satan IS THE STEWARDING Angel over creation or that in the scriptures, the world, and kingdoms of such, are not just the known world at that time but more widely the WHOLE OF CREATION. Obviously people at the time could not contemplate standing on the moon nor travelling to far flung planets so their concept was limited to what they heard and saw at that time. Needless to say, Jesus would have had a wider concept and known exactly what ‘Creation/The world (and kingdoms thereof) meant. Do you imagine that Jesus was going to die to be simply king over Jerusalem, Rome, and known cities and principalities of the eastern world (eastern from our western view!)?

Oh boy, you have a lot to learn!!
2) REGARDING WHAT “KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD MEANS” IN THE GREEK SOURCE TEXT.
Soapy adds another claim : “…‘Kingdoms of the world’ is not just Jerusalem, Persia, Greece, Rome, India, etc… it is ALL CREATION…. Creation is not just planet EARTH!” (post #1123)

This is another strange claim Soapy.
The source Greek text read that Jesus was shown “τας βασιλειας της οικουμενης
Greek Οικουμενης does NOT mean “ALL CREATION”, but it is a Greek term referring to “inhabited” kingdoms. (Though W and sy(h) texts read kingdoms “of the land” – “της γης”)
Yeah, I incorporated the answer in the previous response
3) REGARDING THE HABIT OF MAKING HISTORICAL CLAIMS WITHOUT HISTORICAL DATA

Soapy it is not helpful for Christians to simply offer unusual historical theories without having some historical data and logical, rational reasons to make and support them.

I’m sure that you mean well Soapy, but you are starting to make claims that critics of christianity are going to quote as examples as to why christian claims are not to be trusted. Both the critics of Christianity as well as the honest investigators of Christianity will ask simple questions and they are entitled to some reasonable answers rather than to have Christians simply attack them for asking legitimate questions.
You think I’m bad? Try talking to a trinitarian…… It’s no wonder your skepticism is as great as it is.. it’s no wonder you seek ‘Evidence’! I guess no one told you yet that Christianity is not based on ‘Evidence’… No? Too bad.

Jesus (scriptures) puts it this way:
  • “Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you”. [Jesus] answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here.” (Matt 12:38-41)
Do you understand, Mr wiseman, what the extract verses mean?

No? Why is that no a surprise to me?

You are those Pharisees and teachers of the law.
Jonah was ‘swallowed by a fish’ (take that as you will)… but was ejected out [after/by the] third day. So Jesus will be dead for the same portion of time… this is prophesy. And similar prophesies are throughout the scriptures. Jesus is showing you that the scriptures contains the very evidence (or ‘signs’) that you seek but are too blind to see despite your high level educational standing in society and academia. Jesus also calls this lacking, a perversity.
Jonah preached to the Ninevehians and they believed him and were saved from their destruction that God had imposed if they did not. Nineveh believed in false Gods, sacrificed in false beliefs, etc. Jonah preached redemption to Nineveh and they believed and yet one greater than Jonah (the scriptures) is here and you do not believe!! You believe in falsities of trinity and nonsensical philosophical constructs and yet the truth is being shown you and you still call for ‘evidence’.

Well, I say to you that the evidence you seek is in the very scriptures that you should have read and understood. Again, evidently you don’t understand enough about what you have read due to the falsities of what you have been taught by trinitarian teachers.

Christianity is a FAITH BASED BELIEF.
4) REGARDING THE HABIT OF ATTACKING THE INVESTIGATOR INSTEAD OF OFFERING DATA

Consider the effect on an honest investigator when, they ask a simple question, instead of replying with some sort of historically coherent data and logical thought, you reply with the following attack : “You write and believe a load of tosh… You aren’t even a Christian nor someone with intent on true Christianity - you sound like a philosopher … Greek … seeking evidence!” (soapy from post #1123)

When you make an entirely strange historical claim, OF COURSE people are going to ask for some sort of data as evidence.
’Historical claims’… don’t make me laugh… Where is you ‘historical claims’ that Jesus created all things but yet is called ‘Son of God’ … and says himself that he can do nothing that he has not seen tut Father do….. THEREFORE the Father would have had to FIRST CREATE before the Son could do so….. and in any case the scriptures historically claims that Jesus said everything he has was given to him by the Father… and that the things he does is because the Father is in him (which is, he has the power of the Father: the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:37-38))
5) REGARDING WHO GOD SPOKE TO SAYING "LET US CREATE MAN IN OUR OWN IMAGE"
Soapy said : “ But, to answer you… Doesn’t it sounds ridiculous that GOD (who trinity says is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’) should be TALKING TO THE SON…” (post #1123)


Why do you think that your theory that God was talking to Satan, is more historical than the early Christian belief that the Father was speaking to the Son, the Word, who “was in the beginning with God”?
Ha ha ha … you are joking, right? JESUS was IN THE BEGINNING with GOD!!???

Wow, do you have ‘evidence’ of this? Ha ha ha…

NO! Do you even hear yourself being trinitarian? If Jesus IS A UNITED PART of an IMMUTABLE THREESOME GOD then how could he be WITH GOD … GOD who IS ‘FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT’?

Do you know the word, ‘Recursion’? Recursion without an exit statement is a perversion…!

Trinity says:
  1. God is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’ as One ALMIGHTY UNITED IMMUTABLE ALL KNOWING ALL POWERFUL GOD
  2. Jesus IS GOD…
  3. Jesus is …. ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’ (1)
So how did the Son, who is God, be with God? Trinity won’t answer to that but instead change their ideology and say it’s because God is ESSENCE of which the three SHARE.

This ESSENCE gives the opportunity to say that ‘Though they are EQUAL they are RANKED… with the Son co-equal to the Father YET SUBORDINATE in rank…’

But then Trinitarians say that Jesus CREATED ALL THINGS [ALL BY HIMSELF] except that he DID NOT because they also say that it was the Father who created THROUGH THE SON… but the Son created FOR HIM[self].

And yet again, the son DIES in excruciating circumstances in order to acquire rulership over ‘what he created’? That GOD (??) should die to save his own creation?

Do you really need EVIDENCE to see that this is all nonsense? Ha! Common sense beats the too-highly educated. Can you not see that all of trinity is a compilation of desperate modifications as each and every claim of trinitarianism is debunked?

In fact, trinitarianism is nothing more than a modified paganistic belief of Man-God like Hercules, Thor, Etc: Sons of God in human form! See Acts 14:12, which Christianity and the truth condemns.

(continue in next post)
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
(continued…)
6) WHO CREATED TO BODY OF ADAM FROM THE DUST OF THE EARTH?
Soapy claimed : "Satan created the body of Adam… "(Post #1114)
Clear said : “This is an unusual theory that I've never heard before. Can you explain this theory of yours and why you think Satan created Adams body instead of God creating Adams body? (post #116)
Soapy replied : “I AM not surprised that you’ve never heard the truth before… it is why you believe as you do.” (post 1123)


Soapy, this is another non-answer and is simply another subtle attack.
Clear
φισιδρσιειω
It is an attack… yes… absolutely! I ask you how you can imagine any other scenario that could possibly fit the situation. There is none…!

Angels are PERFECTLY CAPABLE of creating a human-like body. Why do you rail against this as though it couldn’t possibly be so?

Angels appeared in ‘human-Like’ form when sent by God to speak to humans. These were not physical bodies of course but in appearance only for the most part. No one ever touched an Angel - angels are Spirits… Jesus said to Thomas, ‘Touch me… see that I am not a SPIRIT…’

Strangely, Trinitarians say that Thomas was seeing ALMIGHTY GOD but even more strangely his other ten companion disciples DID NOT! And further, trinity says that Jesus BLESSED Thomas for his (claimed) utterance - yet Jesus ACTUALLY BERATED HIM:

  • ‘Thomas [is it] because you saw [and touched] me that you believe….’
Do you call that a ‘BLESSING’?


No. Jesus went to say who the blessed are:

  • ‘BLESSED ARE THOSE WHK DID NOT SEE [and touch] AND YET [WILL] BELIEVE!’
Now THAT is a blessing!


So why do you think Trinitarians should want to be disingenuous and claim that Jesus blessed Thomas!

The answer is that if they told the truth that Thomas was berated by Jesus then it destroys the claim that they say that Thomas made in claiming Jesus as ‘his Lord, and HIS GOD!

And you quite rightly note that it was THOMAS’ Lord and THOMAS’ GOD…!! Not ours!! Nor in fact any of the other ten disciples nor apostles after that… All references to Jesus by the Apostles in their epistles etc were ‘The Father AND GOD … and [or of] the Lord Jesus Christ’

And you further note that there was no trinity greeting…by ANYONE … ANYWHERE … in ANY SCRIPTURES in the Christian Bible.

Man, empty your house of the demon spirit that haunts your study… but beware:

  • “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left. When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.” (Luke 11: 24-26)
Or perhaps you’ve already been there and this is your house in a worse state than before because clearly you have an inkling if scriptures which is gravely inadequate for debating or even viable discussion.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @Soapy
POST ONE OF TWO

Hi @Soapy



1) SIMPLY ASKING FOR DATA IS NOT AN ATTACK ON YOU
Soapy said : “I don’t know who you are nor what you want from a belief system that you have no idea about let alone any intention of following a cogent narrative and valid evidence (certainly more cogent and valid than the nonsense social trinity that you have been exposed to and use as your spear point for attacking the truth!).”

Soapy, you realize you are not being attacked but instead you are simply being asked a simple question regarding your claims you’ve made?
You claimed that God was talking to Satan when God said : “Let us create man in our own likeness”
You claimed Satan created the body of Adam instead of God.
All that is needed is for you to offer some logic and data regarding why you believe these historical theories are correct. If you say you have no real reason other than you obtained this belief from your parents or pastor, this is fine as well.



Soapy said : “Also, what ‘evidence’ do you have for ANYTHING that you present here? I say ‘None’…:"
Try to realize that I am simply asking why you believe in the two theories you presented.
I have not presented but minimal information in order to explain my questions for you.



2) THE ASSUMPTION THAT OTHERS DO NOT KNOW YOUR DATA
Soapy said : “In my writings I ASSUME (or is it PRESUME?) that someone as educated and intelligent as yourself would know the scriptures.. evidently you do not otherwise you wouldn’t be scrabbling for excuses as why you don’t know that Satan IS THE STEWARDING Angel over creation or that in the scriptures, the world, and kingdoms of such, are not just the known world at that time but more widely the WHOLE OF CREATION."


OK. Lets assume I do not know the scriptures that support your two theories
#1 You claimed that God was talking to Satan when God said : “Let us create man in our own likeness”
#2 You claimed Satan created the body of Adam instead of God.

This is your chance to offer me scriptures that will support these two theories of yours.
What scriptures would you offer to me that support these two specific theories.



3) REGARDING THE HABIT OF MAKING HISTORICAL CLAIMS WITHOUT HISTORICAL DATA

Clear said : "Soapy it is not helpful for Christians to simply offer unusual historical theories without having some historical data and logical, rational reasons to make and support them.
I’m sure that you mean well Soapy, but you are starting to make claims that critics of christianity are going to quote as examples as to why christian claims are not to be trusted. Both the critics of Christianity as well as the honest investigators of Christianity will ask simple questions and they are entitled to some reasonable answers rather than to have Christians simply attack them for asking legitimate questions.

Soapy replied : “You think I’m bad? Try talking to a trinitarian”


Soapy, No one has made a judgement that you are “bad” in connection with these two theories.
I am simply saying that you have offered readers highly unusual historical religious theories and am asking for any rational and logical and historically coherent supporting data for these theories you have offered readers.



4) WHO CREATED TO BODY OF ADAM FROM THE DUST OF THE EARTH?
Soapy claimed : "Satan created the body of Adam… "(Post #1114)
Clear said : “This is an unusual theory that I've never heard before. Can you explain this theory of yours and why you think Satan created Adams body instead of God creating Adams body? (post #116)
Soapy replied : “I AM not surprised that you’ve never heard the truth before… it is why you believe as you do.” (post 1123)
Clear replied : “Soapy, this is another non-answer and is simply another subtle attack.”

Soapy replied : “It is an attack… yes… absolutely! I ask you how you can imagine any other scenario that could possibly fit the situation. There is none…!”



I imagined a scenario where you offered readers logical and historically coherent data to support your historical claims.
I think that scenario would “fit the situation” better than offering attacks and criticisms when you are asked simple historical questions.



5) EXAMPLES OF THE KIND OF HISTORICAL DATA THAT CAN SUPPORT A SPECIFIC HISTORICAL CLAIM
Soapy said : “’Historical claims’… don’t make me laugh… Where is you ‘historical claims’ that Jesus created all things but yet is called ‘Son of God’”


Perhaps I can use my own historical claim and offer some supporting data as an example of the type of information that can be offered.


THE EARLY CHRISTIAN BELIEF THAT THE MESSIAH JESUS WAS THE CREATOR

My own claim is that the predominant Christian tradition in the earliest Judeo-Christian literature was the belief that Jesus was, in concert with the Fathers plan, the creator of material and mortal worlds that we inhabit. The historical data to support this comes from both the scriptures and from Judeo-Christian literature outside the scripture that tells us how the earliest christians interpreted the scriptures and what their beliefs were. For examples :

Though New Testament Hebrews makes the innocuous statement that God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.” (kjv Heb 1:1-2) , I think the concept underlying the words the Son "made the worlds" is often overlooked. However this tradition that the Son (or the son of man, or the word, or the logos, etc) was the creator of the words (as directed by God to do so) was the most common Christian tradition in early literature.

John 1:1-3 Tells us that Jesus, who tells us that he existed in the beginning (“before Abraham was, I am” John 8:58), as the Word and he was in the beginning with God. This same narrative confirms that Jesus, as the pre-existent “Word”, created all things that were created. The narrative reads : In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God and the Word was (a) God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him (παντα δι αυτου εγενετο) and apart from him, nothing was made that was made.

Obviously, if the Messiah, as the Word created the words, then he also existed before the worlds were created.
The prophet enoch spoke of this same tradition and time period, when, before creation, At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits, the head of days." This time period was “… even before the creation of the sun and the moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits.” And he became the Chosen One... "(c.f.1st Enoch 48:1-7)

The tradition of the Son of Man becoming chosen by God as the savior (i.e. the lamb slain before the foundation of the world” and his special servant) is woven into early textual histories just as his role as “the Word of God” (i.e. the “Logos”).

Thus many of the early Hellenistic synagogal prayers reflect God the Father, having create the world through Jesus.

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST TWO OF TWO
For example, one post Eucharistic prayer reads :

#1 vs 2 We give thanks to you, O God and Father of Jesus our Savior...on behalf of the knowledge and faith and love and immortality which you gave to us through Jesus your Son. 4 O Master Almighty, the God of the universe, you created the world and what is in it through him, and you planted deeply in our souls a law; and you prepared for men the things (necessary) for communion;
" (aposCon 7.26. 1-3)

Thus 1 Clement also taught the early Christian saints as he refers to God the Father as ... the creator of the universe...through his beloved servant Jesus Christ, “…through whom he called us from darkness to light, from ignorance to the knowledge of the glory of his name.

Clement who was a colleague of the apostle Peter and taught the Gospel with the apostle Paul, still realized that the Father is the “primal source” since all is done by direction of and in in accordance with the Fathers plan. The Father commands, and the Word or Logos, Jesus, obeys. 1 Clement 59:2-3;

This is the same context of another Hellenistic Synagogal prayer which Blesses God, theKing of the ages, who through Christ made everything, and through him in the beginning ordered that which was unprepared; who separated waters from waters with a firmament, and put a lively spirit in these; 3 who settled the earth (firmly), and stretched out heaven, and ordered the exact arrangement of each one of the creatures..... Vs 18 And the goal of the creative work – the rational living creature, the world citizen – having given order by your Wisdom, you created, saying, “let us make man according to our image and likeness(aposCon 7.34.1-8) ;

Barnabas
speaks of this same close relationship where the Father includes the Son in his plan from this early stage of creation. For the Scripture speaks about us when he says to the Son: “Let us make man according to our image and likeness, and let them rule over the beasts of the earth and the birds of the air and the fish of the sea.” And when he saw that our creation was good, the Lord said: “Increase ad multiply and fill the earth.” These things he said to the Son" The Epistle of Barnabas 6:12;

And, again he refers to the Lord Jesus as Lord of the Whole world” says “And furthermore, my brothers: if the Lord submitted to suffer for our souls, even though he is Lord of the whole world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make man according to our image and likeness, how is it, then, that he submitted to suffer at the hands of men.?“The Epistle of Barnabas 5:5

The early tradition which has Jesus / the word/logos as the main one to whom God the Father was speaking permeates multiple synagogal prayers. When God said Let us make man according to our image and likeness

Even at this early stage of creation, the traditions indicate that the Savior was already mediating creation. Thus yet another Hellenistic Synagogal prayer reads : #4 vs 2 “O Creator, Savior, rich One in favors, Long-sufferer, and supplier of mercy, who do not withdraw from the salvation of your creatures!” as the prayer shifts to honoring the father (vs38) the prayer reads : “ For you are the Father of wisdom, the Creator, as cause, of the creative workmanship through a Mediator...41 the God and Father of the Christ,... (aposCon 7.35.1-10);

As yet another example, Hellenistic Synagogal prayer #5 starts out recognizing this same relationship, saying : O Lord, Almighty One, you created the cosmos through Christ, and marked out a Sabbath day for a remembrance of this; 2 because on it you rested from the works (of creation), in order to give attention to your own laws. “ (aposCon 7.36.1-7);

Such references that were so ingrained in early Christian prayers and texts were incredibly influential and had profound popularity in early Christianity. For example, the very text that Columbus used as a guide to how long his journey across the ocean would take, also references this same relationship between the Lord God and his “word” or his “logos”. It reads :
O Lord, you spoke at the beginning of creation, and said on the first day, ‘Let heaven and earth be made,’ and your word accomplished the work. ...”Again, on the second day you created the spirit of the firmament, and commanded him to divide and separate the waters,...”On the third day you commanded the waters to be gathered together in the seventh part of the earth; six parts you dried up and kept so that some of them might be planted and cultivated and be of service before you. For your word went forth, and at once the work was done. the Fourth Book of Ezra 6:38-44;


There is the Son of man and there is the son of the Son of man. The Lord is the Son of man, and the son of the Son of man is he who is created through the Son of man. The Son of man received from God the capacity to create. He also has the ability to beget.” P 99 The gospel of Phillip;

This early and clear tradition was described in multiple early texts, thus the jewish haggadah relates Adam was created by God and “the word” created the rest : The superiority of man to the other creatures is apparent in the very manner of his creation, altogether different from theirs. He is the only one who was created by the hand of God. The rest sprang from the Word of God.The Haggadah (Man and the world)

Still, regardless of any involved in actual creation, the plan remained the Fathers plan. It was according to his design and his will. Thus it was said that “Logos followed Will for through the logos, Christ created all things. The Secret Book of John (of Sophia);

As the work of the farmer is the plough and the helmsman the guidance of the ship so my work is a song to the Lord ....He created and rested. Created things follow a pattern. They do not know rest. ....And nothing exists without the Lord. He was before anything was, and our worlds were made by his word, his thought and his heart. THE ODES OF SOLOMON ODE 16;

In the Gospel of Bartholomew, Mary also glorified God the Father as a primal creator … exceeding great and all wise, king of the ages, indescribable, ineffable, .who created the breadths of the heavens by your word and arranged the vault of heaven in harmony, who gave form to disorderly matter and brought together that which was separated....” Later, speaking of the logos/word of the Father, she refers to his descent through the seven heavens and explains the context of creation, saying :. The seven heavens could scarcely contain you, but you were pleased to be contained in me, without causing me pain, you who are the perfect Word of the Father, through whom everything was created. The Gospel of Bartholomew ch two


At any rate Soapy, the earliest Judeo-Christian textual traditions, clearly describe the Plan for mans' salvation originated with the father and, once he choses a savior and mediator, Jesus, then Jesus is involved very closely with the father as his servant and "son", to the point of taking on the role of Creator of much of creation. The historical facts don’t mean that these traditions are true or false, but simply that these were the predominant traditions and beliefs in early Judeo-Christianity.


WHAT SORT OF HISTORICAL DATA DO YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT YOUR HISTORICAL CLAIMS?

#1 You claimed that God was talking to Satan when God said : “Let us create man in our own likeness”

#2 You claimed Satan created the body of Adam instead of God.

So, now that you have been given an example of the type of historical data that might support a claim, what data do you want to offer to support these two claims you made?


Clear
φισιφισενεω
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I’m skipping to the end of post 1 because I have already explained the absurdity of the trinitarian claims you seem to be using as your valid text in deference to the truth of what I’m saying to you mainly because on your last part hangs the thread that leads to the truth (and trinity fallacy) of what you appear to be using as your valid texts.

I see you are presenting from the book of Enoch. I’ve heard people present from it before but since it is not in the canon of the Bible commonly used I don’t think it can be used as authentic evidence. So I dismiss your ‘data’ to that effect… it is similar to the Rastafarian societies who claim their belief from the Maccabees.
The tradition of the Son of Man becoming chosen by God as the savior (i.e. the lamb slain before the foundation of the world” and his special servant) is woven into early textual histories just as his role as “the Word of God” (i.e. the “Logos”).
”The tradition of the Son of man BECOMING CHOSEN BY GOD’ as the saviour…”

Trinity, which is what you are claiming as the belief system for your ‘traditional belief’, says that:
  • GOD is the persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in ESSENCE, as ONE GOD
This is a strained claim that holds no validity as any credible linguistic can testify since the definition is RECURSIVE. And, both jokingly AND realistically, (and even TRUTHFULLY) trinity is spoken of BY TRINITY (specifically, that “God”) is INCOMPREHENSIBLE and a MYSTERY.

As you should be able to infer, the trinity concept declares a COMMITTEE of three persons with their committee title of ‘God’.

The committee is couched in ESSENCE (which trinity never explains) and the three persons PARTAKE EQUALLY of this ESSENCE, thus the three are ALL ONE GOD together EQUALLY. Thus, they declare that:
  • The person of the Father is [Essence of] God
  • The person of the Son is [essence of] God
  • The person of the Holy Spirit is [essence of] God]
Think of ESSENCE as the water in a fish bowl containing three fish. Each fish partakes of the same water and therefore is of the same essence (in that the ‘water’ is constituent of all the power and authority and nature)

So NONE of the persons are higher, greater, lesser, stronger, weaker, … they are all three EQUAL IN ALL WAYS.

First question: WHY?

Three ALL POWERFUL, ALL-KNOWING persons.

What point or purpose is there for three such ‘GOD’ persons?

Further, three all powerful, all knowing persons claim that ‘I’ did all things by ‘Myself’?

This is to say, ‘GOD’ said that … or correctly, ‘ESSENCE’ said that!

Always keep in mind the DEFINITION of what trinity claims as ‘GOD’.

So, going back to your text, it is proposed that ONE of these three indomitable persons IS subordinate to another indomitable IN GOD despite being EQUAL by ESSENCE.

Further, this LESSER person CREATES a physical world BY HIMSELF but only on the instructions and instigation of an EQUAL person … and this creation is FOR that lesser person…

At the last in creation this lesser person is supposed to have (I don’t know what your view is) CONSULTED with (…..!! Whom) about the creation of a mortal being IN HIS IMAGE … but no! It is the IMAGE OF GOD… which means, the image of ESSENCE… (keep going back to the definition)… or generously, the IMAGE OF ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’.

Question then:
  • Is mankind ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’ - image of ‘God’?
And how then is the ‘SON’ also ‘IMAGE of GOD’ if the Son IS GOD… RECURSION IS DANGEROUS!

Not only that but the lesser person PUTS OFF his essence and comes into his creation to become a sacrifice for the sin that one in his mortal creation committed. Why would an all knowing all powerful all wise being need to consult with itself (itself?)

Thus many of the early Hellenistic synagogal prayers reflect God the Father, having create the world through Jesus.
Hellenistic Christianity is Pagan.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @Soapy

1) ARGUING AGAINST A TRINITY THEORY WILL NOT SUPPORT AND IS IRRELEVANT TO YOUR TWO CLAIMS

Clear asked : WHAT SORT OF HISTORICAL DATA DO YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT YOUR HISTORICAL CLAIMS
?
#1 You claimed that God was talking to Satan when God said : “Let us create man in our own likeness”
#2 You claimed Satan created the body of Adam instead of God.
So, now that you have been given an example of the type of historical data that might support a claim, what data do you want to offer to support these two claims you made? (post #1128)

Soapy replied : "Trinity, which is what you are claiming as the belief system for your ‘traditional belief’, says that:"

1) Soapy, this is a false statement.
I have never argued that the 3=1 trinity of the later centuries is correct and never suggested that.
It seems you want to avoid admitting you have no historical support for your theories because you keep trying to re-direct to a discussion on the trinity instead of trying to support your actual claims about Satan.
It will be helpful if you can try to stop obsessing about the trinity so that you are able to try to give readers relevant data regarding your historical claims.


2) Soapy, I have given you and readers of the thread multiple examples of the type of historical data you could provide to demonstrate to readers that your historical claims are authentic.

You continue to offer an irrelevant deflection in the form of argument against a trinity model I have never suggested.
I assume you do this to try to retreat to a theme you are comfortable with rather than dealing with a lack of data to support your claims?

If this is correct, then it is safe to say readers can dismiss the two claims above as non-historical and as fringe theories from a fringe perspective.
If you disagree with this assessment, then provide some sort of historical data to support these claims.

I have already dismissed these claims as invalid, (unless you want to try to support them?).




2) REGARDING DISMISSING HISTORICAL CHRISTIANITY BECAUSE IT DIFFERS FROM YOUR OWN CHRISTIANITY

Soapy said : "I see you are presenting from the book of Enoch. I’ve heard people present from it before but since it is not in the canon of the Bible commonly used I don’t think it can be used as authentic evidence." (post #1129)

You are not a religious historian and so I do not expect you to understand the importance of early Christian literature, however, you must understand that your religion is not the same religion as that of the early Christians. Your western canon is not the same as the ancient canon, nor is it the same as the eastern canon (that still has an enoch in it), nor is it the same as the roman Catholic Canon.

Remember also, The earliest Christians did not have the western "New Testament" that you have and their beliefs were not the same as your modern Christian theories. You can certainly argue whether the early Christians were correct or not in their beliefs, but they still believed what they said they believed.

I Enoch was quite popular among the early Christians andwas was of their sacred literature. This is why the New Testament quotes from Jewish Enoch as a source text.
However, it is not simply the historical literary witness from Enoch that provides data regarding early Christian belief and which you dismiss.
You are dismissing multiple other historical witnesses from Christian literature such as :
Heb 1:1-2
John 1:1-3
1st Enoch 48:1-7
aposCon 7.26. 1-3
1 Clement 59:2-3;
aposCon 7.34.1-8
The Epistle of Barnabas 6:12
The Epistle of Barnabas 5:5
aposCon 7.35.1-10
aposCon 7.36.1-7
Fourth Book of Ezra 6:38-44
The gospel of Phillip
The Haggadah
The Secret Book of John
THE ODES OF SOLOMON ODE 16;
The Gospel of Bartholomew ch two

My claim was that the early Judeo-Christian literature demonstrates the early belief that Jesus/the Word/the Messiah, etc was seen as the Creator of much of creation under the direction of the Father.
As I said : "The historical facts don’t mean that these traditions are true or false, but simply that these were the predominant traditions and beliefs in early Judeo-Christianity." (clear in post #1128)

Soapy, If you do not have ANY historical data to offer readers to support your claims that #1 God was speaking to satan when God said : "let us create man in our own likeness" and you second claim that it was Satan that created the body of Adam and not God, then these claims remain part of a fringe theory of a person on the Religious Forums and not an authentic representation of early Christian beliefs.


Clear
φισιφυφινεω
 
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Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Hi @Soapy

1) ARGUING AGAINST A TRINITY THEORY WILL NOT SUPPORT AND IS IRRELEVANT TO YOUR TWO CLAIMS

Clear asked : WHAT SORT OF HISTORICAL DATA DO YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT YOUR HISTORICAL CLAIMS
?
#1 You claimed that God was talking to Satan when God said : “Let us create man in our own likeness”
#2 You claimed Satan created the body of Adam instead of God.
So, now that you have been given an example of the type of historical data that might support a claim, what data do you want to offer to support these two claims you made? (post #1128)

Soapy replied : "Trinity, which is what you are claiming as the belief system for your ‘traditional belief’, says that:"

1) Soapy, this is a false statement.
I have never argued that the 3=1 trinity of the later centuries is correct and never suggested that.
It seems you want to avoid admitting you have no historical support for your theories because you keep trying to re-direct to a discussion on the trinity instead of trying to support your actual claims about Satan.
It will be helpful if you can try to stop obsessing about the trinity so that you are able to try to give readers relevant data regarding your historical claims.


2) Soapy, I have given you and readers of the thread multiple examples of the type of historical data you could provide to demonstrate to readers that your historical claims are authentic.

You continue to offer an irrelevant deflection in the form of argument against a trinity model I have never suggested.
I assume you do this to try to retreat to a theme you are comfortable with rather than dealing with a lack of data to support your claims?

If this is correct, then it is safe to say readers can dismiss the two claims above as non-historical and as fringe theories from a fringe perspective.
If you disagree with this assessment, then provide some sort of historical data to support these claims.

I have already dismissed these claims as invalid, (unless you want to try to support them?).




2) REGARDING DISMISSING HISTORICAL CHRISTIANITY BECAUSE IT DIFFERS FROM YOUR OWN CHRISTIANITY

Soapy said : "I see you are presenting from the book of Enoch. I’ve heard people present from it before but since it is not in the canon of the Bible commonly used I don’t think it can be used as authentic evidence." (post #1129)

You are not a religious historian and so I do not expect you to understand the importance of early Christian literature, however, you must understand that your religion is not the same religion as that of the early Christians. Your western canon is not the same as the ancient canon, nor is it the same as the eastern canon (that still has an enoch in it), nor is it the same as the roman Catholic Canon.

Remember also, The earliest Christians did not have the western "New Testament" that you have and their beliefs were not the same as your modern Christian theories. You can certainly argue whether the early Christians were correct or not in their beliefs, but they still believed what they said they believed.

I Enoch was quite popular among the early Christians andwas was of their sacred literature. This is why the New Testament quotes from Jewish Enoch as a source text.
However, it is not simply the historical literary witness from Enoch that provides data regarding early Christian belief and which you dismiss.
You are dismissing multiple other historical witnesses from Christian literature such as :
Heb 1:1-2
John 1:1-3
1st Enoch 48:1-7
aposCon 7.26. 1-3
1 Clement 59:2-3;
aposCon 7.34.1-8
The Epistle of Barnabas 6:12
The Epistle of Barnabas 5:5
aposCon 7.35.1-10
aposCon 7.36.1-7
Fourth Book of Ezra 6:38-44
The gospel of Phillip
The Haggadah
The Secret Book of John
THE ODES OF SOLOMON ODE 16;
The Gospel of Bartholomew ch two

My claim was that the early Judeo-Christian literature demonstrates the early belief that Jesus/the Word/the Messiah, etc was seen as the Creator of much of creation under the direction of the Father.
As I said : "The historical facts don’t mean that these traditions are true or false, but simply that these were the predominant traditions and beliefs in early Judeo-Christianity." (clear in post #1128)

Soapy, If you do not have ANY historical data to offer readers to support your claims that #1 God was speaking to satan when God said : "let us create man in our own likeness" and you second claim that it was Satan that created the body of Adam and not God, then these claims remain part of a fringe theory of a person on the Religious Forums and not an authentic representation of early Christian beliefs.


Clear
φισιφυφινεω
At last you are showing your colours….

You are not really religious but just someone researching a religious belief that you have no idea about.

It is no wonder then that you do not understand that what you are proposing as ‘Authentic’ is actually nonsense.

You say you are not [supporting] the trinity ideology … yet that is exactly what you are doing.

And when I show you the preposterousness of that ideology you dismiss it without consideration. That is why I said to you earlier that you have never heard the truth and hence find the truth ‘strange’.

It might help if you try to construct a full and Frank end to end storyline of what the Judea-Christian belief tells you.

Of course there are the Sadducees and pharisees who disagree with much of what Jesus was saying… just as you disagree with what I’m saying to you now.

It’s Sad you see that you don’t know how Phar I see!!

Read Isaiah 42:1 and tell me what it says?
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member

REGARDING SOAPYS HISTORICAL CLAIMS

1) Soapy said : " why was Satan wanting to be worshipped by mankind like his Creator, YAHWEH, was worshipped … because it was to HIM that YAHWEH said: ‘Let us create man in our image, in our likeness’ …Post #1114)

2) Soapy claimed : "Satan created the body of Adam… "(Post #1114)


@Soapy

You were asked to support your claim with some sort of historical data.
Your last post was, like the other posts, an attempted redirection with discussion irrelevant to your claim.

There was nothing in your last post that supported your claims.
#1, that God was talking to Satan when God said "Let us create man in our likeness"
and there was nothing to support your claim
#2 : that "Satan created the body of Adam."


Clear
φισιφυνεδρω
 
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Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
REGARDING SOAPYS HISTORICAL CLAIMS
1) Soapy said : " why was Satan wanting to be worshipped by mankind like his Creator, YAHWEH, was worshipped … because it was to HIM that YAHWEH said: ‘Let us create man in our image, in our likeness’ …Post #1114)

2) Soapy claimed : "Satan created the body of Adam… "(Post #1114)


@Soapy

You were asked to support your claim with some sort of historical data.
Your last post was, like the other posts, an attempted redirection with discussion irrelevant to your claim.

There was nothing in your last post that supported your claims.
#1, that God was talking to Satan when God said "Let us create man in our likeness"
and there was nothing to support your claim
#2 : that "Satan created the body of Adam."


Clear
φισιφυνεδρω
Hi Clear, you keep asking for ‘historical data’ to prove what is in the scriptures.

What ‘Historical Data’ do you have that:
  • God spoke to anyone saying, ‘Let there be light’,
  • God said, ‘Let us create man in our image’, and
  • even that God said to Moses that his name was ‘YHWH’ (Hebrew)?
Please answer before giving any other response.
——————————————

I’m sure you will present some quote from the Torah … but those are not ‘Historical Data’.

Those are claimed words from Moses (who wrote the Torah) … THAT YOU BELIEVE ARE TRUE.

How do you prove that what Moses wrote was a true reflection of what he claims God told him … So, it’s all anecdotal.

As a researcher, you claim to be so, you can only go by the evidence you see from ‘Historical Data’. Jesus told the educated, wise men, scholars, leaders of the synagogue, that:
  • “You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.“ (John 5:39-40)
You claim to be a researcher (in scriptural matters) yet you do not understand what you read. It’s like Jesus said to a leader of the synagogue:
  • “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?“ (John 2:8-12)
Change ‘Israel’s Teacher’ to ‘Scriptural Researcher’.
You claim you never heard the truth before yet you have done a huge amount of research. Yet you say, ‘How can this be [that an Angel created the body of Adam]’?

You search the scriptures hoping to find wisdom but when wisdom is shown to you it’s dismissed by you as ‘Strange’!

I ask you: Does your research not show that angels created human bodies for themselves, put their own spirit into those inert bodies, and procreated with human women to create the Nephilim?

Creating a human body is not a ‘strange’ thing to an Angel. But it is ILLEGAL!! Angels create temporary bodies when they come into the physical world in order to converse with humans - the human form is a courtesy to humanity as angels presenting in their capable immensely powerful state would frighten humans to the point of death!

However, a human body created by angels that can be physically interacted with by humans does not have a spirit to activate it. In the case of Adam, only the body of Adam was created - the inspiriting, the enlivening, the bringing to life of the body was done by YAHWEH God who directed his Holy Spirit to do so. Thus, the SOUL came alive - Adam became a living Soul. So also, when the fallen angels put themselves into the bodies they created they enlivened those bodies and interacted with human women - the offsprings of which were hugely greater than those measured by God for earthly life. Thus the nephilim were seen as giants with immense power - but lacking a level of intelligence (The lack of intelligence is not linked to their fathers lacking because angels are highly intelligent but rather that the interaction with humans did not continue that high intelligence)
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @Soapy


You were asked to support your claim with some sort of historical data.
Your last post was, like the other posts, an attempted redirection with discussion irrelevant to your claim.

There was nothing in your last post that supported your claims.
#1, that God was talking to Satan when God said "Let us create man in our likeness"
and there was nothing to support your claim
#2 : that "Satan created the body of Adam."
Soapy responded : “Hi Clear, you keep asking for ‘historical data’ to prove what is in the scriptures.”(post #1133)


1) DEMONSTRATING HISTORICALLY THAT GARDEN OF EDEN HISTORY ACTUALLY OCCURRED VERSUS CONFIRMING THE STORY IS AUTHENTIC CHRISTIANS TRADITION
You are confused.
None of the earliest history from the Garden of eden story can be “proved” as actual occurrence.

However great amounts of early Judeo-Christian literature serves as witness to that the story represents authentic ancient Christian belief.
This makes the belief in these stories historical.
Your theories do not appear in any ancient literature that I am aware of.
This means your theories are not authentic ancient Christian beliefs historically. Your theories simply don't exist in the ancient literature that I know of.

If your theories are not ancient Judeo-Christian, they could be of non-Judeo-Christian origin.
Perhaps they are of pagan or left hand path origin? (I am not very familiar with much of the pagan or left hand literature.)
Since you still haven't told readers, we cannot tell the origin of such theories unless you describe where and how you developed these theories.
If you developed these theories yourself, then they are not historical, but simply represent a modern fringe opinion of a single person.
If they are historical then there will be some sort of historical description SOMEWHERE in the historical literature.
I am simply asking for THAT historical data.



2) BELIEFS THAT ORIGINATE INSIDE THE SCRIPTURE NARRATIVES VERSUS BELIEFS THAT ORIGINATE IN PERSONAL INTEPRETATION OF THE NARRATIVES
You incorrectly claim that I am asking for “historical data to prove what is in the scriptures”.

If you claim that your two theories exist "in the scriptures", then :
Where in the scriptures does it tell us that God was talking to Satan when God said : “Let us create man in our own image”?
Where in the scriptures does it tell us that Satan created the body of Adam?



3) RESPONDING FOR REQUESTS FOR DATA BY OFFERING NON-DATA AND OTHER THEORIES INSTEAD OF HISTORICAL DATA
Soapy, You have a tendency to respond to requests for data by offering more theories rather than data to support these increasing number of theories.

For example, you offer another theory that “Creating a human body is not a ‘strange’ thing to an Angel” instead of historical data to support your theory that “Satan created the body of Adam”.
This added yet another theory without historical support, but did not provide us with any historical supporting data for the original theory.

It is perfectly fine for you to simply admit you developed such theories rom your own interpretation of your Biblical paraphrase, this is perfectly fine. We all develop models of what the texts mean to us personally.
It simply means your theories and interpretations are modern and personal and not historical and orthodox beliefs of early Christianity.

It is quite safe to assume that, since you have no historical data or scripture that supports your theory, then it is a theory that simply makes sense to you in your own logic and that it is not a historical tradition that exists anywhere in early Christian tradition.

I admit that I do not see any advantage of your personal, modern theory over the historical Christian belief that God was NOT speaking to Satan when he said : “Let us create man in our own likeness”.
And I do not see any advantage of your personal modern theory that Satan Created the body of Adam over the Christian belief that God made Adams body.


I hope your own spiritual journey is insightful and wonderful Soapy


Clear
φισισιεινεω
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Hi Clear, you keep asking for ‘historical data’ to prove what is in the scriptures.

What ‘Historical Data’ do you have that:
  • God spoke to anyone saying, ‘Let there be light’,
  • God said, ‘Let us create man in our image’, and
  • even that God said to Moses that his name was ‘YHWH’ (Hebrew)?
Please answer before giving any other response.
——————————————

Im sure you will present some quote from the Torah … but those are not ‘Historical Data’. Those are claimed words from Moses … How do you prove that what Moses wrote was a true reflection of what he claims God told him … So, it’s all anecdotal.

As a researcher, you claim to be so, you can only go by the evidence you see from ‘Historical Data’. Jesus told the educated, wise men, scholars, leaders of the synagogue, that:
  • “You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.“ (John 5:39-40)
You claim to be a researcher (in scriptural matters) yet you do not understand what you read. It’s like Jesus said to a leader of the synagogue:
Hi @Soapy


You were asked to support your claim with some sort of historical data.
Your last post was, like the other posts, an attempted redirection with discussion irrelevant to your claim.

There was nothing in your last post that supported your claims.
#1, that God was talking to Satan when God said "Let us create man in our likeness"
and there was nothing to support your claim
#2 : that "Satan created the body of Adam."
Soapy responded : “Hi Clear, you keep asking for ‘historical data’ to prove what is in the scriptures.”(post #1133)


1) DEMONSTRATING HISTORICALLY THAT GARDEN OF EDEN HISTORY ACTUALLY OCCURRED VERSUS CONFIRMING THE STORY IS AUTHENTIC CHRISTIANS TRADITION
You are confused.
None of the earliest history from the Garden of eden story can be “proved” as actual occurrence.

However great amounts of early Judeo-Christian literature serves as witness to that the story represents authentic ancient Christian belief.
This makes the belief in these stories historical.
Your theories do not appear in any ancient literature that I am aware of.
This means your theories are not authentic ancient Christian beliefs historically. Your theories simply don't exist in the ancient literature that I know of.

If your theories are not ancient Judeo-Christian, they could be of non-Judeo-Christian origin.
Perhaps they are of pagan or left hand path origin? (I am not very familiar with much of the pagan or left hand literature.)
Since you still haven't told readers, we cannot tell the origin of such theories unless you describe where and how you developed these theories.
If you developed these theories yourself, then they are not historical, but simply represent a modern fringe opinion of a single person.
If they are historical then there will be some sort of historical description SOMEWHERE in the historical literature.
I am simply asking for THAT historical data.



2) BELIEFS THAT ORIGINATE INSIDE THE SCRIPTURE NARRATIVES VERSUS BELIEFS THAT ORIGINATE IN PERSONAL INTEPRETATION OF THE NARRATIVES
You incorrectly claim that I am asking for “historical data to prove what is in the scriptures”.

If you claim that your two theories exist "in the scriptures", then :
Where in the scriptures does it tell us that God was talking to Satan when God said : “Let us create man in our own image”?
Where in the scriptures does it tell us that Satan created the body of Adam?



3) RESPONDING FOR REQUESTS FOR DATA BY OFFERING NON-DATA AND OTHER THEORIES INSTEAD OF HISTORICAL DATA
Soapy, You have a tendency to respond to requests for data by offering more theories rather than data to support these increasing number of theories.

For example, you offer another theory that “Creating a human body is not a ‘strange’ thing to an Angel” instead of historical data to support your theory that “Satan created the body of Adam”.
This added yet another theory without historical support, but did not provide us with any historical supporting data for the original theory.

It is perfectly fine for you to simply admit you developed such theories rom your own interpretation of your Biblical paraphrase, this is perfectly fine. We all develop models of what the texts mean to us personally.
It simply means your theories and interpretations are modern and personal and not historical and orthodox beliefs of early Christianity.

It is quite safe to assume that, since you have no historical data or scripture that supports your theory, then it is a theory that simply makes sense to you in your own logic and that it is not a historical tradition that exists anywhere in early Christian tradition.

I admit that I do not see any advantage of your personal, modern theory over the historical Christian belief that God was NOT speaking to Satan when he said : “Let us create man in our own likeness”.
And I do not see any advantage of your personal modern theory that Satan Created the body of Adam over the Christian belief that God made Adams body.


I hope your own spiritual journey is insightful and wonderful Soapy


Clear
φισισιεινεω
Your research is like the Greek seeking wisdom from the scriptures. Because you don’t actually believe what the scriptures are about if is no wonder that you cannot see the reality of what I’m saying to you.

Everything you think you believe….IS JUST THAT… Your belief.

As a Christian who believes in the truth I believe what the scriptures says (where it has not been altered by trinitarian translators) and can see the beginning, the middle, and the end of what is represented in the scriptures. I can see the fallacies that trinity throws up - the same fallacies that you appear to believe despite the fact that it makes no sense at all.

You “believe the lie”, as scriptures says would happen. And just because there are historical lies told by who you say were the ‘early christians’, your ‘only believe by evidence’ causes you to fail to see that these were fallacies… ipso facto, you believe the lie!!

God told his chosen nation, the nation he called his beloved (mimicking the Son in flesh) that they were not to worship multiple Gods like the other nations in and around them… to worship HIM alone as their ONLY GOD!

Trinity claims that this ONLY GOD is actually THREE PERSONS…

Just like you, when I ask you to define what ‘God’ means, you ignore it… because you do not know what the definition of ‘God’ is. If you did know then you would also know that it’s impossible to have THREE PERSONS as a ONE GOD.

In fact, you would know that ‘God’ then in trinity would be a committee of three persons who are EXACTLY ALIKE and thus a pointless committee… An ALMIGHTY Being needs only ONE of themself. Trinity places three identical persons of complete equality as DIFFERENT IN RANK and ABILITY and AUTHORITY… needing to consult with (but only two..) and then having ONLY ONE create all things … yet AT THE COMMAND of another … YET THE COMMANDED IS EQUAL TO THE COMMANDER…

Trinity also says that ‘GOD’ is IMMUTABLE… yet GOD separates one person to become flesh WHILE REMAINING 100% GOD. I don’t think you need research and evidence to tell you that that is complete nonsense.

You might say, ‘I believe all that trinity crap because there is historical evidence of he crap!’

Whoa Ah ..!!! This is your wisdom!?

Your wisdom tells you that GOD had a Son (Created or Procreated?) who was also GOD but was less than GOD but was EQUAL to GOD?

Where in the Torah does it say that God has a Son who is also God…? Where is YOUR EVIDENCE?

And, Let me ask you: Show me an example of something that IS SOMETHING BUT IS EQUAL TO SOMETHING IT IS EQUAL TO!?

Something EQUAL to Something else cannot be the something it is equal two: Jesus cannot BE GOD if he is EQUAL TO GOD!

Come now! Answer me!!

I know, you will say that what I ask is nonsense… right?

Well, that is what you believe if your research persuades you that trinity is true because of your ‘research’.

And, ask yourself… Why was the highest of God’s angels so angered by not being worshipped by man that he sought to destroy man?

Satan, as he is nicknamed, is the stewarding Angel over creation. His high position causes him to sin in desiring worship because he helped to create the very creature man and desires worship from that creature man.

I’ve given you my answers time and time again but you won’t believe it because you never heard it before… how then do you believe anything since everything in your life you never heard at some point!!? And many thing you believe BY FAITH and not by sight or intrinsic EVIDENCE!

But I’ve yet to hear anything you have to say on the matter.
 
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Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Your research is like the Greek seeking wisdom from the scriptures. Because you don’t actually believe what the scriptures are about if is no wonder that you cannot see the reality of what I’m saying to you.

Everything you think you believe….IS JUST THAT… Your belief.

As a Christian who believes in the truth I believe what the scriptures says (where it has not been altered by trinitarian translators) and can see the beginning, the middle, and the end of what is represented in the scriptures. I can see the fallacies that trinity throws up - the same fallacies that you appear to believe despite the fact that it makes no sense at all.

You “believe the lie”, as scriptures says would happen. And just because there are historical lies told by who you say were the ‘early christians’, your ‘only believe by evidence’ causes you to fail to see that these were fallacies… ipso facto, you believe the lie!!

God told his chosen nation, the nation he called his beloved (mimicking the Son in flesh) that they were not to worship multiple Gods like the other nations in and around them… to worship HIM alone as their ONLY GOD!

Trinity claims that this ONLY GOD is actually THREE PERSONS…

Just like you, when I ask you to define what ‘God’ means, you ignore it… because you do not know what the definition of ‘God’ is. If you did know then you would also know that it’s impossible to have THREE PERSONS as a ONE GOD.

In fact, you would know that ‘God’ then in trinity would be a committee of three persons who are EXACTLY ALIKE and thus a pointless committee… An ALMIGHTY Being needs only ONE of themself. Trinity places three identical persons of complete equality as DIFFERENT IN RANK and ABILITY and AUTHORITY… needing to consult with (but only two..) and then having ONLY ONE create all things … yet AT THE COMMAND of another … YET THE COMMANDED IS EQUAL TO THE COMMANDER…

Trinity also says that ‘GOD’ is IMMUTABLE… yet GOD separates one person to become flesh WHILE REMAINING 100% GOD. I don’t think you need research and evidence to tell you that that is complete nonsense.

You might say, ‘I believe all that trinity crap because there is historical evidence of he crap!’

Whoa Ah ..!!! This is your wisdom!?

Your wisdom tells you that GOD had a Son (Created or Procreated?) who was also GOD but was less than GOD but was EQUAL to GOD?

Where in the Torah does it say that God has a Son who is also God…? Where is YOUR EVIDENCE?

And, Let me ask you: Show me an example of something that IS SOMETHING BUT IS EQUAL TO SOMETHING IT IS EQUAL TO!?

Something EQUAL to Something else cannot be the something it is equal two: Jesus cannot BE GOD if he is EQUAL TO GOD!

Come now! Answer me!!

I know, you will say that what I ask is nonsense… right?

Well, that is what you believe if your research persuades you that trinity is true because of your ‘research’.

And, ask yourself… Why was the highest of God’s angels so angered by not being worshipped by man that he sought to destroy man?

Satan, as he is nicknamed, is the stewarding Angel over creation. His high position causes him to sin in desiring worship because he helped to create the very creature man and desires worship from that creature man.

I’ve given you my answers time and time again but you won’t believe it because you never heard it before… how then do you believe anything since everything in your life you never heard at some point!!? And many thing you believe BY FAITH and not by sight or intrinsic EVIDENCE!

But I’ve yet to hear anything you have to say on the matter.
Soapy Good to meet you...
You say... You know definition of ‘God’?! Then you answer.. "It's impossible to have THREE PERSONS as a ONE GOD".
I reply:
Apparently your god is NOT almighty, your god has limits on what he can do! The God of the Christian has NO limits the Christian God is almighty! The Christian God can do all things! He can take the form of a burning bush, of Smoke, of a pillar of fire, a Dove and he can even take the form of a man or of ordinary bread!
Soapy Jews are NOT Christian they are just like you; you also reject Jesus is God! Satan rejects Jesus is God! Soapy just as you do!
My God; the Christian God can do all things; even becoming part of his own creation!

You say..." I believe what the scriptures says" FACT: The scriptures tell you "God is LOVE"! Question Soapy.... Is perfect love: "Love of self" or is perfect love "Love for another"!? Love if self is called "SELFISHNESS"! The Christian God is NOT selfish he is PERFECT!
Soapy The God of the Christian is PERFECT he does all things perfectly! Perfect LOVE can only be: love for another! How can perfect love be selfish!? Answer is: It can't!

For God to be perfect he needs another to love! GOD IS LOVE"! God needs someone other then himself to love otherwise he would not be perfect, then he would Not Be God!
From the beginning there was always a God thus there must always have been two: Love for another is PERFECT LOVE!
Soapy you MUST have two (2) to have perfect love!!
1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

Soapy.. Question "Do you believe the scriptures!?" You say..." I believe what the scriptures says"! Reread the scripture (above) God IS LOVE!
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST ONE OF FIVE

1) SOAPYS RELIGIOUS CLAIMS WE ARE DISCUSSING


POST #1114 Soapy claimed God was speaking to Satan when God said : “Let us create man in our image, in our likeness…
Soapy claimed God did not create the body of Adam, but instead, Satan created Adams’ body. “Satan created the body of Adam… "(Soapy Post #1114)
Post #1116 Clear asked about the origin of and support for these two theories.

Post #1117 Soapy says Satan was smart and repeats his claims but did not tell us regarding the origin nor offered support for these two theories
Post #1120 Clear pointed out Soapy did not answer the questions : “You said satan was smart, this did not mean God spoke to him or that he created Adams body”
Post #1121 Soapy replied : “Luke 4:6” But readers noted soapys quote was NOT from Luke 4:6 and most of the post was simply ad hominems and a repeat of the claim without any added supporting data
Post #1122 Clear compared soapys religion where God spoke to Satan as a partner in creation to the earliest Christian religion where God spoke to Jesus as the Word of John 1:1 as a partner in creation.
Post #1123 Soapy retorted with ad hominems
“You aren’t even a Christian nor someone with intent on true Christianity
“you sound like a philosopher … Greek … seeking evidence!
“… eat philosopher pie!!

“I AM not surprised that you’ve never heard the truth before…
“You’ve listened to trinity nonsense for so long and debunked it so easily that now you hear the truth that you can’t debunk you’ve gone over to believing trinity … “
“Of course, that anecdote will be meaningless to you but, hey ho, one day it will hit you…

but still, the post contained no data

2) REGARDING THE ORIGINAL CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE THAT THE SON CREATED THE WORLD VERSUS SOAPYS CLAIM THAT SATAN CREATED THE WORLD

Post #1125 Soapy replied : ’Historical claims’… don’t make me laugh… Where is you ‘historical claims’ that Jesus created all things but yet is called ‘Son of God’ “
In Posts #1127 and #1128 Clear provided quotes from scriptures and from early Christian literature supporting original Christian doctrine regarding their belief in the Son as creator with God
Heb 1:1-2

John 1:1-3
1st Enoch 48:1-7
aposCon 7.26. 1-3
1 Clement 59:2-3;
aposCon 7.34.1-8

The Epistle of Barnabas 6:12
The Epistle of Barnabas 5:5
aposCon 7.35.1-10
aposCon 7.36.1-7
Fourth Book of Ezra 6:38-44
The gospel of Phillip
The Haggadah
The Secret Book of John
THE ODES OF SOLOMON ODE 16;
The Gospel of Bartholomew ch two


Post #1129 Soapy argues against the doctrine of the 3=1 trinity, but still, offered no data to support his version of Christian religion
Posts #1130-1134 – still, no data from Soapy to support his two religious theories


3) SOAPYS NEW QUESTION : WHY WAS THE ANGEL “LUCIFER” ANGERED SUCH THAT HE FELL AND BECAME AN ENEMY TO GOD AND MANKIND

Post #1135 soapy said : “And, ask yourself… Why was the highest of God’s angels so angered by not being worshipped by man that he sought to destroy man?”

Soapy, perhaps I can both answer this historical question regarding historical Christian beliefs from historical literature as well as offer you an example of the type of historical data you could search for in order to support your own religious theories

While modern Christians have few answers regarding the “origin of evil” such as the “fall of Lucifer” and his becoming satan, the early Christian traditions are quite clear, coherent and detailed. The closer one returns to the earliest doctrines, then the more they agree with early Jewish AND Islamic traditions on this subject. As an example, let me tie in the early Christian belief that Adam was created in the visual image of God with the Early Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition concerning the Fall of the Arch-angel Lucifer and thus, the “creation” of him as “Satan”, the enemy of God.


A) THE FALL OF LUCIFER IN EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN-ISLAMIC TRADITION


In response to an inquiry as to the origin of Satan, I saw a comment from a Christian who was explaining to an investigator of Christianity, the origin of Satan as a source of evil in God’s creation. The christian commented :

...there's nothing, scripturally speaking, that addresses the question of the origin of evil (or Satan, if you prefer). The only hint is in Genesis 3 where the serpent (in later tradition -- again without scriptural support -- identified as the devil) appears quite suddenly as part of an apparently very good creation. Nary a word of comment on the origins of this creature....

That’s it, in toto.

Such statements reveal a lack of a framework for understanding the basic issues surrounding what is going on with all of this “good” and “evil” that none of us avoid inside of creation; and demonstrate the value of turning to the earliest Christian teachings and their writings on such issues (in the period before many of the important doctrines were lost or changed). I do not believe that modern christian theory is as coherent; nor as understandable as the early Judao-Christian doctrines regarding Lucifers origins and motives for his fall from heaven.

However, I think the early christian teachings from early texts regarding the fall of Lucifer are important as such issues apply to Satan and to the principle of evil itself. I felt that a discussion of early Jewish, Christian and Islamic texts would demonstrate that the early Judeo-Christians has much greater detail and depth in their traditions and worldviews as compared to most modern Christian interpretations.

Though there are many modern theories regarding how Lucifer, an archangel with some authority became Satan, an enemy to all righteousness, there is a great deal of early literature regarding what the early christians themselves believed regarding the Origin and motives of Lucifer (his “name” before he became “satan” or the “devil”...) The early traditions concerning the Fall of Lucifer (as well as other important traditions) are tied into the tradition that Adam was created in the visual image of the Lord God.

I think it is an important historical context to keep in mind that Lucifer’s “fall” did not happen suddenly nor in a contextual vacuum. That is, the “good” Archangel Lucifer did didn't simply wake up in a bad mood and decide to be “evil” one morning. But instead, Lucifers fall was more logical and it occurred in the context of several frustrating controversies, (some more important than others).

Though restorationist readers will be aware of other controversies, the most famous controversy in the ancient texts occurred during the honoring of Adam which itself takes place in the greater context of God the Fathers Plan.

To best understand this cascade of events, I think one should start with God’s original plan and consider events from there forward.

B) It is contextually important to understand that, to this ancient christian theology :

1) The spirits of angels, mankind and God existed prior to mortality

2) God the Father’s plan entailed moral advancement of the spirits of men

3) The Honoring of Adam was logical in view of his role in God’s plan for mankind

4) Lucifer’s “rebellion” was more than a refusal to “honor Adam”.

5) Lucifer’s “punishment” relates to his rebellion against the plan AND God himself

6) Lucifer’s current “dominion” plays a “role” in God’s ultimate plan



Without considering conditions PRIOR to Lucifer’s rebellion, then the rebellion cannot be understood as the ancient Christians (who wrote the texts) understood it. Without considering the nature of the rebellion, then Lucifer’s punishment and his current dominion cannot be understood as the ancient Christians understood and taught such doctrines. #210

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Clear

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POST TWO OF FIVE

A) GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN FOR MAN, (WHICH LUCIFER ULTIMATELY REBELS AGAINST)

In this early Judeo-Christian theology, Long before the creation of this world, God was in the midst of spirits. Early textual testimonies describe innumerable spirits existing in “heaven” before creation and, they describe what God intended to do with these innumerable spirits.

Regarding his vision of pre-creation heaven, Enoch records : "No one could come near unto him [God the Father] from among those that surrounded the tens of millions (that stood) before him". (1 En 14:23). Enoch continues : Quote: "I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits". (1 Enoch 40:1-2)"

At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, .... Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this that this place, into this and this body. (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul) God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth according to such early texts.



B) BECAUSE GOD WAS INTELLIGENT AND POSSESSED POWER AND CHARITY, HE DEVISED A PLAN SO AS TO ALLOW OTHER SPIRITS TO ADVANCE


The ancient Jewish doctrine that God had instituted a divine plan is interwoven into multiple texts : "Before all things came to be, he [God] has ordered all their designs" (Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q255-264)

"....I (the Father), in the midst of the light (glory), moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation." (2nd Enoch 24:4)


The Prophet Enoch describes the earliest stages of this plan before it was known among the heavenly host : "for not even to my angels have I explained my secrets, nor related to them their origin, nor my endless and inconceivable creation which I conceived." (2nd Enoch 24:3) In these descriptions of his Plan, God the Father seems to take great care in both the planning of and in ensuring the deep involvement of the Heavenly Hosts (for whose benefit the plan existed).

Though these texts tell us that all the spirits of men existed before the creation of the earth, the spirits were in no way equals (just as we are not equal now). Among them were the more intelligent and gifted; i.e. those who were more full of grace and truth than others. In addition to Lucifer, God the Father and Adam, all other key players are all present in this pre-mortal realm.

In Enoch’s vision, he also see’s the pre-mortal Jesus with the Father. Upon seeing the two together, Enoch asks who this individual (Jesus) is and what role he has in the Father's Plan :
Quote:"At that place, I saw the Beginning of days [i.e. the Father] And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one – from among the angels –who was going with me,..."Who is this and from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?" And he answered me and said to me, "This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells...the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the spirits in eternal uprightness...." (1 Enoch 46:1-4)

It is in this context that the Apostolic Father Ignatius taught that among those spirits was "Jesus...who before the ages was with the father..” (Ignatius :6:1). The ancient records show the Father and Jesus, from early on, possessed a great similarity and unity. Jesus was given greater authority and administrated much of the Father’s plan from early on (God’s "right hand" was one of the Pre-Creation Jesus’ appellations). Diogenes relates this ancient doctrine :

"And when he revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of [us] ever would have expected.. So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his child... (Diog 301:8-11)


C) DESPITE CONCERNS, THE PLAN WAS GENERALLY, RECEIVED JOYOUSLY

Ancient pre-creation histories describe that the Father’s plan, revealed to these spirits before the foundations of the earth were laid was generally joyously received. God’s question to Job was not merely rhetorical, but was a contextual reminder to Job of an actual occurrence.

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)

The advancement entailed by God's plan was something the spirits wanted : Enoch says that he saw :
"...the fountain of righteousness,...surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink (of the water) and become filled with wisdom. (Then) their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones.

The greater number of spirits who witnessed the wisdom and intelligence and glory available to them WANTED to drink from that same wisdom and take their place with others who were holy, righteous and elect?



The Zohar relates mortality to a moral education received by coming to mortality :
...why do they [the spirits of mankind] descend to this world only to be taken thence [back to heaven] at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day..... “ (The zohar - A seal upon your heart)



D) GOD’S PLAN CONTINUED TO PROGRESS


God’s plan moved forward and preparations were made over a great deal of time including a physical creation in preparation for mortality.

Though multiple creation accounts exist, the earlier Christian accounts make it clear both that God created the Planets and Stars (often translated “orbs” or “circles”) out of “lessor”, or more chaotic material, and, importantly, he commissioned the Pre-creation Jesus (Often called “the word” or his “right hand”) to administrate over this material creation of an earth which will then be populated with embodied spirits for their education and testing.

Thus the early Synagogal prayer reflects this doctrine :
We give thanks to you, O God and Father of Jesus our Savior...O Master Almighty, the God of the universe, you created the world and what is in it through him,... (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - thanksgiving following Communion (aposCon 7.26. 1-3) Or prayer #3 Blessed are you, O Lord, King of the ages, who through Christ made everything, and through him in the beginning ordered that which was unprepared” (i.e. chaotic matter) (#3 prayer That meditates upon God’s Manifold Creative Power) (aposCon 7.34.1-8) or prayer #4 that addresses God the Father : For you are the Father of wisdom, the Creator, as cause, of the creative workmanship through a Mediator....” #4 (aposCon 7.35.1-10);


The Jewish Geninza 4Q texts are clear that, despite delegation of important roles, the plan IS the Father’s plan and that he
determined all your works before you created them, together with the host of your spirits and the assembly of your holy ones… - all your designs for the end of time..God counsels with those whose involvement he wants, but it remains God the Father's plan : Moreover the Holy One, blessed be he, does nothing in his world without first taking counsel with them; then he acts, as it is written” (3Enoch :4 283).

This early Jewish teaching that the physical creation was accomplished for the purpose of advancing mankind is the same tradition as the early Christians held. New Testament Hermas taught : Quote:
"...don’t you understand how great and mighty and marvelous God’s glory is, because he created the world for the sake of man, and subjected all his creation to man..” (Her 47:2-4).

The physical creation of the earliest ancient accounts was accomplished by taking “lessor” or more chaotic matter, and organizing it into a “higher” or more organized and purposeful form such as the organized earth had. Old Testament Enoch describes this same process:
And I called out a second time into the very lowest things, and I said, ‘Let one of the (in)visible things come out visibly, solid.’..” (2nd Enoch 26:1).

From this lesser organized, chaotic debris, the earth and other planets were formed :
And thus I made solid the heavenly circles (orbs). ...And from the rocks I assembled the dry land; and I called the dry land Earth. “ (2nd Enoch 28:1-2).

And thus, in company with the Pre-Mortal spirit of Jesus (called "the word” or “the right hand” in some accounts), the Father accomplished creation.
I said, “O Lord, you spoke at the beginning of creation, and said on the first day, ‘Let heaven and earth be made, ‘ and your word accomplished the work...Again, on the second day, you created the spirit of the firmament and commanded him to divide and separate the waters...On the third day you commanded the waters to be gather together...For your word went forth, and at once the work was done. “ (4th Enoch 3:38-42).

I believe that is it partly this closely unified and joint administration between God the Father and his Son that contributes to much of the later confusion as to the relationship between Father and Son in later doctrines. Whatever the truth is, in such early texts it is clearly taught that they are two individuals that are profoundly unified, that is, they are "one' in purpose.

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Clear

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POST THREE OF FIVE


Given the grandeur and the pure intent and profound implications of God’s plan for mankind, it may start to make some sense of what it meant for Lucifer, not only to refuse to take part in the plan, but to openly rebel against the plan, and ultimately rebel against God the Father himself.


THE EARLY TEXTUAL CHRISTIAN TRADITIONS MAKES CLEAR THAT, IT IS PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE HONOR DUE ADAM AND HIS ROLE IN INAUGURATING THE FATHERS' PLAN THAT HE WAS CREATED IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF HIS GOD. AND IT WAS PARTLY BECAUSE HE WAS CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF THE LORD GOD THAT SPIRITS, ANGELS AND ALL OTHERS WERE COMMANDED BY THE LORD GOD TO HONOR ADAM, WHO WAS CREATED IN GOD'S OWN IMAGE. These other doctrines and traditions do not stand apart from the doctrine that adam was created in God's image, but many other prominent doctrines DEPEND UPON and draw from this first doctrine. Many such doctrines have interconnections.



E) LUCIFER’S REFUSAL TO HONOR ADAM WAS AN ORTHODOX TEACHING IN EARLY CHRISTIAN RELIGION


Regarding my referencse to Lucifer’s refusal to honor Adam. It is important to me that readers understand that I did not simply pick out a single “obscure” reference describing this story. Rather, this early doctrine was taught is described in many texts over a great deal of time and space.

For examples: Sedrach relates : You commanded your angels to honor Adam, but he who was first among the angels disobeyed your order and did not honor him: and so you banished him because he transgressed your commandment and did not come forth (to honor) the creation of your hands." (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7)

The Christian text “Life of Adam and Eve” relates the same incident : Speaking to Adam, the Devil said :...because of you I am expelled and deprived of my glory which I had in the heavens in the midst of angels, and because of you I was cast out onto the earth.” 2 Adam answered, “What have I done to you, and what is my blame with you? Ch 13 “The devil replied,...It is because of you that I have been thrown out of there. 2 When .......Michael brought you and made (us) honor you in the sight of God, and the Lord God said, ‘Behold Adam! I have made you in our image and likeness.’ Ch 14 3 And I answered, ‘I do not honor Adam.’ ...’Why do you compel me? I will not worship one inferior and subsequent to me. I am prior to him in creation; before he was made, I was already made. He ought to worship me.’ 15 1 When they heard this, other angels who were under me refused to honor him. (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 12: 1-2, 13:13, 14:2-3; 15:1-3; 16:1-3)

The early Christian Text “Cave of Treasures” relates :“And when the prince of the lower order of angels saw what great majesty had been given unto Adam, he was jealous of him from that day, and he did not wish to honor him. And he said unto his hosts, "Ye shall not honor him, and ye shall not praise him with the angels. It is meet that ye should worship me, because I am fire and spirit; and not that I should worship a thing of dust, which hath been fashioned of fine dust."

Jewish Enoch relates, in the context of this Lucifer’s rebellion : the devil understood how I wished to create another world, so that everything could be subjected to Adam on the earth, to rule and reign over it. ....And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam. (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)

Jewish Haggadah (having Talmudic origins) also relates :
The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels...After Adam had been endowed with a soul, God invited all the angels to come and pay him reverence and homage. Satan, the greatest of the angels in heaven,....refused to pay heed to the behest of God, saying, “You created us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now you command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which you fashioned out of the dust of the ground!” God answered, “Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than you.”... (The Haggadah -The Fall of Satan)

The text then relates the "battle of wits" between Lucifers spirit and Adam's spirit where Lucifer is bested and loses "face".

Christian Bartholomew also confirms the story as Lucifer says :
And when I came from the ends of the world, Michael said to me: ‘Honor the image of God which he has made in his own likeness.’ But I said: ‘I am fire of fire. I was the first angel to be formed, and shall I worship clay and matter?” And Michael said to me: ‘Honor [him], lest god be angry with you.’ I answered: ‘God will not be angry with me, but I will set up my throne over against his throne, and shall be as he is [Isa. 14:14f]. ‘ then god was angry with me and cast me down,...” (The Gospel of Bartholomew Ch IV)


This doctrinal controversy is not simply Jewish and Christian in it’s nature, but it’s also ISLAMIC, as confirmed by the Sixth Century Holy Quran text : "..And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him." So, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together. Except Iblis (Satan), - he refused to be among the prostrators. (Sura 15:28-31)

In Sura 20 :
And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated (all) except Iblis (Satan), who refused. (Sura 20:116)

In Sura 38 :
(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay". So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers. (Sura 38:71-74)

In Sura 7 :
And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate. (Allah) said: "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." (Sura 7:11-12)

In Sura 18 :
And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord.... (Sura 18:50)

The point in repeating this doctrine from so many different ancient sources and versions is to show that this specific controversy and it’s relation to the doctrine of the “Origin” of Satan, is VERY ancient, the doctrine is VERY widespread among a large group of ancient literature, and the doctrine is VERY “orthodox” to the ancient Christians and other religious groups as well.




F) THE HONOR DUE ADAM WAS PERFECTLY LOGICAL IN VIEW OF ADAM'S IMPORTANT ROLE IN GOD THE FATHER'S PLAN

It ought to be perfectly clear that as milestones were reached in the moving forward of God’s Plan for the spirits of mankind, the inauguration of mortality was an incredibly important phase that all spirits had long been anticipating. Thus, the “honoring of Adam” was not simply an arbitrary and spontaneous “office party” thrown at a whim, but it was a recognition of the culmination of organization and creation over a great deal of time and the inauguration of the opening phase of mortality of all mankind..




G) THE NATURE OF LUCIFER’S REFELLION IN THE CONTEXT OF GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN.


The nature of Lucifer’s punishment indicates the seriousness of what he did : When Enoch tells the fallen angel Azaz’el that
There will not be peace unto you; a grave judgment has come upon you. They will put you in bonds because you have taught injustice (1st Enoch 13:1-3), Enoch is not speaking of mere “naughtiness” or mere “disagreement” with God’s plan. Such fallen angels were told judgment is passed upon you. 5 From now on you will not be able to ascend into heaven unto all eternity, (1st Enoch 14:3-5) because their rebellion had much greater ramifications than simple disagreement with God.

The jewish Haggadah describes the “wary reluctance” some souls experienced to leave a pre-mortal “heaven” to be born into mortality. Speaking this sort of “reluctance” the Zohar describes how God, tells a spirit to
Go now, descend into this and that place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)

Such “unconfidence” is not “rebellion” and such souls are given encouragement and still sent into mortality through birth according to God’s plan. However, just as “reluctance” is not “rebellion”, Lucifer’s “rebellion” was not merely “reluctance”. Lucifer’s rebellion was described as a willful and confident full fledged disagreement which evolved into a plan for an asaultive counter “coup” having a DIFFERENT administration under a DIFFERENT King and DIFFERENT goals to the ultimate effect of nullifying God’s initial plan. In the context of controversies such as Lucifer’s “last straw” over Adam, one can better understand the sparks that made up the fires of the Rebellion or “war in heaven” itself.

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Clear

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POST FOUR OF FIVE

In reference to a different, earlier controversy regarding the knowledge, that IF man, having free will, was sent to earth, then mankind would certainly commit moral atrocities. This was known long before the fall of Adam, and in fact, long before Adam was placed into the Garden. 3rd Enoch relates one of the fallen angels complaints against God the Father and his plan :

"Then three of the ministering angels, Uzzah, Azzah, and Aza’el, came and laid charges against me in the heavenly height. They said before the Holy One, blessed be he, ‘Lord of the Universe, did not the primeval ones give you good advice when they said, Do not create man!’ The Holy One, blessed be he, replied, ‘I have made and will sustain him; I will carry and deliver him.’ (3rd Enoch 4:6)

Such references hint of the other controversies and together, they offer a coherent history regarding such related controversies and their relationship to Lucifers Fall.


Regarding the current Controversy with Adam :

Jewish Haggadah relates that
The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels......You created us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now you command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which you fashioned out of the dust of the ground!” God answered, “Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than you.”... (The Haggadah -The Fall of Satan)

This Haggadic summary illuminates the growing anger in an envious Lucifer. This haggadic text goes on to relate a subsequent battle of wits between the spirits of Lucifer and Adam which leaves Lucifer publicly upstaged and discontented and frustrated. Much like the one-sided debates we sometimes see on this public forum when a poster loses face. How would an envious, upstaged and angry Lucifer be expected to react? Especially given that
the devil understood how I wished to create another world, so that everything could be subjected to Adam on the earth, to rule and reign over it.” 2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1;

As the earth was created and it’s preparations finished and the time arrived for God’s plan to be inaugurated, the mood among the hosts of heaven becomes one of anticipation and excitement. It is under these circumstance that the body for Adam is created and joined to his spirit and God commanded that Adam was to be honored for his role in inaugurating God’s plan upon the earth. Michael calls all the angels to honor Adam for what he is about to do. A seemingly “fed up” Lucifer arrives to the occasion with a bad attitude.


As I’ve pointed out, there are many, many confirming versions of this same story. In these early christian texts, the anger and frustration of Lucifer does not remain a private gripe, but becomes an open rebellion.

... one from the order of the archangels deviated, together with the division that was under his authority. He thought up the impossible idea, that he might place his throne higher than the clouds which are above the earth, and that he might become equal to my power. 5 And I hurled him out from the height, together with his angels.” (2nd Enoch 29:3-5)

The Book of John the evangelist confirms Satan’s presumption in similar languageHe set his seat above the clouds of heaven”. Bartholemew records this occurrence in almost the same words as the other versions :I will set my throne over against his throne” (bar 4:55) ;

It is for carrying out the actual plan and organized attempt to set up [his] throne above the stars of heaven and ..be like the Most High that Lucifer was punished. (“Stars” was a euphamism for the greatest angels). Speaking of Lucifer and the angels who allied with him the ancient psalm read :Now as they were warring with each other, they made bold to attack the land of Light, considering themselves capable of conquering it. Yet they know not that what they thought will recoil upon their own heads. But there was a host of angels in the Land of Light which possessed the power to issue forth and overcome the enemy of the Father, whom it pleased that through the Word that he would send, he should subdue the rebels who desired to raise themselves above what was more exalted than they.... (The Coptic Psalm-book - Let us worship the spirit of the paraclete) Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11) p 328; )

This attempted “coup” would have divided heaven and created a rival Kingship over a rival group in heaven. It was an attempt to set up a rival administration with it’s own rival plan for man. This was no mere show of minor “disloyalty”. Also, one should note the doctrine that the father delegated the successful battle which overcame Lucifer “through the Word” (who was his son). The earthly Devil had undergone multiple prior perceived offenses as the pre-mortal Lucifer. AND, his memories of pre-mortal happenings were not “veiled” from him, as Adams were. Certain battle lines were drawn long, long ago.


It is in this larger set of contexts that it was said : And the Rebel meditating these things Fol. 5b, col. 2 would not render obedience to God, and of his own free will he asserted his independence and separated himself from God. But he was - swept away out of heaven and fell, and the fall of himself and of all his company from heaven took place ...because he turned aside from the right way, ... he lost the apparel of his glory. And behold, from that time until the present day, he and all his hosts have been stripped of their apparel,
(Cave of Treasures, chapt on “The Revolt of Satan”)

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