Was Muhammad The Greatest Moral Example?

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Abu Bakr you can testify his character ?

No I can't. I also can't help but feel we're talking at cross-purposes here.

A good point became of it , I don't mind being little out on narrative on this occasion or any other if progress is made.

What good point would this be?

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

When we compare what has happened over the last 2000 years, it seems to me like Islam is competing with the Christian idea of jesus in the Bible...

The Christians want a perfect example of morality, so the Muslims create the same ideology; doesn't matter if there are tons of discrepancies in that line of thought, they've made it fit.

Yet considering previous religions, it is quite clear a trend of mankind to make perfect idols out of people.

2000 years ? Stonehenge older than this , temple in turkey 12k years old , Wall in Syria 11,000 is nothing in Israel of that age .
Christ rewrites everything but not everyone understand that .

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

No I can't. I also can't help but feel we're talking at cross-purposes here.




What good point would this be?

Fathers marrying off daughters as young as possible was acceptable

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Christianity and Islam have the most in common.
Is minor problem with divinity of Jesus and Christians think sharia law bit barbaric .
However without doubt Islam/Christian is same God.
Unless he had 2 prophet called Jesus .
Those people of over 12,000 years ago had a religion fact
Fact Islam is off the same region that's described as cradle of civilisation .

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Christianity and Islam have the most in common.
Is minor problem with divinity of Jesus and Christians think sharia law bit barbaric .
However without doubt Islam/Christian is same God.
Unless he had 2 prophet called Jesus .
Those people of over 12,000 years ago had a religion fact
Fact Islam is off the same region that's described as cradle of civilisation .

In supporting one argument try not to condemn another , civilization was as such , Christ here we go died saves long explanation for all previous sins and grievances

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

He dies again 2 weeks time an I've done full 40days contemplation for your souls , I'm outa here soon ,to never return to such depths .
2 weeks time y'all get clean slate at my expense don't screw it up

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Fathers marrying off daughters as young as possible was acceptable

Okay. Yeah, that's immoral now. To us. The problem is that Muslim societies in this day and age continue to view it as acceptable & still do it because 'it's Islamic' - because Muhammed did it. Pakistan recently blocked a law forbidding girls to be married while under the age of 18 because such a law was viewed as un-Islamic.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...ics-block-un-Islamic-child-marriage-bill.html

This problem stems from Muslims viewing Muhammed as a man whose example should be followed for all time.

 

[DawudTalut]

Muslims believe that their prophet is the greatest example of a man ever to walk this earth

Peace be on you.
A grand Prophet (p.b.u.h.) was being waited before Islam:
e.g.
From our understanding:
From Deut. 33:2 : he shined forth from mount Paran and he came with ten thousands saints.
More @ http://www.alislam.org/books/in-bible/

Muslims believe Holy Prophet was greatest because:
i- his coming is called as if Lord came from Sinai. Deut 33:2
ii-In Quran he is exclusively and uniquely said to have been sent for all humanity.
[ch7:v159] Say, ‘O mankind! truly I am a Messenger to you all from Allah to Whom belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. There is no God but He. He gives life, and He causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Prophet, the Immaculate one, who believes in Allah and His words; and follow him that you may be rightly guided.’

(this despite some also saying that all prophets are equal, but we'll put that aside for a while).

Not said by some, Quran itself said so:
[2:286] This Messenger of Ours believes in that which has been revealed to him from his Lord, and so do the believers: all of them believe in Allah, and in His angels, and in His Books, and in His Messengers, saying, ‘We make no distinction between any of His Messengers;’ and they say, ‘We hear, and we obey. We implore Thy forgiveness, O our Lord, and to Thee is the returning.’

=> It means all Messnegers come from same God thus there should be no difference among them in this respect.

[2:254]These Messengers have We exalted, some of them above others:..............

=> It means It is God Who knows the sphere of work of which Messenger is bigger.

e.g. Sphere of work of Prophet Noah was not equal to that of Prophet Moses. [on them be peace]

Muslims, I challenge you to prove to me that Muhammad was a better example of a human being than anyone before or after him.

He rose through extreme weakness when his parent passed away in beginning, to extreme power as greatest Prophet and Ruler.
"God Almighty divided the life of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, into two phases; one phase of hardship and calamities and sufferings, and the other of victory; so that during the phase of sufferings those high moral qualities might be demonstrated which come into play at such times, and during the phase of victory and authority those high moral qualities might be illustrated which cannot be displayed in the absence of authority. Thus both these types of qualities were perfectly illustrated in the life of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him,..."
Ref: Pages 214 onward @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf

No other Prophet than Holy Prophet (pbuh) had seen all aspects of human life.

I am of the opinion that he was an immoral religious fanatic who practiced senseless violence. I'll start with a couple of quotes from

Ibn Ishaq, Biographer of Muhammad:

...............

There should not be full reliance on Ibne Ishaq:
"The most widely discussed criticism of his sīra was that of his contemporary Mālik ibn Anas.[3] Mālik rejected the stories of Muhammad and the Jews of Medina on the ground that they were taken solely based on accounts by sons of Jewish converts.[21] These same stories have also been denounced as "odd tales" (gharāʾib) later by ibn Hajar al-Asqalani.[21] Mālik and others also thought that ibn Isḥāq exhibited Qadari tendencies, had a preference for Ali (Guillaume also found evidence of this, pp. xxii &xxiv),[3] and relied too heavily on what were later called the Isrā'īlīyāt. Furthermore, early literary critics, like ibn Sallām al-Jumaḥī and ibn al-Nadīm, censured ibn Isḥāq for knowingly including forged poems in his biography,[3] and for attributing poems to persons not known to have written any poetry.[13] The 14th-century historian al-Dhahabī, using hadith terminology, noted that in addition to the forged (makdhūb) poetry, Ibn Isḥāq filled his sīra with many munqaṭiʿ (broken chain of narration) and munkar(suspect narrator) reports.[22]........"
Ref; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Ishaq#Views_of_his_S.C4.ABrat_Ras.C5.ABl_All.C4.81h

He had people put to death for mocking him ('Asma' bint Marwan, Abu Afak, Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf, Khalid ibn Sufyan, the list goes on).

He had more than four wives at one time (his revelations only allowed 4 wives max. he had up to 11)

He had sex with a nine year old.

He smashed all the Pagans' idols.

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

Much of these allegations have been refuted several times.
e.g. @ http://www.muhammadfactcheck.org/
For
Myth Index
murdered Jews
permitted to lie
marriage to A'isha
and more
====

The period of the Crusades, when the fictional Mahound was established, was also a time of the great strain and denial in Europe. This is graphically expressed in the phobia about Islam.
(By Karen Armstrong in her book, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, page 27).

Muhammad (s.a.w.) in the eyes of non-Muslims. They are great names:

PRINGLE KENNEDY

MICHAEL H HART

SIR THOMAS CARLYLE

J. H. DENISON

S.P. SCOTT

LAMARTINE

KAREN ARMSTRONG

@ https://www.alislam.org/library/links/eyes.html


Prof K. S. Ramakrishna Rao, Head of the Department of Philosophy, Government College for Women University, Mysore, Mandya‑571401 (Karnatika)

@ https://www.alislam.org/library/mohammadtheprophet.html


===

An apology for Mohammed and the Koran : Davenport, John ...

https://archive.org/details/apologyformohamm00dave

Internet Archive

Internet Archive BookReader - An apology for Mohammed and the Koran. The BookReader requires ... by Davenport, John, 1789-1877. Published 1882.

https://archive.org/details/apologyformohamm00dave


Why do they see him differently?

Please find facts about Holy Prophet (pbuh) @ https://www.alislam.org/holyprophet/

In the end, allow me to say, if middle east problem is solved today, and jihadi organizations are ended, there will be no more criticism against Holy Prophet (pbuh) and Islam.

 

[icehorse]

Wait what?

Dawud said:

The period of the Crusades, when the fictional Mahound was established, was also a time of the great strain and denial in Europe. This is graphically expressed in the phobia about Islam.
(By Karen Armstrong in her book, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, page 27).

The Crusades came hundreds of years after Muhammad died. How do the Crusades fit into this thread?

Also, the Crusades are typically misunderstood. They were a tiny, tiny counter-offensive that occurred after hundreds of years of violent, widespread Islamic conquest.

 

[Augustus]

I'll start with a couple of quotes from Ibn Ishaq, Biographer of Muhammad:
He had people put to death for mocking him ('Asma' bint Marwan, Abu Afak, Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf, Khalid ibn Sufyan, the list goes on).

He had more than four wives at one time (his revelations only allowed 4 wives max. he had up to 11)

He had sex with a nine year old.

He smashed all the Pagans' idols.

In terms of the historical Muhammed, rather than the theological Muhammed, it is very difficult to know much about his actual life.

He is generally considered to be born in the 'year of the elephant' (the elephant story itself lacks historicity), however according to various sources he was born 15 years before that, or 3 or 10 or 15 or 20 or 23 or 30 or 40 or 50 or 70 years later (Source). If something as straightforward as this produces such a range of opinions, it seems very strange that much of the rest of his life is described in minute detail.

The sirah has him existing in an overwhelmingly pagan environment, whereas the audience for the Quran is clearly scripturally literate else much of it wouldn't make sense (There are actually numerous mistakes made in exegesis as some of the medieval exegetes were not aware of the intertextuality with Christian/Jewish teachings).

Even something like Aisha's age at marriage is uncertain. She was a divisive figure from a sectarian perspective, with questions raised by her detractors about her chastity. Having her marry at the age of 6 could simply be an attempt to preclude any possibility that she wasn't a virgin when she was married (especially given her previous betrothal). Or the sirah might be accurate, it's ultimately unknowable though.

It is a work of theology written 100+ years after the fact in a totally different environment, rather than a work of history recording events with regard to their historicity.

I know for the purpose of your discussion it's not really important, what matters is what people believe he did. It's worth pointing out though. If more people realised many things likely didn't happen, it would be easier to negate certain lines of extremist argument that relies on brutal events from the tradition.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Wait what?

Dawud said:

The Crusades came hundreds of years after Muhammad died. How do the Crusades fit into this thread?

Also, the Crusades are typically misunderstood. They were a tiny, tiny counter-offensive that occurred after hundreds of years of violent, widespread Islamic conquest.

Mahound no Mohammed

 

[Augustus]

The Crusades came hundreds of years after Muhammad died. How do the Crusades fir into this thread?

It relates to the Muhammed that exists in the Western imagination, this was shaped by propaganda from the time of the Crusades onwards and arguably still holds some sway today. It is a bit out of context here though as the points raised in this thread are indeed from the Islamic tradition.

It is also worth noting though that many muslims see his military actions as purely defensive. People can argue that they weren't, but this is a matter of perception rather than historical truth. What matters is what people believe not what actually happened.

So looking at his life from a critical perspective will create a completely different person than the one most Muslims honour and respect. What non-Muslims see from his life tends to be completely different from what Muslims see.

As the sirah is a theological construct anyway, believing that people should interpret it in the "one true way" like academic history, is like saying there is only "one true way" to understand any religious scripture.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Okay. Yeah, that's immoral now. To us. The problem is that Muslim societies in this day and age continue to view it as acceptable & still do it because 'it's Islamic' - because Muhammed did it. Pakistan recently blocked a law forbidding girls to be married while under the age of 18 because such a law was viewed as un-Islamic.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...ics-block-un-Islamic-child-marriage-bill.html

This problem stems from Muslims viewing Muhammed as a man whose example should be followed for all time.

Like many christian /jewish leaders , Islamic leaders do not understand thier own religion.
Allah the Evolver/Developer is applicable to the Quran itself. Al-Bari
All Quran ever needed was maybe 5-6 empty pages at the back , not written .

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

I represent the inclusive culmination of Paramahansa Yogananda's divine commission to make manifest to the world the essence of original Christianity as taught by Jesus Christ

 

[icehorse]

It relates to the Muhammed that exists in the Western imagination, this was shaped by propaganda from the time of the Crusades onwards and arguably still holds some sway today. It is a bit out of context here though as the points raised in this thread are indeed from the Islamic tradition.

Agreed that it's a bit out of context, but this is recurring and damaging bit of misinformation...

To be clear: The Crusades were a tiny, tiny counter measure, in response to 400 years of Islamic conquest.

(There are certainly many things in the history of Christianity that Christians should be ashamed of, but not the Crusades.)

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Agreed that it's a bit out of context, but this is recurring and damaging bit of misinformation...

To be clear: The Crusades were a tiny, tiny counter measure, in response to 400 years of Islamic conquest.

(There are certainly many things in the history of Christianity that Christians should be ashamed of, but not the Crusades.)

Puts hand up
But Christianity did loose its way absolutely for long time , was spread with sword without mercy , the crusades was like going to the football game to cause violence , european history is shameful , Inquisitions etc
However by some unknown christianity is alive today and all the past was for greater good as christian ruled parts of world are the most advanced in all forms including philosophy

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Agreed that it's a bit out of context, but this is recurring and damaging bit of misinformation...

To be clear: The Crusades were a tiny, tiny counter measure, in response to 400 years of Islamic conquest.

> (There are certainly many things in the history of Christianity that Christians should be ashamed of, but not the Crusades.) <

I did not expect to see something like that from you, icehorse.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

When we compare what has happened over the last 2000 years, it seems to me like Islam is competing with the Christian idea of jesus in the Bible...

The Christians want a perfect example of morality, so the Muslims create the same ideology; doesn't matter if there are tons of discrepancies in that line of thought, they've made it fit.

Yet considering previous religions, it is quite clear a trend of mankind to make perfect idols out of people.

Er, except that Christians (most of us, anyway) openly proclaim Jesus Christ to be God Himself. So we don't definitely don't view the Saints and other heroes as equals to Christ. I don't know what the Islamic reasoning is for holding Muhammad in such elevated regard.

 

[icehorse]

I did not expect to see something like that from you, icehorse.

Say more!

 

[icehorse]

Puts hand up
But Christianity did loose its way absolutely for long time , was spread with sword without mercy , the crusades was like going to the football game to cause violence , european history is shameful , Inquisitions etc
However by some unknown christianity is alive today and all the past was for greater good as christian ruled parts of world are the most advanced in all forms including philosophy

I'd like to hear more about your understanding of the Crusades? And please, don't conflate other aspects of Christianity's past with the Crusades. I don't believe they should be conflated.