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Was Muhammad The Greatest Moral Example?

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Muslims believe that their prophet is the greatest example of a man ever to walk this earth (this despite some also saying that all prophets are equal, but we'll put that aside for a while).

Muslims, I challenge you to prove to me that Muhammad was a better example of a human being than anyone before or after him. I am of the opinion that he was an immoral religious fanatic who practiced senseless violence.

I'll start with a couple of quotes from Ibn Ishaq, Biographer of Muhammad:

Ishaq:327 "Allah made booty lawful and good. He used it to incite the Muslims to unity of purpose. So enjoy what you have captured."

Ishaq:288 "The Quraysh said,'Muhammad and his Companions have violated the sacred month, shed blood, seized property, and taken men captive.

At-Tabari:

Tabari VIII:116/Ishaq:511 "So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some of its people captive, including Safiyah, and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself." Tabari VIII:121/Ishaq:515 "Safiyah was brought to him, and another woman with her. Bilal led them past some of the Jews we had slain including the woman's dead husband. When she saw them, the woman with Safiyah cried out, slapped her face, and poured dust on her head. When Allah's Prophet saw her, he said, "Take this she-devil away from me!"

He had people put to death for mocking him ('Asma' bint Marwan, Abu Afak, Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf, Khalid ibn Sufyan, the list goes on).

He had more than four wives at one time (his revelations only allowed 4 wives max. he had up to 11)

He had sex with a nine year old.

He smashed all the Pagans' idols.

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).
 
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matthew_/!/

Member
Muslims believe that their prophet is the greatest example of a man ever to walk this earth (this despite some also saying that all prophets are equal, but we'll put that aside for a while).

Muslims, I challenge you to prove to me that Muhammad was a better example of a human being than anyone before or after him. I am of the opinion that he was an immoral religious fanatic who practiced senseless violence.

I'll start with a couple of quotes from Ibn Ishaq, Biographer of Muhammad:

Ishaq:327 "Allah made booty lawful and good. He used it to incite the Muslims to unity of purpose. So enjoy what you have captured."

Ishaq:288 "The Quraysh said,'Muhammad and his Companions have violated the sacred month, shed blood, seized property, and taken men captive.

At-Tabari:

Tabari VIII:116/Ishaq:511 "So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some of its people captive, including Safiyah, and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself." Tabari VIII:121/Ishaq:515 "Safiyah was brought to him, and another woman with her. Bilal led them past some of the Jews we had slain including the woman's dead husband. When she saw them, the woman with Safiyah cried out, slapped her face, and poured dust on her head. When Allah's Prophet saw her, he said, "Take this she-devil away from me!"

He had people put to death for mocking him ('Asma' bint Marwan, Abu Afak, Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf, Khalid ibn Sufyan, the list goes on).

He had more than four wives at one time (his revelations only allowed 4 wives max. he had up to 11)

He had sex with a nine year old.

He smashed all the Pagans' idols.

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).
I'm just gonna throw this in and bail out of the thread real quick. In older times sex with younger ages was not frowned upon as it is now, ethics change over time.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm just gonna throw this in and bail out of the thread real quick. In older times sex with younger ages was not frowned upon as it is now, ethics change over time.
Yes but Muhammad was supposed to have been directed by God, so that's not an excuse. God should have known better and told Muhammad not to. Also if Muslims consider him the greatest example of all time, then the ethics can't change.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I meant to say multiple you type very fast. Not saying it's bad but one is enough
I actually don't have any problems with polygany either, but that's a different topic. Let's allow some Muslims and others to chip in lol.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I disagree. Sex is healthy and imo a blessing, not something bad.

I'm basically with you here, but I think for some people's spiritual development celibacy is more appropriate, this varies between people. If one does have it, then I think long-term stable relationships in which the partners are committed and mutually respecting is the place for it.

This is perpetuating a tangent right at the outset though!

So as for the OP, as a non-Muslim who has no problem with Islam per se, I'll say I don't particularly see Muhammad as the greatest moral example (fairly obviously - it's a rare non-Muslim who does), but by no means the worst either. The fuzziness of our understandings of this period, the morality involved, the veracity and reliability of the reports and the greatly varying understandings and acceptance of these reports by contemporary Muslims and Muslims since then makes the whole thing rather complex, and allows for a wide degree of variation in modern-day people professing to follow the man.
 

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
I disagree. Sex is healthy and imo a blessing, not something bad.
That bird who was nine had already been about , yeah sick a know but that's how it was back then .
King John had a wife who was 12.
Yeah very wrong don't enjoy sound of tearing flesh myself but in those days , puberty, 5 a side was old enough .

To be able to truly honestly judge Mohammed is impossible , can't even imagine what life could of been like back then . Was a barbaric world , we do not know how lucky we rilly are.
Maybe Mohammed was best of a very bad bunch . His lands had been ravaged , is history from earlier than 12,000bc craddle of civilization, Babylon , Adam an Eve came back 5000 years later with armies and trashed everything lol. Babylon was destroyed to rubble .Isiah did it lol just for fun.
In the Bible, Isaiah 13:1 says, “The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.” At the time of Isaiah’s prediction, Babylon was one of the largest and most important cities in the world. This is what God told Isaiah would happen to Babylon:

Isaiah claimed that God told him that Babylon would be completely destroyed.
Sure he told him , what if is no god then what truth ?
 

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
As a moral example, I suspect Mohammad was neither the best nor the worst moral example of his own times, and I think he doesn't hold up very well as a moral example today, in our times.
Back then most would of thrown the little girl into the arms of the rabble , she was alone , he took her as a wife , quite noble considering
 

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
As a moral example, I suspect Mohammad was neither the best nor the worst moral example of his own times, and I think he doesn't hold up very well as a moral example today, in our times.
Muslims do not understand they think reform means changing the words , however is nothing to stop the Quran evolving , ie getting thicker , is a concept of Allah the Evolver/Developer ie Al Bari but they don't comprehend , children just misunderstood lash out like children .
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Many religions claim to be some combination of: "perfect, final, unalterable, and timeless". This class of claims has proven to cause endless, unnecessary suffering. Over time - even with ups and downs - society has improved. The evidence of this is clear (e.g. health, longevity, immigration patterns, happiness indexes..). These "timeless" religions tend to retard progress.

So 1400 years ago, it would seem that Muhammad was a good politician and a good general in the situation of helping a weak new tribe survive in a hostile society. The idea that we should all take on a competing, tribal worldview today is absurd.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
When we compare what has happened over the last 2000 years, it seems to me like Islam is competing with the Christian idea of jesus in the Bible...

The Christians want a perfect example of morality, so the Muslims create the same ideology; doesn't matter if there are tons of discrepancies in that line of thought, they've made it fit.

Yet considering previous religions, it is quite clear a trend of mankind to make perfect idols out of people. :oops:
 

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
I wasn't trying to say that how the marriage was handled by either Muhammed or Abu Bakr was/is immoral - just that your narrative was incorrect. That's all.

Abu Bakr you can testify his character ?
A good point became of it , I don't mind being little out on narrative on this occasion or any other if progress is made.
 
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