Was Jesus really Crucified?

[Lyndon]

Outhouse, you don't know what you are talking about, you're assuming everything Moshiur is saying must be wrong just because he's Muslim, not Christian, there's a word for that, its called bigotry.

Every orthodox early new Testament scholar you talk to (not muslim) will tell you that there were many early Christian branches of followers of Jesus, roughly 50% of them didn't believe Jesus was Divine, a sizable percent of that group didn't believe Jesus the rabbi was the one that died on the cross, they were also many who didn't accept Paul as inspired.

Around 300-500 AD the roman emperor who had been persecuting all the Christians decided to "convert" to a form of Christianity more similar to his preferences, and that, not surprisingly was the sects that followed Pauline Christianity, not the other gnostic Christians, who he declared heretics, he then proceeded to execute, ethnically cleanse, and burn all the scriptures of the other Christians that did not accept Paul and the divinity of Jesus. Not much later, I think its the council of Nicea around 523AD?? a group of religious scholars was asked to decide which scriptures were "inspired" and which ones were not. In other words they only picked and allowed to be in the New Testament, books that agreed with each other and supported their rather narrow definition of what form of Christianity they wanted to be practised, This was also the doings of and beginning of the Roman Catholic church, all this around 500AD a simple google search of "the history of the early Christian churches" should find you plenty of info. cheers

 

[Moshiur]

Jesus made the claim that he could tear down the temple and rebuild it in 3 days. Elsewhere he said the body is a temple.

I know that story what Jesus said about building the temple. I read your whole bible. But thats not a point with crucifixion. Jesus himself prophecied that His miraculous sign will be same as like jonah. Did he fulfilled that? This is the burning question of the day. If he was died on cross then his that prophecy was false. False means false man. Now as a muslim I believe that Jesus was true, he was messiah but If I were a jew then I would never believe him because he promised that he will perform a miraculous sign like jonah. Now if anyone try to prove that Jesus died on cross that means they are trying to prove that Jesus was false.

It is highly likely the religious leaders didn't believe Him, didn't like what he was saying and wanted to prove it all wrong, therefore he was crucified in the usual manner of the time.

Jews didnt believe in many prophets. They even killed many prophets.

"..O Jerusalem! jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you.." [Matthew 23:37]

So they didnt accept prophet Jesus. Thats why God cursed Jews. God promised he will give a "Great Nation" to Ishmael from his descendants in Genesis, 17:20

Ishmael is the Father of Arab and his Nation was Arab.

Jesus prophesied "Kingdom of God" will take from jews and it will given to another Nation in Matthew 21:43

Now muslims got the kingdom of God.

Also, when Jesus was actually crucified? 4 gospels have different time. Few says 3 pm, few says 6 pm. Anyway, its a clear error and doubtful the lie of crucifixion.

Adam and Eve were rebellious and their mind and consciousness set the pattern of how people behave today. Sin means to miss the mark, or to not measure up and now the whole of creation displays death, predatory behavior, rusting, oxidizing and decay, entropy but the whole creation is in expectation of the revealing of the sons of God.

Are you trying to tell me that Adam and eve did sin so we are respectful for that? Its your church's false doctrine. Even bible against of that.

"The soul who sins in the the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the farther, nor will the father share the guilt of son.The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him[Ezekiel 18:20]

I am not responsible for my father(i.e Adam's) sin. Try to seek the truth man. Even this sacrifice of your statement cannot make any common sense.

 

[AllanV]

Are you telling me that you are not a sinner, you are perfect and Holy?

Jesus is alive right now. But He is pure and His nature is very gentle. He is actually really immortal. In an experience of God at 26 years I was shown the difference between His mind and my mind and what could be attained to. For three years thoughts on whole concepts would enter about things that had never been learned.
God is close at hand and not far off. God wears light as a garment. God makes everything we see appear as it does at every instant.
The pattern of all creation was spoken into existence and this Spirit was incarnate in Jesus.

A man must be invited and then purify himself in the mind and heart to stand in His presence.

 

[Lyndon]

MOSHIUR, Sorry but that's just going way to far, God promised the Jews a kingdom at the end of days over and over and over in the Old Testament, I believe God promises a huge kingdom to Muslim's too, but not the whole world, for christ's sake, give me a break......

 

[Moshiur]

Are you telling me that you are not a sinner, you are perfect and Holy?

We are no one is perfect. We do sin and if we fear and repent then God forgive us because He is most merciful this is what we believe.

Say: "If ye do Love Allah, follow me: Allah will Love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." [Quran, 3:31]

I dont believe in that doctrine that an innocent man died for my sin and I have to believe this for my salvation. This is even not logical.

***Salvation of Islam:

"By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),

Verily Man is in loss,

Except such as Have Fath, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy." [Quran, 103:1-3]

***You must need this 5 deeds:

1. Faith.

2. Righteous deeds.

3. teaching of Truth.

4. Patience.

5. Constancy.

Also:

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in Allah the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well -acquainted." [Quran, 49:13]

*** Sex, name, colour, caste, wealth has got no criteria in Islam - The only criteria in the sight of God is "righteousness".

"For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward." [Quran, 33:35]

"If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them." [Quran, 4:124]

"Every soul shall have a taste of death: and WE test you by evil and by good by way of trial: to US must ye return." [Quran, 21:35]

"He who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in Deed: and He is the exalted in Might, Oft-forgiving." [Quran, 67:2]

"As those who believe and work righteousness, verily We shall not suffer to perish the regard of any who do a single righteous Deed." [Quran, 18:30]

"Lo! Allah has brought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden(i.e Paradise) will be their: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be salin. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant betten than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the superme triumph." [Quran, 9:111]

"O ye who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against Yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether It be against rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts of your hearts, lest ye Swerve, and if ye Distort justice or decline to do all justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do." [Quran, 4:135]

This is logical to me. Also Jesus never said that "believe this that I will die for your sins on cross and this is your salvation"

In matthew 19:16-25 when a rich man went on Jesus for knowing salvating then Jesus told him to follow the scripture and commandments of God. He didnt say anything what church teaching today.

A man must be invited and then purify himself in the mind and heart to stand in His presence.

I agree with you on this point.

 

[Moshiur]

MOSHIUR, Sorry but that's just going way to far, God promised the Jews a kingdom at the end of days over and over and over in the Old Testament.

Firstly, I agree with you that Jews were God chosen people. God also says that in Quran,

The Jews were God chosen people..

"I did aforetime grant to the Children Of Israel the Book the Power of command, and Prophethood, I gave them, for Sustenance, things good and pure; AND I FAVOURED THEM ABOVE THE NATION" [Quran, 45:16]

God sent many prophet for jews but Jews killed them and changed the scripture. Jeremiah 8:8 says jews changed the scripture.

Jews killed prophet Jeremiah, John, zecherah and even tried to kill Jesus. Thats why Jesus told this,

"..O Jerusalem! jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you.." [Matthew 23:37]

Secondly, God promised that He will give a great nation for Ishmael descendents.

"AND AS FOR ISHMAEL, I HAVE HEARD YOU: I WILL SURELY BLESS HIM; I WILL MAKE HIM FRUITFUL AND WILL GREATLY INCREASE HIS NUMBERS. HE WILL BE THE FATHER OF TWELVE RULERS, AND I WILL MAKE HIM into A GREAT NATION" [Genesis, 17:20]

We first see a clear promise from God Almighty that He will make "GREAT NATION" from Ishamel descendents.

Before Prophet Muhammad Arab never was a Great Nation.

Thirdly, Jesus prophesied "Kingdom of God" will take from jews and it will given to another Nation in Matthew 21:43

"Therefore Say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" [Matthew 21:43]

I know bible says that God will save jews but Bible also says, God can change His mind and change His promise if anyone break the commandment of God

See few proof:

LORD chang his mind according to Bible:

"So the LORD changed his mind and did not bring on his people the disaster he threatened" [Exodus 32:14]

So the LORD RELENTED. "This will not happen," the LORD said. [Amos, 7:3]

"...My heart is changed within me.." [Hosea, 11:8]

"THEN THE LORD RELENTED and did not bring on his people to disaster he had threatened" [Exodus, 32:14]

Hezekiah was declared to die by God Almighty, And then GOD changed His Mind and healed him! Read 2 kings, 20:1-6

Balaam was first commanded not to go, and God changed His mind and commanded him to go! Read Numbers 22:9-20

"But God said to Balam, "DO NOT GO WITH THEM. You must not put to curse on those people, because they are blessed" [Numbers 22:12]

read >>>>"But God said to Balam, "DO NOT GO WITH THEM.." [Numbers 22:12]

now lets see few verse later....

"That Night God came to Balam and said, "Since these men have come to summon you, GO WITH THEM, but do only what i tell you" [Numbers 22:20]

Read>>>> "That Night God came to Balam and said.. GO WITH THEM.." [Numbers 22:20]

"The angel of Lord said to Balaam, "GO WITH THEM, but speak only what I tell you." so Balaam went with the princess of Balk" [Numbers 22:35]

As we see in Numbers 22:12 God commanded Balam not to go with the mea, And in Numbers 22:20 and 22:35 God changed His Mind, And Commanded Balam to go with them!!

I believe God promises a huge kingdom to Muslim's too, but not the whole world, for christ's sake, give me a break......

Read my post fully bro. Only Islam will be accepted on God. God also promise that Islam will proclaim over all faith even though pagans detest this religion.

"It is He(GOD) who hath sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the Religion of Truth, TO PROCLAIM IT OVER ALL RELIGION, even though the Pagans may detest this religion." [Quran, 8:33]

This is a clear promise of God, Islam will proclaim over all religion.

 

[AllanV]

The scripture says to be perfect and to be Holy with out these you will not see (or be with) the Lord.

There are some difference between what you write and my understanding.

There is a scripture that reads " he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent me has eternal life without judgement"

This verse says much.
1/ We need to hear what is being said and this is not superficial but must penetrate deeply with some power.
2/ We must believe in God not our own self which is a barrier to knowing God as He requests.
3/ immortality is entirely possible.
4/ there will be judgement.
5/ A person who is able to overcome and conquer all will have a free ticket.
6/ Jesus, because He went on the cross and lives can now send some (plenty of) help.
7/ Jesus was sent by the Eternal God.

 

[jeager106]

Moshiur: Thank you for the honest information about Islam and making war
on other of the same faith. I appreciate that.
Christianity has had wars among believers of the same faith.
History is rotten with the abuses of man against his fellows.
When Martin Luther broke from the Catholic faith many were murdered in the name of "god".
When the King of England broke from the Roman Catholic Church many Catholic clergy were murdered in the name of the new Chruch of England.
However it seems that Christians finally quit killing one another except for the war in Ireland where Protestants & Catholics still harbor hatred for one another.

 

[outhouse]

You can give me thousands of proof from wikipidia or any other website from christians or atheists web sites. Thats cannot make any point on me. Its totally unnecessary and useless to me. We are talking from scripture.

Then you have no reason to debate, because no amount of credible evidence will change your opinion.

That means you are proselytizing faith which is against the rules here.

Scripture is not credible history, it is theology. YET YOU are crossing the lines of theology and making historical claims. You need non biblical and non Koran sources if you want to discuss historical events like the crucifixion.

 

[AllanV]

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[outhouse]

Outhouse, you don't know what you are talking about,

You have no qualification to state that with any credibility. I study at a very high level, the formation of Christianity and all aspects of the historical Jesus.


What scholarship have you studied?

Under what professor have you learned your knowledge?

How many authors do you debated with on these topics?

you're assuming everything Moshiur is saying must be wrong just because he's Muslim

That is false. Where do you come up with this? I have never stated such.

Every orthodox early new Testament scholar you talk to (not muslim) will tell you that there were many early Christian branches of followers of Jesus, roughly 50% of them didn't believe Jesus was Divine

There is no such thing as an orthodox NT scholar. One is either a scholar or one is not a scholar.


You may have some serious comprehensive skills here, because I have never stated there was not many branches of early followers that did not have diverse views on how divine Jesus was.



Provide credible sources that 50% of early followers did not think Jesus was divine. Because that is a number I believe you pulled out of a hat.