Was Jesus really Crucified?

[Moshiur]

I only know what I've been taught; that Jesus was the Son of God, not God.

Its nice to know that you worship the true God. And I agree with you that Jesus was the son of God according to Bible teaching. In Bible son of God means servant of God. We muslims also believe that respect Jesus.

Bible have many Son of God name but that's not mean literally God have any Son!

"..Adam, which was the son of God.." [luke 3:38]

"...Israel (Jacob) is My son, even MY firstborn." [Exodus 4:22]

"For I (GOD) am a Father to Israel, and Epharim is My firstborn." [Jeremiah 31:9]

"He (Solomon) shall build a house for My Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I WILL BE HIS (SOLOMON) FATHER AND HE SHALL BE MY SON." [1 chronicles 22:10]

"..The lORD hath said unto me (David): 'Thou art MY Son: this day have I begotten thee." [Psalm 2:7]

***So David is also God's begotten son. The meaning of "Son of God" is not literal but metaphorical. It can be anyone who is beloved by God.

Jesus also said that God is not only his Father but also ur Father (Matthew 5:45, 48)

"That you may be sons of ur Father in heaven..." [Matthew 5:45]

"Be Perfect, therefore, as ur heavenly Father is perfect" [Matthew 5:48]

"..Go instead to my brothers and tell them "I am not returning my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." [John 20:17]

Paul also said:

"For as many as are led by the spirit of God, they are the sons of God." [Romans 18:14]

You will see in many passages of the Bible "Son of God " which signifies Love and affection, nearness to God, not applied to Jesus Alone.
"Son of God" also is a title.

Elohim also is a title:

We everybody know Elohim is one of Almighty God name in hebrew but this is also a human title. Example:

"I have said, Ye(The Jews) are Elohim.." [Psalm 82:6]

So we clearly see "Son of God" and "Elohim" is no more than a title. In Hebrew every righteous people call as "Son of God" and "Elohim" and there this is very common.

***In John 8:44 Jesus called few evil Jews as "Son of Satan" but this not mean literally satan have any Son!

As same as God also literally have no Son. In hebrew Son of God literally means "Servant of God".

See a proof:

"Unto u first God, having raised up HIS SON JESUS, sent him to bless you.." [Acts 3:26 from kjv]

"To u first, God having raised up HIS SERVANT JESUS, sent him to bless you.." [Acts 3:26 from Nkjv]

kings James version >>HIS SON JESUS (Acts 3:26)

New kings james version >>HIS SERVANT JESUS (Acts 3:26)

Because [Son of God = Servant of God]

Jesus directly claimed himself as Prophet:

"Now Jesus himself had pointed out that a Prophet has no honour in his own country." [John 4:44]

Indeed! this is real Jesus. God says in Quran:

"He(Jesus) was no more than a servant whom We blessed, and We sent him as an example for the Children of Israel" [Quran, 43:59]

"And Jesus shall be a Sign for the coming of the Hour of Judgement; therefore have no doubt about the Hour, but follow ye Me; this is Straight way." [Quran, 43:61]

"Let not the satan repel you; he is your most ardent enemy" [Quran, 43:62]

When Jesus went with the proofs, Jesus said, "I bring to you wisdom, and to clarify some of the matter in which you dispute. You shall reverence GOD and obey me" [Quran, 43:63]

That Jesus was to die for forgiveness of all mans sins if man will only believe in Him.

Brother here you are wrong. How you believe this that one innocent person can die for others? Even bible is against of this false doctrine of church.

"The soul who sins in the the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the farther, nor will the father share the guilt of son.The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him[Ezekiel 18:20]

Here God clearly says we are not guilty for the sins of other, nor anyone can share our sins. Bible very clearly says that. Then why you are believing the false doctrine of church brother?

Given the Jewish leaders were really wanting rid of Jesus it's unlikely another man would have been crucified in His place starting a 2000 year old lie.
The Pharasees & Sadducees that hated Jesus would never have allowed Jesus to escape unscathed. That makes no sense, those Jews of authority would have made certain that the right Rabbi was put to death.

If you read my this thread clearly then you cannot refute what I have said. I have 4 points. You cannot refute that. Even Jesus himself prophecied that he will not die. I hope you will seek the truth.

 

[Moshiur]

No you did not prove anything other then bias, and a knowledge of history and pseudo history.

You cannot refute that I have said. Jesus himself prophesied that he will not die. Look at my 4 points. You accept or not thats your own personal but truth is clear.

Real historians consider the crucifixion as close to fact as there can be. Nothing you have provided goes against this.

This seems you dont know the history clearly. Early christians had 7 sects, there even 4 sects belived that Jesus was not crucified. Also "Gospel of Barnabas" says that Judas was crucified. Barnabas was a disciple of Jesus and he was eye witness.

Bible also have many Historian error. So even if bible say Jesus was crucified that cannot be true. Let me give an example.

****HISTORICAL ERRORS OF BIBLE:

1. The story of Noah and the flood conflict with scientific evidence and archaeological data:

The Biblical description of the flood in Genesis chapter 6, 7 and 8 indicates that the deluge was universal and it destroyed every living thing on earth, except those present with Noah in the ark. The description suggests that the event took place 1656 years after the creation of Adam (pbuh) or 292 years before the birth of Abraham, at a time when Noah was 600 years old. Thus the flood may have occurred in the 21st or 22nd Century B.C.

***This story of the flood, as given in the Bible, contradicts scientific evidence from archaelogical sources which indicate that the eleventh dynasty in Egypt and the third dynasty in Babylonia were in existence without any break in civilisation and in a manner totally unaffected by any major calamity which may have occurred in the 21st century B.C. This contradicts the Biblical story that the whole world had been immersed in the flood water. - Historical error!

So what you say now brother?

 

[Desert Snake]

Ok, so your invisible sky deity told some people that jesus isn't legit. Ok.

 

[Moshiur]

Many can make that claim about other religions. But how many people will listen to this kind of biased post?

This is not my claiming. I just proved that by Christian's own bible. You cannot refute those things. I challenge that. If anyone dont listen or accept the truth thats really his/her own personal matter but truth is always clear what I have said. All I have posted with reference. Even you in invite a prist or pastor to refute this. I challenge that he can not.

 

[Lyndon]

I've read the apocryphal gospel of Barnabas, the source?? of the holy Koran's story of a non cruxifiction, to be perfectly honest with you since we don't have video tape of it I don't see how its possible to say absolutely for sure which story is the most accurate; the Biblical gospels where Jesus dies, or the Barnabas/Koranic gospel where Jesus lives, and someone else dies in his place.

The fact of the matter is it doesn't make one G damn bit of difference to me whether Jesus died on the cross, or escaped. What matters to me is what he taught, pure love and compassion for everyone, saint and sinner. Peaceful non violent resistance to Pharisees, Sadducees, and Romans in Israel of all places!! Jesus is the single greatest religious leader I know, and I've studied many of them. If the world followed Jesus as opposed to his followers, we would have peace on earth, not the anarchy that we call democracy.

 

[outhouse]

Early christians had 7 sects

Provide sources for this please

4 sects belived that Jesus was not crucified

Provide sources for this please

. So even if bible say Jesus was crucified that cannot be true

This is false. Its also known as a logical fallacy. Just because the NT is not perfect, does not mean it is devoid of credible historical data.

Bible also have many Historian error

Sure it does, but so does other religious books, like the Koran. Many people will claim it is plagiarized from the NT, do you think that is correct ?

1. The story of Noah and the flood conflict with scientific evidence and archaeological data:

Doesn't this also apply to the Koran?

 

[outhouse]

This is not my claiming.

Did someone else write the OP?

I just proved that by Christian's own bible.

No, you have not proven anything yet. You have offered opinion which looks to be very biased and uninformed of what historians claim.

All I have posted with reference

You need to supply more links to CREDIBLE sources.

 

[Moshiur]

Ok, so your invisible sky deity told some people that jesus isn't legit. Ok.

Brother, I welcome you in debate to seek the truth. Did you not see that I have said all by reference and clear proof? You cannot refute my single things. You you fail then pls invite your pastor. I open challenge that he also cannot refute that. I did debate with many pastor/prist, they were also failed that. The truth is always truth and God help them who preach truth.

You are saying that my invisible sky deity but you should know that people cannot see God. Only the nearest prophet of God can see Him. Example: Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad(pbuh) has seen God.

"No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; Only he has seen the Father." [John 6:46]

"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice or seen his shape." [John 5:37]

"You can not see my face, for no one may see me and live." [Exodus 33:20]

Hope its clear now.

 

[outhouse]

I don't see how its possible to say absolutely for sure which story is the most accurate; the Biblical gospels where Jesus dies, or the Barnabas/Koranic gospel where Jesus lives, and someone else dies in his place.

Historians look at the source of the claim. Do we use the Koran which is writing some 600 year after the fact? Or do we use a source 15-20 years after the fact, like Paul?

Barnabas is much older then the sources used to determine history.

 

[outhouse]

Did you not see that I have said all by reference and clear proof?

You have only made proof in your mind. You have no made proof for anyone else.


What sources are you using?

 

[outhouse]

Let me show you how to use credible sources.

Historical Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Two widely accepted historical facts

Nonetheless, despite divergent scholarly opinions on the construction of portraits of the historical Jesus, almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts


So all modern historians claim the crucifixion to be a historical fact.

 

[oldbadger]

Thanks brother. I am new in this forum. How can I refine my posting technique? I will be grateful on you if you tell me that..

I only have one small suggestion: Small 'bite-size' pieces of info....... only!

I actually dont know how many Jesus were there! But your claiming can be true. God knows the best. I already proved that real Jesus were never crucified. This crucifixion is just a lie.

Well that is all there..... in the bible, in the Gospel stories. How could you miss that?

Quoting from the OT, after asking a question, when in fact you wanted to shout a statement at Christians, on their Christmas day............ just might invite return comments such as 'So where did Muhammad get prophesied?'. Worse than that could get mentioned just at this time, yes?

So why not build your own faith, rather than throwing bricks at others? What's the point?

 

[Moshiur]

I've read the apocryphal gospel of Barnabas, the source?? of the holy Koran's story of a non cruxifiction, to be perfectly honest with you since we don't have video tape of it I don't see how its possible to say absolutely for sure which story is the most accurate; the Biblical gospels where Jesus dies, or the Barnabas/Koranic gospel where Jesus lives, and someone else dies in his place.

Well, i have the book gospel of barnabas but I dont know how I can provide you. You can search in google, I hope there have PDF file to read this. I agree with your statement.

Jesus is the single greatest religious leader I know, and I've studied many of them. If the world followed Jesus as opposed to his followers, we would have peace on earth, not the anarchy that we call democracy.

Firstly, I highly agree with you that Jesus was the greatest leader when he came in earth. When Moses came in earth that time he was also the greatest leader. Here nothing to argue. But problem is Jesus himself said that he came only for his people, not for you or me.

He answered "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." [Matthew 15:24]

Also see Matthew 10:5-6

Jesus said to his 12 Apostles:

"Do not go among the gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans" [Matthew 10:5]

Meaning DO NOT GO any town of gentiles.

"Go rather to the lost sheep of israel." [Matthew 10:6]

Go ONLY to The nation of ISRAEL.

Secondly, we muslims follow Jesus than Christians themselves. If you see, Jesus prayed to his God like muslims, he fasted, he Circumcised, he even prophecied about Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) [I can open debate regarding this]..

Bible says do not eat pork, we muslims not eat but christians eat, bible says do not drink wine, we muslims do not drink but christians drink.

So if christianity is a religion to follow Jesus then though we are muslim but we follow Jesus more than Christian themselves.

Actually Jesus was muslim. In Islam Adam to Muhammad(pbuh) all prophets were muslim.

Meaning of Muslim "one who submit his will to God".

In Islam all Prophets and all their true followers were Muslim. So Jesus also was a muslim. You also will get this proof in Bible.

"For i have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of Him who sent me." [John 6:38]

 

[Moshiur]

Provide sources for this please

I have read a book "the origin of Christianity" that book was written by christian scholars. I own have that book in my real life. But I dont know how can I provide you that on online. Also, now we see many christians sects. Many of them say different. Jehova witness say Jesus was crucified on stake, others say he was crucified on tree, others say different. So early times there were several sects too who believed that Jesus was not crucified. I hope you understand.

This is false. Its also known as a logical fallacy. Just because the NT is not perfect, does not mean it is devoid of credible historical data.

I dont believe all of New testament. Gospels were written by mysterious people and few disciples of Jesus. New Testament original manuscripts were not Greek, it was Aramaic. Where those original manuscripts? Simply, Greek romans changed it into their language. Even Bible scholars deny that their whole new testament is Jesus's own words.

***Gospel of John:

"Many Scholar of the part two centuries have denied that John wrote this book, partly because of their belief that the author fabricated many details such the miracles and discourses of Jesus." [The Holman illustrated Study Bible, ISBN 978-1-58640-275-4, Gospel of John, page 1540]

"Critical Analysis makes it difficult to accept the idea that the gospel as it now stands was written by one person." [The new American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4 page 1136]

"Within the gospel itself there are also some inconsistencies." [The new American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1136]

"Other difficulties for any theory of eyewitness authorship of the gospel in its present form are presented by its highly developed theology and by certain elements of its literary style." [New American Bible, ISBN : 978-0-529-06484-4, page 1136]

"The final editing of the gospel and arrangement in its present from probably dates from between A.D 90 and 100 Tradictionally, Ephesus has been favored as the place of composition, thou many support a location in Syria, perhaps the city of Antioch, while some have suggested other places, Including Alexandria." [New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, page 1136]

so again, no one knows regarding the "Gospel of John"

1.Who wrote it.

2.How many people wrote it.

3.When it was written.

4.Where it was written.

Also, when one reads this gospel, he would immediately notices that it was not written by John himself. Christians say that it was John the Apostle writting about John the Baptist. The evidence in the quotes above CLEARLY PROVES THAT THIS IS A DESPERATE LIES!

I Submit to you that neither John wrote anything in John!

The lie of trinity and Jesus died for your sin both theory were born between the years of 150 to 300. Its is quite possible and highly probable that some church wrote the so-called "Gospel of John" from excerpts that they found. Its highly doubtful and contain no proof what so ever that whole gospel of John were written by jesus original disciples.

The Gospel of John was written about John but not by originally "Saint John" big difference and and big corruption!!

***Gospel of Matthew:

"THE UNKNOWN AUTHOR, WHOM WE SHALL CONTINUE TO CALL MATTHEW FOR THE SAKE OF CONVENJENCE, drew on only up the Gospel according to Mark but upon a large body of material (principally, saying of Jesus) not found in MK that corresponds, sometimes exactly, to material found also in the Gospel according to Luke." [New American standard Bible, ICBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1008]

"As for the place where the Gospel was composed, A PLAUSIBLE SUGGESTION is that it was Antioch, the capital of the Roman province of Syria." [New American standard Bible, ICBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1008]

Sure it does, but so does other religious books, like the Koran. Many people will claim it is plagiarized from the NT, do you think that is correct ?

Sure it does only with bible, not with Quran. Quran doesnt have any single error. See what I have said about NT.

Doesn't this also apply to the Koran?

That doesnt apply with Quran. Quran doesnt say that whole world were under the flood. Also Quran didnt mention any time. Quran says Noah was sent only to his people, not for world. Historians have no complain to agree with this claiming of Quran that the flood was only happened on Noah's own regional people. Historians are agree with Quran, not with bible.

 

[Moshiur]

You have only made proof in your mind. You have no made proof for anyone else.
What sources are you using?

I have proved that on by bible. You cannot refute my 4 points. Jesus own prophecy that he will not die. Read matthew 12:38-40. If you can refute that then pls say I am wrong.

 

[Moshiur]

Let me show you how to use credible sources.

Historical Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Two widely accepted historical facts

Nonetheless, despite divergent scholarly opinions on the construction of portraits of the historical Jesus, almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts


So all modern historians claim the crucifixion to be a historical fact.

All source of wikipedia are not correct. Wikipedia says prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was born in 571 ad 22 april but we know that he was born in 570. So i cannot believe the source of wikipedia regarding religious issue because wikipedia is also written by human. Probably Christians wrote that. You need to give other source.

 

[outhouse]

I dont believe all of New testament.

No credible historian does

CLEARLY PROVES THAT THIS IS A DESPERATE LIES!

This is false. You cannot prove a lie.

I Submit to you that neither John wrote anything in John!

I believe this to, as do most credible historians

Quran doesnt have any single error.

This is not true. By all credible historians it is a plagiarized from the bible.

Historians have no complain to agree with this claiming of Quran that the flood was only happened on Noah's own regional people.

How so? Noah has no historicity as ever existing. Did you know that no credible historian uses the Koran for any aspect of Israelite history or history regarding Jesus?

Genesis flood narrative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many scholars believe that the Noah story and the biblical flood story are derived from the Mesopotamian versions, predominantly because biblical mythology that is today found in Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Mandeanism shares overlapping consistency with far older written Mesopotamian stories of The Great Flood, and that some of the early Hebrews were believed to have lived in Mesopotamia

Islamic mythology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Islam incorporates many Biblical events and heroes into its own mythology

Historians are agree with Quran, not with bible

No that is not true, can you provide a source that backs your statement?

 

[outhouse]

You need to give other source.

No I do not. You need credible sources. The Koran is not a credible source because you believe it is.

 

[outhouse]

All source of wikipedia are not correct.

You are factually in error.

Can you prove wiki is wrong in every aspect?

 

[outhouse]

All source of wikipedia are not correct. Wikipedia says prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was born in 571 ad 22 april

\

You are factually in error.

Muhammad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Born approximately in 570 CE in the Arabian city of Mecca



Are you just making stuff up as you go?