Was Jesus really Crucified?

[Koldo]

Another muslim trying to convince the rest of us that Jesus was not crucified...
It just won't work.

And I am gonna tell you why it won't work:

1) We don't care about what is written on the quran concerning this event.
2) Even if there are contradictions about what happened, all accounts in the bible consider Jesus to have died on the cross ( or perhaps something similar to a cross ) that day.
3) You are as biased as someone could possibly be on this subject.
4) Although your post is long it is also superficial. The evidence you are bringing for your argument is highly circumstantial.

 

[Moshiur]

This is false. You cannot prove a lie.

I have proved that by Christians own bible, not by wikipedia. Now people will judge what is true.

I believe this to, as do most credible historians

Thanks.

How so? Noah has no historicity as ever existing. Did you know that no credible historian uses the Koran for any aspect of Israelite history or history regarding Jesus?

Genesis flood narrative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are providing again wikipedia source! I know you are an atheist. I respect atheists as respect others believe. We are here to seek the truth. But brother this was a debate with christians, not with atheists.

Many scholars believe that the Noah story and the biblical flood story are derived from the Mesopotamian versions, predominantly because biblical mythology that is today found in Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Mandeanism shares overlapping consistency with far older written Mesopotamian stories of The Great Flood, and that some of the early Hebrews were believed to have lived in Mesopotamia

Many of them believe? Many people can say many thing. That doesnt make any sense. Probably Noah story was true, probably not. This depends on faith. You dont believe this because you are an atheist. I know you will not believe that because you have no faith. So arguement with you regarding this issue is useless. But I have respect on you.

No that is not true, can you provide a source that backs your statement?

I am not agree with you wikipedia source. There few source says this, others say that. Its doubtful. We are talking with religious scripture. I have to make another thread to debate with you regarding bible and Quran or other religions scientific error, historians error or other facts. I did it others too before. So I am used to.

 

[Lyndon]

Peace be upon you, Moshiur, While I can accept that the Holy Koran was memorised and written down from the Prophet's(pbuh) words during or soon after his life. So unlike almost all the other religions scriptures, we know for sure the Prophet's(pbuh) words were very very accurately recorded and survive to this day in the exact same language, classical arabic. But not all of the Holy Koran was dictated to Mohammed(pbuh) by the angel, some of it was stories from the Old and New Testament times told to the prophet by Jews and Christians he knew. Mohammed had an incredible "photographic" memory, and memorised the entire holy Koran, but he could not write, I think someone told me his eyesight may have been poor, forgive me if I'm wrong.

Some of the stories from the Bible times in the holy Koran, didn't come from the angel, and weren't Mohammed's (pbuh) own teachings but were told to him by other religious people he knew, those stories were hundreds of years old and may not have been perfect accurate, just like many books in the Bible may not be totally accurate story either. But most of what you say about the early Christian church is true as I was taught much the same thing, but I learned that from Christians, not Muslim.

At least that is what I understand and I might be wrong.

I have read the holy Koran, but only once, I don't practice Islam, I worship GOD in my own way, I don't believe Jesus is a god, but I think maybe he was one of the most god like people I have read about. The reason I post so much on Islam, is I am very worried by the lies and propaganda in the media about Islam and Muslims. Muslims, Jews, Christians, and non believers can, and have lived together in peace before, and must live together on earth in peace in the future. Going to war because you think Allah is bad, and Jehovah is good, is insanity, because they are one and the same God. The best way to stop the spread of hate is to learn the truth, not the lies about Islam.

 

[outhouse]

I have proved

Nothing.

You have proved that you don't know what credible sources are, and you made a mistake about what this credible source stated.

You stated something that factually was not true.

 

[Moshiur]

\

You are factually in error.

Muhammad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you just making stuff up as you go?

You will get different things in different places on google. Thats cannot be a source.

I read Wikipedia says 570/571 which means they are not sure.

Historicity of Muhammad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikiblogs says 571, 22 ad

History of Islamic Civilization/The History of Prophet Muhammad - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

So does it.

 

[outhouse]

You will get different things in different places on google. Thats cannot be a source.

I read Wikipedia says 570/571 which means they are not sure.

Historicity of Muhammad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikiblogs says 571, 22 ad

History of Islamic Civilization/The History of Prophet Muhammad - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

So does it.

Your dancing around.

Wiki flat states this.

"Born approximately in 570 CE"

 

[jeager106]

Moshiur: I need not accept your opinions but I do respect them.
You have earned my respect tho we have different religions.
If you would cite credible sources it would help reinforce your opinions.
I never thought I would repect the opinions of a Muslim based on the terrible image
of Islam seen on the television news.
I don't undertand one bit why muslims murder other muslims including innocent women and babies. It's horrible to watch the news of these things going on in the Middle East in Arabic & African countries.
I will never understand taking up the sword ( or AK-47 and RPGs) to murder those of the same faith.
I don't think for a minute you would be involved with such crimes.
I'm sorry for getting off topic but I want you to know I appreciate your enthusiasum
for your faith and doctrine.

 

[outhouse]

I read Wikipedia says 570/571 which means they are not sure.

So do many Islamic websites.

 

[Moshiur]

Another muslim trying to convince the rest of us that Jesus was not crucified...
It just won't work.

You believe or not this is your own personal. I know few people will never accept the truth even if they see that thousands of time. So dont be that guy what is mentioned in the Quran 2:18 and matthew 13:13

"Deaf, dumb and blind, they not return (to the path)." [Quran 2:18]

"..Seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." [Matthew 13:13]

And I am gonna tell you why it won't work:

1) We don't care about what is written on the quran concerning this event.

You no need to care because truth is always truth. You cannot refute my 4 points.

2) Even if there are contradictions about what happened, all accounts in the bible consider Jesus to have died on the cross ( or perhaps something similar to a cross ) that day.

Thats not true actually. Crucifixion have several contradiction. That proves that the story of crucifixion is doubtfull.

3) You are as biased as someone could possibly be on this subject.

This is not biased. You cannot refute my 4 points. Even try to invite your pastor to refute that. Jesus himself prophecied that he will not die in Matthew 12:38-40 so, what you wanna say about that. Was he liar?

4) Although your post is long it is also superficial. The evidence you are bringing for your argument is highly circumstantial.

[/QUOTE]

Thats your another false claiming. You are not in point on debate except your own claiming.

 

[outhouse]

Historical Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Two widely accepted historical facts

Nonetheless, despite divergent scholarly opinions on the construction of portraits of the historical Jesus, almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts


So all modern historians claim the crucifixion to be a historical fact.

Here are the credible sources.

Jesus Remembered by James D. G. Dunn 2003 ISBN 0-8028-3931-2 page 339 states of baptism and crucifixion that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent".
Jesus of Nazareth by Paul Verhoeven (Apr 6, 2010) ISBN 1583229051 page 39

 

[Moshiur]

Peace be upon you, Moshiur, While I can accept that the Holy Koran was memorised and written down from the Prophet's(pbuh) words during or soon after his life. So unlike almost all the other religions scriptures, we know for sure the Prophet's(pbuh) words were very very accurately recorded and survive to this day in the exact same language, classical arabic. But not all of the Holy Koran was dictated to Mohammed(pbuh) by the angel, some of it was stories from the Old and New Testament times told to the prophet by Jews and Christians he knew. Mohammed had an incredible "photographic" memory, and memorised the entire holy Koran, but he could not write, I think someone told me his eyesight may have been poor, forgive me if I'm wrong.

Peace with you too brother. Here I have nothing to say. Bible old and new testament have several prophecy about Muhammad(pubh). I can make another thread for that. That time you will see.

I have read the holy Koran, but only once, I don't practice Islam, I worship GOD in my own way, I don't believe Jesus is a god, but I think maybe he was one of the most god like people I have read about. The reason I post so much on Islam, is I am very worried by the lies and propaganda in the media about Islam and Muslims. Muslims, Jews, Christians, and non believers can, and have lived together in peace before, and must live together on earth in peace in the future. Going to war because you think Allah is bad, and Jehovah is good, is insanity, because they are one and the same God. The best way to stop the spread of hate is to learn the truth, not the lies about Islam.

I agree with most of your statement. But its sad that you are not practising. You have to practice and learn deeply. When you will learn more then you surely your faith will be strong. Look at me, I am a comparative religion student. Not only bible, I study other religious scripture too. I have discovered and highly agree that Islam is the only true religion of God. So my faith is strong now. So when you will learn more tham your faith will be strong more. So my brother, pls learn and research. May God help you.

 

[outhouse]

Moshiur, we have been debating this for years with muslims. So far not one muslim has ever made a credible case that Jesus was not crucified.

I have discovered and highly agree that Islam is the only true religion of God.

This could be viewed as admitting religious bias, and has no part in credible historical studies.


If you went into the same faith section of this forum, you would find more welcoming replies.

 

[Moshiur]

Your dancing around.

Wiki flat states this.

"Born approximately in 570 CE"

Well, It also says 570/571 in another places. Again,

Historicity of Muhammad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikiblogs says 571, 22 ad

History of Islamic Civilization/The History of Prophet Muhammad - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

Thats not a clear statement. So I dont fully believe on wikipedia or other website. To you religious scripture is useless, to me wikipedia or others site is useless. Now do you understand?

 

[outhouse]

to me wikipedia or others site is useless.

Well that is to bad. Because I used two other sources that have nothing to do with Wiki

Jesus Remembered by James D. G. Dunn 2003 ISBN 0-8028-3931-2 page 339 states of baptism and crucifixion that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent".
Jesus of Nazareth by Paul Verhoeven (Apr 6, 2010) ISBN 1583229051 page 39

And in each of these this statement is made

Nonetheless, despite divergent scholarly opinions on the construction of portraits of the historical Jesus, almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts


So all modern historians claim the crucifixion to be a historical fact.

 

[outhouse]

Well, It also says 570/571 in another places. Again,

So do many Islamic websites.

 

[outhouse]

To you religious scripture is useless

I don't think this is an honest statement.

You have no idea the value I place on these text.

 

[AllanV]

Jesus made the claim that he could tear down the temple and rebuild it in 3 days. Elsewhere he said the body is a temple. It is highly likely the religious leaders didn't believe Him, didn't like what he was saying and wanted to prove it all wrong, therefore he was crucified in the usual manner of the time.
The over view of the Bible is that mankind was denied access to the tree of life and immortality by being put out of the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were rebellious and their mind and consciousness set the pattern of how people behave today. Sin means to miss the mark, or to not measure up and now the whole of creation displays death, predatory behavior, rusting, oxidizing and decay, entropy but the whole creation is in expectation of the revealing of the sons of God.
Crucifying is critical in the process of being changed from death to life, but it must occur in the mind when the consciousness of Adam is overcome and that of the none rebellious Jesus covers with His nature. God will then indwell powerfully and that is His request to Know Him.

 

[Moshiur]

Moshiur: I need not accept your opinions but I do respect them.
You have earned my respect tho we have different religions.

Thanks my brother. I also respect you because you seems to be a good Christian. In Quran, God says that pagan, jews are our enemy but true Christians are our nearest to I called you my brother.

"strongest among men in enmity to believe wilt thou find the jews and pagan: and nearest among them in love to believers wilt thou find those who say, "we are christians" because among these are men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant." [Quran 5:82]

I don't undertand one bit why muslims murder other muslims including innocent women and babies. It's horrible to watch the news of these things going on in the Middle East in Arabic & African countries.
I will never understand taking up the sword ( or AK-47 and RPGs) to murder those of the same faith.
I don't think for a minute you would be involved with such crimes.

Well, I know they are doing wrong. In history, same faith people did fight before too. We know the fight of catholic and protestant. So thats not new. Bible and Quran never says to fight with same faith people. Now let me tell you about this misconception about Islam.

If anyone do wrong, that doesnt mean their religion is wrong. Islam is the religion of Truth. Crusaders killed lots of innocent Jews and muslims in Europe. Again, Hitler killed likely 60,00000 Jews. So can I say Christianity is false religion or Bible says go and Kill 60,00000 Jews. No! So we have to Judge a religion by it's scripture and not by it's people.

In Arabic "Jihad" mean "Fight against the struggle"

Its not mean Holy war. Its a misconception about Islam. In Arabic Holy war mean "Harbul Mukadasha" But Quran or any Haddith doesnt mention this.

Jihad clearly means Fight against the Struggle. If any student work hard for a good result for his exam then actually he is doing Jihad.

Thats another meaning is "Fight for the sake of God."

Every religion says fight for the sake of God if its really need to do for peace. Example: Bible also says Fight for the sake of God. Jihad actually started with the Bible!

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, WERE TO BE PUT TO DEATH, whether small or great, man or women." [2 Chronicles, 15:13]

In Islam Jihad have many rules
which doesnt have in any other religion:

1. Muslims are not allowed to kill any innocent man:

In Islam slay any innocent man is the equal of the slay mankind.

"On that account: I ordained for the children of israel that if any one slew a person- unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land- IT WOULD BE AS IF HE SLEW THE WHOLE PEOPLE: AND IF ANY ONE SAVED A LIFE, IT WOULD BE AS IF HE SAVED THE LIFE OF THE WHOLE PEOPLE...." [Quran, 5:32]

2. Only fight with them who want to fight with you but if they want peace then let them do:

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress Limits: for God loveth not transgressors" [Quran, 2:190]

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God, for He is One that hearth and knoweth (all things)." [Quran, 8:61]

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion of God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdodrs" [Quran, 2:193]

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error..." [Quran, 2:226]

"Say, 'The Truth is from your LORD': Let him who will believe, and let him who will reject it..." [Quran, 18:29]

3. Killing women or children is not allowed in Islam while bible says killing everyone:

Narrated by 'Abdullah : During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a Women was found killed. God's Apostle DISAPPROVED THE KILLING OF CHILDREN AND WOMEN." [Sahaih Bukhari, volume 4, book 52, number 257]

Narrated by Umar: "Messenger of God forbade the killing of women and children." [Sahiah Bukhari, volume 4, book 52, number 258]

**In Bible many Prophets did Jihad too..

God commanded Moses for kill pagans:

"They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded moses, and killed every man...Now kill all the boys (innocent kids). And kill every women who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." [Numbers 31:7, 17-18]

Even jesus did jihad(fight against struggle):

"He said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag, and if you dont have a SWORD, sell your cloak and buy one SWORD." [Luke 22:36]

Here my question, why Jesus said to his disciples to buy a Sword? The answer obviouly is, because he wanted to fight against them to solve the struggle... Meaning Jesus also did Jihad.

Note: Now if you say suicide bombers are doing Jihad then you are wrong because suicide is Prohibited in Islam. Its a Great sin according to Quran. As God says:

"...Do not kill yourselvs: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful." [Quran, 4:29]

"If anyone do that in rancour and injustic, soon shall I cast him into the fire.." [Quran, 4:30]

Prophet Muhammad also says:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself

Also, brother you can ask me thousands of question regarding Islam. I have no problem.

 

[Moshiur]

Well that is to bad. Because I used two other sources that have nothing to do with Wiki

Nonetheless, despite divergent scholarly opinions on the construction of portraits of the historical Jesus, almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts

You can give me thousands of proof from wikipidia or any other website from christians or atheists web sites. Thats cannot make any point on me. Its totally unnecessary and useless to me. We are talking from scripture.

 

[Moshiur]

So do many Islamic websites.

Its from wikipidea, not Islamic page. This is dishonest reply.