• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Was Jesus real?

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Someone will counter that religious experience is merely 'subjective' and doesn't count.

Jeffrey's Subjective Probability: The Real Thing

Epistemology can be formulated into a framework, but any intersubjective framework is necessarily interpreted subjectively. Books like that above are among countless arguments about the way to get from the subjective experience to the objective reality. All experiences are subjective. The question is, what tools do you have to convince anybody and everybody that your experience is not only to be counted as evidence, but as evidence of a particular level? Anybody who dismisses subjective experience, religious or not, can be dismissed just as easily. The issue isn't subjectivity per se, but intersubjective epistemic frameworks that one can use to map subjective experience to collective knowledge.

And hence why as another mystic, Meister Eckhart said, "Theologians may quarrel, but mystics the world over speak the same language".

I don't believe he ever said that. It seems to be a common misattribution from something actually said by Louis Claude de Saint-Martin. Also, it's wrong. We have 2,000+ years of textual and other evidence of mystics quarrelling.


Such evidence is available to anyone who adequately performs the experiments, in the same way it is in any of the sciences

The difference is that in the sciences, performance matters little. Scientists can repeat perfect methods infinitely many times, and always be wrong because the underlying logic is wrong. What matters is whether the experiments are tested not just against other experiments, but other theories, other interpretations, various critiques, etc. The replication of a study is a bit of a misnomer. Doing the same thing someone else did is sometimes a good and important thing. However, the more important part of testing whether or not a study holds water is to test the logic underlying the experiment and see whether or not a different design that should test the same hypothesis does or does not agree with the original experiment. Artists can endlessly repeat or create novel styles. Once guns were widely used, it too centuries for generals to realize that military formations which had lasted over the last few millennia weren't any good. It should have been obvious at least by the civil war, yet it wasn't until nearly ~150 years later the repeated performance of strategies were finally realized to be no longer viable.

You simply have to learn how to use the tools in a qualified way, no different than some student learning how to properly align a telescope has to.
There is all the difference in the world between method, or any development of a system of practices (from martial arts to computer maintenance), and an epistemic framework based upon the use of particular methods and logic to evaluate not just the use of methods or the outcomes of their instantiations, but the underlying logic used by the researchers to arrive at their conclusion.
 

RedJamaX

Active Member
Hello all,

I am new to these forums, but I have already noticed a disturbing trend amongst many who believe that Jesus was not real. Now, I am Hindu and my knowledge of Christianity is limited, yet I have learned even in my college history classes that in the first and second centuries, there were more than 500 gospels describing the life and teachings of Jesus! Only the most accurate were used for the Bible, but my point is... there is no direct evidence that Jesus existed, no gravestones or books by him or something (at least I don't think there is), but a man who accomplished as much as Jesus caused a massive rippling effects and so much literary works concerning his life and teachings in such a short, precise timespan that there is no way it can be discarded or considered false. That is why, for those who do not believe Jesus is real... what is your historical evidence? Why do you believe he did not exist? 2000 years ago was not exactly a mythological or barbaric age, so the comments kinda shocked me.

First, it was closer to 50, not 500 gospels.

Second, we do not have ANY complete originals of any of them. The only complete versions we have are copies of copies of copies. When the phrase "original manuscript" is used, it typically refers to a few pages or even as little as a torn section of one single page that does not have even a single complete verse.

Third, during the copy process, the people making the copies would commonly add a side note which was not included in the revision they were copying. And then on the next copied revision, that "side note" was added as though it were part of the original story. There is physical evidence which shows that the entire crucifixion/resurrection sequence was added in that manner. This is because we have early copies of gospels without those verses, and then later revisions of those same gospels with the verses.

Fourth, the entire story of Jesus follows a standard literary structure which fits with that of a myth... including early life and later life references and fulfillment of prophecies. Only in religion is fulfillment of prophecy considered truth... and only because people WANT to believe it. I any other context in which prophecy exists, it is considered fiction, even by the same people who believe in the religious prophecies.

I suggest that you read books by Richard Carrier, or at the very least, watch the lectures and presentations he has on YouTube. If you don't understand that Jesus was a fictional character after taking in the analysis provided by Carrier, it's because you simply WANT to believe that Jesus was real.
 

RedJamaX

Active Member
Jesus would often seek a private place to pray, and he recommended that his followers do the same. The Bible says: “On the occasion of his being in a certain place praying, when he stopped, a certain one of his disciples said to him: ‘Lord, teach us how to pray’ . . . He said to them: ‘Whenever you pray, say, “Father, let your name be sanctified.”’” (Luke 5:16; 11:1, 2) Thus Jesus showed that prayers should be directed to his Father. He alone is our Creator and the “Hearer of prayer.”—Psalm 65:2.
but he never mentioned of praying to him.......God knows whether we really desire what we pray for or we are merely repeating a set of words. “When praying,” said Jesus, “do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations do, for they [wrongly] imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words.”—Matt. 6:7.
sometimes we assume that our deeds aren't bad or our actions contradict the Bible.
Jehovah is far away from the wicked ones, but the prayer of the righteous ones he hears proverbs 15:29

A book is a book is a book... they are all written by people with an agenda... Whether the agenda is to write a story for the sole purpose of entertainment... Or to provide a means to political and social influence.

If I quote Action Comics #1, does that prove that Superman was a real person?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
First, it was closer to 50, not 500 gospels.

It wasn't.

Second, we do not have ANY complete originals of any of them.
This is true of every important work from antiquity, from Plato through Caesar to Eusebeius.

The only complete versions we have are copies of copies of copies.
This is true. Of course, it is true of every manuscript from antiquity, and there is no other set of manuscripts better attested to than the NT, but it is true we have only copied. It's completely irrelevant to any historical analysis, and stating it is a mark of one's inadequate familiarity with classical texts, but it is true. It's just meaningless.


When the phrase "original manuscript" is used, it typically refers to a few pages or even as little as a torn section of one single page that does not have even a single complete verse.

This is wrong.

Third, during the copy process, the people making the copies would commonly add a side note which was not included in the revision they were copying.
So you read some source on textual criticism that defined a colophon. Was it online, Misquoting Jesus, or what?

There is physical evidence which shows that the entire crucifixion/resurrection sequence was added in that manner. This is because we have early copies of gospels without those verses, and then later revisions of those same gospels with the verses.

Nothing about this is correct, and the earliest descriptions of the "passion" pre-date the gospels.

Fourth, the entire story of Jesus follows a standard literary structure which fits with that of a myth
This is so unbelievably inaccurate it is had to imagine, were it not for the accounts of modern interpretations of "mythology" I've written about. Still, ignorance is not an excuse for assertions that have no basis.


I suggest that you read books by Richard Carrier
I've read almost everything he's published including his dissertation. He is full of ****. All that crap about Bayes' Theorem (which he can't comprehend, as he demonstrates), he advocated as the basis for historical analysis before his dissertation. Yet he didn't use it. Why? Because it's crap, and unless he's dealing with ignorant admirers of his blog posts it doesn't fly. His dissertation was fantasy, and had it been about Jesus he could have ripped apart. But when he's not spouting dogma and has to actually deal with scholarship, all of a sudden his "Bayes' theorem" and his entire critical analysis is put aside.


If you don't understand that Jesus was a fictional character after taking in the analysis provided by Carrier, it's because you simply WANT to believe that Jesus was real.

Or because one is familiar with 200 years of scholarship and doesn't depend on cheap books and blogs rather than scholarship.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't believe he ever said that. It seems to be a common misattribution from something actually said by Louis Claude de Saint-Martin.
Possible. Where have you seen this stated?

Also, it's wrong. We have 2,000+ years of textual and other evidence of mystics quarrelling.
Theologians, or mystics? How are you defining mystics? Why I favor such a statement is because at a point of mystical realization, how you speak about things is not speculative thoughts about possibilities you imagine things to be as, but rather simply finding decent ways to try to talk about it in the hope it may convey some half-ways adequate way to describe it. There is a difference. The symbols used will vary, but the portrait is the same. Sort of like using charcoal, or oils, or colored pencils, etc to draw ones impression of the sunset. It's still the sunset.

Theologians have to have one set of descriptions to be considered valid. Mystics don't.

The difference is that in the sciences, performance matters little. Scientists can repeat perfect methods infinitely many times, and always be wrong because the underlying logic is wrong.
Not to dismiss what you're saying about the underlying logic, but let's not minimize the need to know what the heck you're doing in performing the experiment though. You have to be qualified to perform the test regardless of the merit of the underlying premises in what you are trying to evaluate. You have to know how to use the tools regardless. So some kid at home saying, "Yeah, I tried it myself and it didn't work! Those scientists are stupid!", is highly questionable as being valid in any sense of the word.

In the same sense, someone saying they tried meditation and nothing happened, does not in any sense invalidate it as a proper tool for this sort of inquiry, nor the results that those who use these tools disclose, again and again, repeatedly. Next, we can argue about how they talk about these things and what they mean, but not the fact that it repeatedly produces actual, tangible results.

What matters is whether the experiments are tested not just against other experiments, but other theories, other interpretations, various critiques, etc. The replication of a study is a bit of a misnomer. Doing the same thing someone else did is sometimes a good and important thing. However, the more important part of testing whether or not a study holds water is to test the logic underlying the experiment and see whether or not a different design that should test the same hypothesis does or does not agree with the original experiment.
Are they other ways to test the data disclosed in meditation? Sure. Yes. It has at the least a measurable result on a physiological level in such things as brain scans. This indicates something is going on, and that something is distinctly different than just normal activities registered in the brain. There is also other means of measuring results beyond brain scans, touching into many areas that can likewise be studied and examined.

The sole issue I see is a quibbling about the 'explanation', or the metaphysics or theologies one uses to describe these experiences. There are reasons why metaphysics are better suited, but the issue seems those who need it to not be metaphysical, where such language is unacceptable. And so therefore, somehow, it's not "real", when in fact something tangible actually is occurring. So it's not just the data disclosed from the practitioners, it's objectively observable by someone outside. The content of what is disclosed however can only, ever be describe by the one looking through the telescope themselves. Or those who create theoretical models based on a collection of such descriptions.

There is all the difference in the world between method, or any development of a system of practices (from martial arts to computer maintenance), and an epistemic framework based upon the use of particular methods and logic to evaluate not just the use of methods or the outcomes of their instantiations, but the underlying logic used by the researchers to arrive at their conclusion.
And this is where qualified researchers come in. Some hack outside the community can't sit in judgment of its value or truth. But yes, I do believe with more information, better ways to understand a model these things come to light. I don't believe the mystic community believes it is looking at a static thing, such as the myth of a pre-given universe is to those who think science will give us all answers to all things, if we can just figure out how it works. It's a lot more living, organic, and dynamic than all that.
 

RedJamaX

Active Member
Or because one is familiar with 200 years of scholarship and doesn't depend on cheap books and blogs rather than scholarship.


So... Richard Carrier is not a scholar because he doesn't support a ridiculous fairy tale that you happen to believe? His analysis includes analyzing the way all books and literary references are perceived and how the religious writings seem to get some sort of pass, and the rules just don't apply to them...

And the main point he makes is not that there is more evidence to suggest that Jesus was simply a fictional character rather than a real person. Keep your delusion if you want.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And the main point he makes is not that there is more evidence to suggest that Jesus was simply a fictional character rather than a real person. Keep your delusion if you want.
Such assumptions! :) *pulls up chair and waits with a smile on face for Legion's response*
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So... Richard Carrier is not a scholar because he doesn't support a ridiculous fairy tale that you happen to believe?
1) I'm not Christian. I'm not religious. So before you make assumptions like the above, check whether they're accurate.
2) You haven't read anything Richard Carrier has written on ancient history, and unless you are intimately familiar with machine learning, statistical hypothesis testing, and everything else Carrier inaccurately describes as "Bayes' theorm", don't bother commenting on his expertise unless you don't care about truth.
3) You haven't read the fairy tails Carrier has published in order to get his doctorate. I have. When you've read these and you can explain what he regards as evidence when he actually is dealing with scholars, then talk to me about your opinion of Carrier. Until then, you're just another person who's read a few sources with no clue about the scholarship behind the historical Jesus and has relied on a man who doesn't follow his own methods.
3) You can spout "fairy tail" as much as you want. When you have read actual historians from the Greeks through the Hellenistic period up to the middle ages in Greek and Latin, or even know what these are, all you are doing is multiplying how limited you knowledge is. In the year or so since I became a member, I've been involved in hundreds of posts on this issue when my own field is completely unrelated (neuroscience), but as I know Greek, Latin, German, French, and am ok with Italian and Hebrew, and as I'm interested in history, I've read scholarship dating back from over 2 centuries on this subject. You offer Carrier and rhetoric.

His analysis includes analyzing the way all books and literary references are perceived and how the religious writings seem to get some sort of pass, and the rules just don't apply to them...

He's a historian. I work with Bayesian analysis for everything from neural codes to statistical learning. I've read most of the books he cites on Bayes', and he's wrong. I don't know if it's lying, his being to stupid too understand what he cites (I don't think this is true; I'd imagine the disconnect lies elsewhere), or just not caring. But I do know that he's wrong.

And the main point he makes is not that there is more evidence to suggest that Jesus was simply a fictional character rather than a real person. Keep your delusion if you want.

Based on what scholarship? A bunch of websites?
 
Last edited:

outhouse

Atheistically
I suggest that you read books by Richard Carrier, .


Figures, another mythicist not knowing who knows "what" about anything in the field.


I liked him when I didnt know anything and that was just his early work.



As Legion stated his new work is pathetic and easily refuted.




There is no real debate about Jesus historicty, just a very very small percetage of people that attack historical methods they know little to nothing about to begin with.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
And the main point he makes is not that there is more evidence to suggest that Jesus was simply a fictional character rather than a real person. Keep your delusion if you want.

Thats not true, that is only his unfounded opinion.

His evidence he provides is out of context half the time to promote his view.

It is easily refutable.


Like most mythicist, he focusses on Paul only because Paul didnt know Jesus and Paul focused on the theology through mythology, and his Christ in Heaven, Of course he was in heaven, he was dead.

Neither Earl nor Carrier provide any real link to a heavenly only Jesus without leaps of imagination.


They then place the later gospels as dependant of this prevous mythology laid by paul which is foolish since he wasny close to the only teacher of anything. Just the one whos writing survived due to popularity.
 

Viraja

Jaya Jagannatha!
Well, 2 things:

1. If Jesus existed, what would have been his karma that the divine granted him such a torture?

2. How can his sacrifice wipe out the sins of others, if it be argued that his birth was to wipe out the sins of others?

Due to the above reasons, I feel atleast partially what is said about Jesus, especially his crucification may not be real. But I think a saintly man called Jesus did live to spread the message of peace.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Jesus was indeed not a real person but at the most he was entirely nothing like we think. There is no direct evidence to support his existence despite the literacy and constant recording in Greek history.

Another individual who surprisingly did not exist was Muhammad for example. He did not exist in the manner in which we think now.

[youtube]XKAHoYCWXF8[/youtube]
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
*pulls up chair and waits with a smile on face for Legion's response*
Yet once again I let irritation and lack of sleep get the better of me, and disappoint (at least disappoint myself, as I wouldn't presume to speak for others, just suggest they view the response as disappointing). I could have done better by using the space the scornful words in my post took up as space in which to explain more thoroughly the problem with Carrier and perhaps a few links to sources.

And although I wish it were not so, I will do the same again, alas. But I do hope that the disappointing posts become less and less frequent than those that are not.

Carrier is a historian. Those who read him should be able to gain an understanding of history and trust that even if his views are contentious, they aren't so radical that he finds himself alone, advocating a method he doesn't use and flaunting a degree in a field he doesn't publish in (and although he had no problem being called a classicist in a volume he contributed to, he castigated Ehrman for calling him one later). One should be able to read his work and at least gain something more than a complete misconception of historical study in general and historical Jesus studies in particular. Ergo, it's not fair to lay blame solely on those who rely on him even when they insist they no what it is they are speaking about without having done the requisite research. Carrier is more to blame than those who trust in his credentials.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yet once again I let irritation and lack of sleep get the better of me, and disappoint (at least disappoint myself, as I wouldn't presume to speak for others, just suggest they view the response as disappointing). I could have done better by using the space the scornful words in my post took up as space in which to explain more thoroughly the problem with Carrier and perhaps a few links to sources.
Oh it wasn't your lack of clear thoughts, it was the assumption about your beliefs heaped upon you because you doubt the atheist idol, Richard Carrier! :) Suddenly, you're a fundamentalist, Bible-blinders Dawkin's Delusional believer. Believe me, I'm amused by those who try to grasp to pigeon-hole me as well. I just know you, and in no way did that label fit you.

Carrier is a historian. Those who read him should be able to gain an understanding of history and trust that even if his views are contentious, they aren't so radical that he finds himself alone, advocating a method he doesn't use and flaunting a degree in a field he doesn't publish in (and although he had no problem being called a classicist in a volume he contributed to, he castigated Ehrman for calling him one later). One should be able to read his work and at least gain something more than a complete misconception of historical study in general and historical Jesus studies in particular. Ergo, it's not fair to lay blame solely on those who rely on him even when they insist they no what it is they are speaking about without having done the requisite research. Carrier is more to blame than those who trust in his credentials.
I agree. Your knowledge and scope of exposure in academic areas is truly admired by me.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
There is no living Jesus. Yet one could say there is a living common ideology of Jesus.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
If only somebody had thought about that before! Oh wait. They did. In the 1830s. Right about the time the mythicist argument began.


It's the myth of mythology. A process that started a long time ago, with armchair anthropologists like Frazer or Bachofen, and continues today: the myths one hears about concerning Zeus, Attis, Bacchus, Mithras, Hercules, etc., are all lumped together into one big collection as if anybody in antiquity thought that received myth was religion. Mythology, as commonly understood, didn't exist in antiquity. It was created mostly in the past few centuries by cutting and pasting from ancient novels, plays, comedies, etc. The fact that many of the "myths" of Greek religion were never part of Greek religion but were stories made up to be understood as made-up stories (and comical at that) is well-known among historians of antiquity, but not those whose interest in ancient history stops at whether Jesus existed (and even then is not enough to motivate actual research).

Sure, take my "it's the mythology" completely out of its context and go on a meaningless tangent to what I actually stated. I have no problem with that but just don't expect me to respond to it.


Sure. The fact that we have more evidence for Jesus than for just about anyone of antiquity is all a construct by that vast conspiracy of biblical scholars and classicists who repeat the same story about a historical Jesus for fear of being booted out of scholarship. However, the "quest" for this historical Jesus, at least according to the one (Schweitzer) who's responsible for calling it that, began with an attempt to undermine Christianity and by the time Schweitzer wrote his history of the quest in in 1906, we'd already heard most of the mythicist arguments, and Schweitzer covered their problems. In 1925, Maurice Goguel published Jésus de Nazareth: Mythe ou histoire? which again surveyed the mythicist position, only now included those like Drews and Couchould. In Metzger's bibliographic reference (Index to Periodical Literature on the Gospels), we can add other names, such as Dunkmann, Arkroyd, and Windisch. By now, pretty much every argument that continues to be regurgitated (due in particular to the internet) existed and was addressed repeatedly. After the 1920s, only a handful of scholars in any field questioned that Jesus existed, as we already had addressed this question and the arguments marshaled for it since around 1830. And mythicism was relegated to the amateurs who deliberately lied and misused what knowledge of the ancient world they had. Wells was an exception, as he was a scholar (albeit one of German studies), but he backed off of his position by Dunn's 1985 The Evidence for Jesus. Since that time, various works of varying quality have been produced with much the same goal: demonstrating the evidence we have and why no historians doubt that Jesus existed.

Then mythicism gained a new champion with Richard Carrier, the guy who flaunts his degree in ancient history yet has published almost nothing on the subject and the one major work he has published (his dissertation) is among the most speculative work I've ever seen. He also didn't bother to use his infamous "Bayes' Theorem" that he had already twice, in published works, advocated for any and all historical studies. Apparently, what he meant was that when he wanted to be able to dismiss historical studies, then they should have used Bayes'. But when he wanted his PhD in ancient history, it was ok to reject his own methods because he was no longer dealing with his blog fans but people who had actually studied history.

However, mythicism has and will continue, because just like creationism, conspiracy theories, and every subculture which rejects the authority of the specialists and relies on whatever information supports what it is they believed in the first place, mythicists care only about Jesus not being real and will continue to approach the subject from that viewpoint.




Yes, and besides, what would a tautology be without appeals to authority?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus was indeed not a real person but at the most he was entirely nothing like we think.

Who is "we"? Every monograph, books, or set of volumes by some author on Jesus portrays the historical person differing from every other portrait in some way (which holds true of modern biographies of those still living and of those recently deceased). Usually, the differences concern which of the "roles" he played (teacher, prophet, preacher, would-be messiah, sectarian leader, etc.) was more focal than another or didn't exist at all (like the Jewish Cynic of Crossan and others).

There is no direct evidence to support his existence despite the literacy and constant recording in Greek history.

If this constant recording in Greek history ever existed, we have no evidence of it. In a period spanning ~1,000 years, we have significant portions of only a handful of ancient "biographies", usually written a century or more after the death of person the biographer wrote about.

Also, what would "direct evidence" constitute?

For example, we have inscriptions or similar evidence on statues, mosaics, vases, etc., bearing the names of famous emperors. We have the same evidence for deities and mythical heroes (especially those of Homer).

We have literary records, such as the works of Plato. Only his depiction of Socrates is fundamentally different not only from other portraits of Socrates, but from his own. Hence the comment by Vlastos that the only way Plato's Socrates could be a real person was if Socrates were schizophrenic (I think he probably meant to refer to multiple personality disorder/DID, or otherwise associated schizophrenia with personality disorders that involve abrupt, significant personality changes). Then there is the fact that we have letters of Plato all of which may be pseudepigrapha and some of which definitely are.

We have biographers like Diogenes Laerties writing about philosophers who lived many centuries ago and which contain mythical accounts of miracles or magic, rumor, legends, and other components that would not counted as biographical today.

We have reports written by Caesar
1) Which we don't know if he wrote in pieces, sending back propaganda, or composed as a whole
2) That speak of mythical creatures
3) That are clearly designed to be propaganda (and contain, as a result of this intention, lies and distortions).

We have an enormous amount of evidence about Greco-Roman religious (cultic) practice and the formation of Jewish monotheism. Our knowledge of the first century of the roman empire in general and Galilee and similar regions in particular has improved vastly by sociological studies and the final report on the years spent excavating in Galilee. There's still a lot we don't know about aspects of Jewish religion during Jesus' day (what role did the synagogue play, to what extend were the Pharisees as prominent before the 30s, did the typical person living in Judaea or in the diaspora tend to lend credence to the notion of an oral torah, how long did it take those who were or were akin to the Pharisees to go from what they were before the destruction of the temple to becoming rabbis, and when did torah study replace the "temple" in terms of religious function, etc.). However, thanks to those like Neusner, Vermes, Horsley, Feldman, and many others, we are significantly better informed than we were a mere 30 years ago.

Which brings us to secondary sources. The biblical and classical scholars who created historical-critical analysis, lexicography, comparative and historical linguistics, textual criticism, etc. The historical Jesus was a focus of study before Reimarus, he was just the first to focus on the entirety of the evidence and not just to determine whether some particular component of the historical Jesus was wrong, but whether there was any basis for Christianity. He didn't deny Jesus existed, but as we haven't even gotten to the 18th century yet. By the 1830s, Strauß had already defeated the attempts of the rationalists to recover a non-miracle Jesus, and perhaps his greatest critic was Bauer, the first mythicist. And we're still in the 1830s. A century later, the only mythicists left were amateurs, as they were the only ones unfamiliar with the historical scholarship by mythicists and the responses.

There is only one other person who was and is as studied (or nearly) as the historical Jesus: the historical Socrates. In fact, some of the same scholars contributed to the study of both. So the question becomes, how did they all get it so wrong? How did the disciplines which created modern history as we know it, as well as the tools used today by every historian of the ancient world, fail to understand after 200+ years that Jesus was a myth?

Perhaps because they didn't.
1) They were historians continually refining their craft which today incorporates studies from anthropology; methods in linguistics; the psychology of memory, perception, and the nature of cognitive errors in human judgment from cognitive science research; models of orality before it became a field unto itself and after; socioeconomic models; the scientific study of religion and religious movements; archaeology; and much more.
2) Mythicists are typically unable even to read most of both the primary and secondary literature even were they so inclined.
3) Most wouldn't read it even if they could, a fact evidenced by the almost utter lack of any research whatsoever among the plethora of studies written in English.
4) They rely on amateurs to form an opinion of what the study of ancient history typically involves that is grossly inaccurate.
5) Most of the various blogs, books, and other mythicist writings are filled with errors. Such authors misquote their sources, sensationalize, ignore inconvenient methods or facts as well as scholarship, and make things up (e.g., Archarya S/D. M. Murdock's use of Herodotus to show that the Hellenistic Mithras was around before Jesus by reference to a passage about a goddess).

Unfortunately, most of the scholarship on the subject is either non-technical and therefore unconvincing, or is difficult to obtain and frequently too technical to understand. But there have been and still are decent books which are not nearly as long as Meier's 4 volume account, yet are not as simplistic as Ehrman's popular books, and which are designed to demonstrate why historians believe we have more than enough evidence to say Jesus existed (as well as some other basic facts). They do not start with the assumption that Jesus existed.

However, despite the fact that they are quite willing to buy books by Carrier or Ehrman (before his latest, anyway), mythicists are more likely to have read Doherty or Wells than to have read any of the various books of the type mentioned above. They don't want to be objective, and so they read selectively.

Meanwhile, outside of this tiny bubble is a massive amount of research which has become increasingly sophisticated and interdisciplinary in volumes, journals, monograph series, etc., that are almost never mentioned in any mythicist writings ever. Most don't know these exist. They assume that the field is of a particular nature because they are told that by amateurs repeatedly and this stance becomes dogma. It is given as an excuse not to do research, it is given as a reason that virtually no historians in almost a century have argued that Jesus is a myth (but have addressed mythicist arguments), and becomes a foundation for constructing an illusion not just of historical Jesus research but of the entire study of ancient history.

It's the reason for statements like this: "the literacy and constant recording in Greek history" which anybody who read Carrier's dissertation would know is false.

Another individual who surprisingly did not exist was Muhammad for example. He did not exist in the manner in which we think now.

There is no equivalent to the historical Jesus quest or the Socratic problem within scholarship on Muhammad. First, very few Western scholars cared that much. Second, the "historical" scholarship within Islam has a lengthy tradition which relies on methods that aren't considered historical today. Third, biblical scholars have said everything from "all of Christianity is based on a mutation of what Jesus actually preached" to "Jesus was a hippie whose body was eaten by dogs". However, a sketch of Muhammad can initiate a fatwa and cause a national debate. So even though historical scholarship does exist, there isn't much and it has tended to accept the division of ahadith established centuries ago.

That said, like Jesus and Socrates, we know at least that they existed and some other basic facts. It's just that for the other two we can go farther by looking at what the vast majority of historical scholarship has demonstrated convincingly (relative to radical ideas like e.g., Craig's use of "history" to show Jesus rose from the dead or Eisenman's analysis of the Qumran finds). No such wealth of scholarship exists for Muhammad.
 
Last edited:

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, and besides, what would a tautology be without appeals to authority?
It wouldn't be a tautology.

Tautologies are things like the statement "either it's raining or it isn't". Circular reasoning, bad methods, and/or work built upon assumptions are not tautologies. If historical Jesus studies rested upon tautologies somehow, then such studies would necessarily be valid. That's what tautology means. Something that is true no matter what (NOT something believed to be true no matter what; it's an issue of logic, thus the only belief one needs is in logic).

Sure, take my "it's the mythology" completely out of its context and go on a meaningless tangent to what I actually stated. I have no problem with that but just don't expect me to respond to it.

Either you were making statements about the origins of Christianity, in which case what I said was on target, or you were referring to historical Jesus studies themselves, in which case I wasn't on target.

However, if the latter is the case, and your "massive rippling effect" is the mythology created within scholarship, then it's demonstrably false. The historical Jesus "quest" began with a historical analysis that sought to show Christianity was based on lies. The "ripple" caused by this work was a series of rationalizations until Strauß showed that these failed. The miracles that scholars in the later 18th and early 19th centuries tried to rationalize thanks to challenges like that of Reimarus were ended when Strauß showed such elements were integral components of the gospel narratives. After that, another ripple took place. Actually, a better term would be a phase shift as the social sciences, like physicists, biologists, neuroscientists, etc., deal with complex dynamical systems. A ripple, or complex chain reaction, describes here an initial state of the system (biblical scholars) in which a parameter (a work of one scholar, several works from a few scholars, etc.) causes the system to transition into a new phase space.

The new space after Strauß was the liberal lives. Schweitzer's work was the most influential in ending this. After that, there was a rather lengthy period of time in which the question was avoided to the extent possible, and the focus turned to early Christian origins. That ended with the death toll for form criticism, and was followed by the interdisciplinary approach described in my last post.

Either way, what you said does not have a basis in reality, and apart from claims about biases within scholarship you have not read you still (after so much time) cannot offer more than an opinion formed by minimal research. There's nothing wrong with not knowing about the topic and yet believing Jesus didn't exist. But you aren't and have not done that. You have repeatedly made unsubstantiated claims about biblical scholarship and antiquity.
 
Last edited:

RedJamaX

Active Member
Based on what scholarship? A bunch of websites?

Nope... simple plausibility...
what's more likely?

A. There is a theistic god who knows everything, created man from dirt (why is dirt ok, but water from 3 billion years ago isn't? hmmm), created woman from his rib (oh wait, we still have that rib), sent a talking snake to convince them to eat fruit that he placed in a spot he knew they would eat it and then punish them for something he knew would happen... just so that later on he could get ****** at everybody, as though he didn't know it would happen even though he did, so he could wipe them all out and create a rainbow (oh, and he forgot to tell the Egyptians that they all died)... Then go down to earth and impregnate a virgin to give birth to himself, so he could later torture and kill himself, sacrificing himself, to himself, to give his creation (humans) a way out of burning in the hell he created for them if they followed the path that he knows they would because he already knows what somebody is going to do when he creates them....

B. It's all a fairly tale created for the sole purpose of creating a system of obedience and order and preventing free thought among the commoners in society.

Now, I'm going to be a little abrasive... Just as many theists claim that "everybody inherently knows that god exists, and atheists just deny that knowledge so they can sin freely"....

I say - If you believe Jesus was real at all.... Then you are buying into whole package laid out in option A, which is a complex illusion meant to keep you being a sheep (it's not a coincidence they used a sheep for the metaphor). And if you are trying to convince yourself of the apologetic side of things and claiming "no, no, he was real person, but the magic isn't real"... then you already don't believe it and it's only a matter of time before you realize and accept that fact and come to terms with the fact that it's all a farce, just like every other religion that exists, or has existed throughout the history of human-kind.
 
Top