Thief
Rogue Theologian
God is the Creator.
Evolution is how He did it.
Chapter Two of Genesis shows He is willing to 'speed things along'.
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Was it fair to kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden?
- Thread starter poseur
- Start date
God is the Creator.
Evolution is how He did it.
Chapter Two of Genesis shows He is willing to 'speed things along'.
gnostic
The Lost One
thief said:
You do realise that you are referring to abiogenesis and you're confusing abiogenesis with evolution, don't you?
Evolution is only about change of the species (through natural selection and the survival of the fittest). Genes that adapt to the changing environment, will see one species surviving.
But the thing is that evolution happened through the normal process of reproduction. Evolution is not about creating new life out of nothing, or life out of inorganic substances.
Many of the species that are here today, thief, haven't changed much for 6000 (the supposed creation of Adam) and 13000 years (YEC's preferred dating of creation of the supposed creation of Earth), though a number of animal species have become extinct due to man's exploitation (either through hunting or destruction of the animal's habitats).
With regards to the homo species, Neanderthal died out in Europe, 30,000 years ago. Well out of range of any of the Biblical Adam.
The human or the homo sapiens have been around for 200,000-plus years. Plus because we keep evidences that push the homo sapiens back further in time. Evidences of true modern human (or the homo sapiens sapiens) have been around as long as 50,000 years. And the earth is supposed to not exist 50,000 years ago.
So how does God or Adam fit in all this? Was there an Adam? Or is the creation in Genesis merely an allegory or parable?
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EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
I would disagree here, in the sense that this god is not The Creator but rather a part of the Creation as we are.
What is referred to as God, is an archetypal image and in Principle, the natural ordering of the objective universe personified.
rvalin
New Member
Instead of punishment this can be viewed as the natural consequence of their own behavior of giving in to the temptation (ego) to seperate from God. This represents a move from Unity (the Garden of Eden) to duality where existence becomes problematic and suffering and mortality begin.
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The beauty of science is that it knows it is not complete and changes as evidence arrives that can prove theories which are all we really have. With God there is a different view. That is that you can give a process a name even if you do not understand and cannot test it. So there is usually a creation myth in every culture and gods of storm, sea, earth, heaven, sun, moon etc. Both views are compatible - the proof just needs to be found for a particular theory. You might for example find proof of 'enlightenment' or 'clairvoyance' but not of angels although you will be hard pushed to do so. Then you test the guru (submerge a yogi in water for a day perhaps) or do scientific tests on Uri Geller bending spoons. Even if they succeed at these tests the matter is not conclusive. Years later you might find out how they did it - as with magic tricks. But the best way is to use your own self as the laborotory. So you might try talking to your 'self' at the end of your life, or at the end of the week. if you find yourself there talking back you might want to try again. It can be very helpful in life to have this ability. I might then be able to tell you what will be on the news next week but you will not be able to 'believe' me and nor will I till I see that particular news. This is what happens to form religions. We start believeing someone we really cannot prove is right or wrong unless we are personally testing them out. Many people do such tests and become firm believers. Others never doubt and do no tests. I can show you how some of the best tricks were done but logic and science and religions dictate that we have a single mother ancestor. We might have more than one 'father' as genes, DNA and blood tests suggest. The Bible tells us of at least two alien visits and incidences of genetic mixing (First Generation Day 6, Adam, The sons of god 'visiting', The angel appearing to Mary and making her pregnant) which all seems impossible unless there really is life out there, but for which there is no spaceship wreckage at present to assist our test. Why not try talking to 'Eve' and ask her? I did. We can see if she is consistent and tells you the same thing, which is good science and religion happily combined.
Heneni
Miss Independent
If God did not banished them out of the garden they would have eaten of the tree of life after eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and would have been immortalized in a fallen state. To banish them was better than to let them (mankind) be forever ruined.
God bless
Heneni
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
I guess since we are theistically talking about this:
The reason behind the Fall is often described as being hubris, man's search for knowledge and forces that originally were not meant for him to acquire. The Left Hand Path leads to a second birth, a spiritual rebirth as a god/creator. Lucifer shows this direction as the Serpent.
The original Tree of Life did not contain the material world, instead the non-Sephira Daath existed., united by paths with Kether (above), Chokmah, Binah, Geburah and Tiphareth (below). The Fall has corrupted this Tree of Life and shifted the Sephira.
Lucifer-Daath, the original Serpent, represents the divine force of creation that is able to carry out the idea of creation. Lucifer-Daath sinks down to man's level and awakens the power of creation and the sexual energy in man. Thus, man can reach the knowledge which was previously only accessible to God.
Gnostic Gospel: Reality of Rulers (Nag Hammadi)
"It is Samael and his fellow 'rulers' of the Darkness (Eph.6:12), not the true God, who formed Adam's physical body, set him to work in Paradise, "to till and cultivate it" then put him to sleep and fashioned his female partner out of his rib.
It is this God that commanded Adam not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, which could open his eyes to the Truth. When Adam & Eve, enlightened by the feminine spiritual principle who appeared to her in the form of the Serpent and deified them.
God threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that humankind might be occupied with worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the Holy Spirit / Higher-Self.
In Reality:
As Jung saw so clearly, the tradition of a Fall from the Garden of Eden' is an archetype. The Original Sin is Man's guilt of being carnivorous and lycanthropic.
We are all descended from males of the carnivorous lycanthropic variety, a mutation evolved under the pressure of hunger caused by the climatic change at the end of the pluvial period, which induced indiscriminate, even cannibalistic predatory aggression, culminating in the rape and sometimes even in the devouring of the females of the original peaceful fruit-eating bon sauvage remaining in the primeval virgin forests.
It was the 'clothes of skin' and the 'aprons of fig-leaves', that produced the nakedness of man, and not the other way round, the urge to cover man's nudity that led to the invention of clothing. It is obvious that neither man nor woman could be 'ashamed' (Gen. ii. 25) or 'afraid because they were naked' (Gen. iii. 10 f.) before they had donned their animal's pelt or hunters' 'apron of leaves', and got so accustomed to wearing it that the uncovering of their defenseless bodies gave them a feeling of cold, fear and the humiliating impression of being again reduced to the primitive fruit-gatherer's state of a helpless 'unarmed animal' exposed to the assault of the better-equipped enemy.
The uncovered body could not have been considered 'indecorous' or 'im-moral'.
The very feeling of sin, the consciousness of having done something 'im-moral', contrary to the mores, customs or habits of the herd, could not be experienced before a part of the herd had wrenched itself free from the inherited behaviour-pattern and radically changed its way of life from that of a frugivorous to that of a carnivorous or omnivorous animal.
- from a lecture delivered at a meeting of the Royal Society of Medicine by ROBERT EISLER First published in 1951 by Routledge and Kegan Paul Limited Broadway House, 68-74 Carter Lane, London, B.C.4
Printed in Great Britain by Butler and Tanner Limited Frome and London
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Still trying to count God out?
Adam is the first son of God.....chosen son of God.
First to walk in the presence of God.....that sort of thing.
That he was placed in a garden and sheltered is obvious.
The alteration took hold and he was cloned to keep the alteration...
oncoming.
And I didn't mention life from nothing.
God created Man....by evolution.
Made and alteration in the isolated environment of the 'garden'.
What...God is not allowed to tweak His handiwork?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
outhouse
Atheistically
why do you read genesis literally?
it was a fable taken from sumerian mythology passed down orally for hundreds of years before hebrews wrote it down and then edited it many times before a few different versions found there way into what we now know. There are 5 different unknown authors. To read it Literally is to loose its whole meaning.
Then you have to pick and choose changing your interpretation values to even find a happy middle ground to get the story close to reality which still isnt plausible.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
outhouse
Atheistically
why would that be "too bad"
do you believe the world is 6000 years old?
do you believe the world is frim on its foundation on pilars?
do you believe there was a worldwide flood that covered the highest mountain by over 20'?
do you believe a man has lived over 900 years old?
do you believe noah really had two or seven [depending on which version] of every animal on the planet?
do you believe man was created in one day?
do you believe everything was created in a week, 7 -24 hour days?
gnostic
The Lost One
thief said:
I see...A man of science, who spin the story of Adam with your interpretation, mixing it with evolution, that God is involved with evolution. You do realise that you have no more evidences to your version of the Genesis than the usual run-of-the-mill literal interpretation.
It (your version) is still "make-believe".
Would give you A for active and wild imagination. But a big fat F for it not being scientifically plausible.
Evolution is not a storybook, thief.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Of course it's a story.....
like any other science fiction story....
rooted in theory....
supported by equation....
altogether feasible....
but it's all fiction.....no proof either way.
believe one or the other....and the discussion continues...
believe both and you have...resolve.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
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outhouse
Atheistically
since you believe parts of genesis and not all im asking questions to figure out where your coming from.
if you cant answer i understand
Genesis does not say the world is 6000 years old. We deduce 'Adam' was born around 4000BC because a King David is known to have ruled around 1000BC and we have all the generations there. Adam was not made at the beginning of the world, nor till long after the 6th day when male and females were made (you can see my previous post for the chapter and verse in Genesis). As we are now in the latter days perhaps the world is not so secure on its foundations but we know there was a flood around the Iraq area about 3000BC and it is now thought that the Black Sea may have been involved. Look at the floods now. They could be worse. Noah and a pair of animals retained is quite plausible if you accept the possibility of extra terrestial life at some time in the last 7000 years. If so you can understand how our genes were tinkered with and how even now we are trying to save all species with seed and DNA banks. Perhaps we are the Noahs and the story was a prophecy.
900 years old? Our bodies are up to that and soon with stem cell help will do so again, if they did. Clones seem to have descendants with shrinking lifespans and capabilities but I may be wrong as I do not work with clones (I think). So if genes were tampered with as they are now then they may have had long lifespans. Egypt has reigns measuring such lengths in its early history but this is dismissed as fantasy. They would not knowingly lie however.
outhouse
Atheistically
atleast you have a great take on it close to what I believe reality is.
your right the noah story does go back to the sumerian flood of the euphrates in 2900BC, There may have been a david 1000bc based on 2 or 3 controversial peices of evidence. BsD probably would never have survived the length of time through oral traditions.
But if one looks at the fiction added to noahs story and to davids story you can safely see how little non fiction if any is present in either story and realize adam and eve is fiction as well. The only possibly truth behind the story might be that adam was the first hebrew but if you read the sumerian story of adamu you see a clear path in which hebrews stole the creation story.
outhouse
Atheistically
not any time soon.
the bible makes these same false claims of long life, the jewish people know to read these fables allegorically.
christians however still take a literal translation to even these old age fables
