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Was Bahaullah a well-grounded in knowledge people of Quran?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, Apr 16, 2019.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Was Bahaullah a well-grounded in knowledge people of Quran?

    Was he, please? Wasn't he, please?
    Thread open to every religion believing or no-religion people.

    Regards

    I was prompted to start this thread in view of our friend @loverofhumanity post #73, in this forum .
    ____________
    1. “Even as He saith: “None knoweth the meaning thereof except God and them that are well-grounded in knowledge.” 15* ”*15 Qur’án 3:7. [ Back To Reference]
    2. Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41
    3. “Even as thou dost witness how the people of the Qur’án, like unto the people of old, have allowed the words “Seal of the Prophets” to veil their eyes. And yet, they themselves testify to this verse: “None knoweth the interpretation thereof but God and they that are well-grounded in knowledge.” 13 *And when He Who is well-grounded in all knowledge, He Who is the Mother, the Soul, the Secret, and the Essence thereof, revealeth that which is the least contrary to their desire, they bitterly oppose Him and shamelessly deny Him.”
    4. 13 Qur’án 3:7. [ Back To Reference]
    5. Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 201-220
    It may please be noted that the verse quoted is the same but Shoghi Effendi, though followed Rodwell’s translation of Quran, yet he changed the wording of the Verse of Quran to suit his own whatever purpose.
    Literal
    (Word by Word) He (is) the One Who revealed to you the Book, of it (are) Verses absolutely clear - they (are) the foundation (of) the Book, and others (are) allegorical. Then as for those in their hearts (is) perversity - [so] they follow what (is) allegorical of it, seeking [the] discord and seeking its interpretation. And none knows its interpretation except Allah. And those firm in [the] knowledge, they say, "We believe in it. All (is) from near our Lord." And not will take heed except those people of intelligence
    Arabic[​IMG] هُوَ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ [​IMG]
    Transliteration[​IMG] Huwa allathee anzala AAalayka alkitaba minhu ayatun muhkamatun hunna ommu alkitabi waokharu mutashabihatun faamma allatheena fee quloobihim zayghun fayattabiAAoona matashabaha minhu ibtighaa alfitnati waibtighaa ta/weelihi wama yaAAlamu ta/weelahu illa Allahu waalrrasikhoona fee alAAilmi yaqooloona amanna bihi kullun min AAindi rabbina wamayaththakkaru illa oloo al-albabi
    Literal

    (Word by Word) He (is) the One Who revealed to you the Book, of it (are) Verses absolutely clear - they (are) the foundation (of) the Book, and others (are) allegorical. Then as for those in their hearts (is) perversity - [so] they follow what (is) allegorical of it, seeking [the] discord and seeking its interpretation. And none knows its interpretation except Allah. And those firm in [the] knowledge, they say, "We believe in it. All (is) from near our Lord." And not will take heed except those people of intelligence.

    Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works
    John Medows Rodwell[​IMG] He it is who hath sent down to thee "the Book." Some of its signs are of themselves perspicuous; - these are the basis of the Book - and others are figurative. But they whose hearts are given to err, follow its figures, craving discord, craving an interpretation; yet none knoweth its interpretation but God. And the stable in knowledge say, "We believe in it: it is all from our Lord." But none will bear this in mind, save men endued with understanding. [​IMG] (Please mark the full-stop colored in magenta-paarsurrey.)
    N J Dawood (2014) It is He who has revealed to you the Book. Some of its verses are precise in meaning ― they are the foundation of the Book ― and others ambiguous. Those whose hearts are infected with disbelief observe the ambiguous part, so as to create dissension by seeking to explain it. But no one knows its meaning except God. Those who are well-grounded in knowledge say: ‘We believe in it: it is all from our Lord. Yet none remembers but those that are of good sense possessed.
    al-Imran 3:7
     
    #1 paarsurrey, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
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  2. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I grew up with Christianity, not Islam @paarsurrey . The Baha'i worldview makes more sense to me in comparison to what I hear from Muslims. Some examples:

    1/ Muslim's believe the Gospel the Christians have in their possession is corrupted and not the true Gospel. The Baha'is reject this belief.

    2/ Muslims deny Christ's crucifixion, His Sonship and Divinity. The Baha'is do not. Further we have a plausible narrative that reconciles these percieved contradictions betwen the Gospels and Quran.

    3/ Muslims believe Muhammad was the last prophet. The Baha'is don't.

    I agree with Baha'u'llah when He says none has the true authority to interpret the Quran except God Himself. I do not believe the contradictory and self-proclamed authority of some Muslim leaders.
     
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  3. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Was Bahaullah a well-grounded in knowledge people of Quran?

    Further to my post #1 above and the translation of Rodwell at the end of the post:

    "God. And"

    The full stop signifies that only G-d knows the meaning and He has explained it in the context verses and or also elsewhere in Quran. Till the reader/believer ponders/concentrates/reaches on/to those places, it is sufficient to believe tentatively that its correct meaning is there from G-d; and such people who exercise these functions frequently could become or termed as well-grounded in Quran.

    Regards
     
  4. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I already have showed you that Shoghi Effendi did not change the verse of the Quran but it is a SHIAH translation. I even gave you the source of the Shiah translation but I shall include it here again as it supports his translation 100%.

    sure 3;7

    But no one knows its interpretation except Allah and those firmly grounded in knowledge;

    http://www.duas.org/pdfs/QuranTranslation_Ali Quri.pdf

    Here is the link once again to the Shiah translation of the Quran I previously posted to you. Just look up a keyword or 3:7 and you will find it is NOT Shoghi Effendi"s translation but an authentic Shiah translation. The reason it differs is because the Shiahs believe that the Imams were also qualified to interpret the Book and They did so that passage was not confined to God only according to the Shiahs. Baha'u'llah as a Manifestation of God has unchallenged full authority from God to interpret the Quran according to Baha'i belief. .

    There is reference in the Quran I believe to Baha'u'llah and Baghdad in this passage of the Quran and His Path as the Straight Path. This is more than sufficient proof for the fair minded.

    10.25. And God invites to the Abode of Peace (where they will enjoy perfect bliss, peace, and safety) and He guides whomever He wills to a Straight Path.

    The Abode of Peace

    المسالك::The city of Baghdad; its description by Ibn Jubair
     
    #4 loverofhumanity, Apr 17, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
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  5. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    I think this is what it boils down to, the orientalist Rodwell was trying to understand the Sunni interpretation of the Quran, and thus translated it accordingly. Shoghi Effendi has clearly favoured the Shia interpretation in this instance.
     
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  6. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "I agree with Baha'u'llah when He says none has the true authority to interpret the Quran except God Himself."

    Please quote from Bahaullah where he said those words in clear terms:
    1. in original language the book was written if possible,
    2. not a collection of his quotes compiled from his works, to know the exact context of his statement.
    3. Of course then the translation could be given for everybody's understanding.
    Regards
     
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  7. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    adrian009 said:
    I grew up with Christianity, not Islam @paarsurrey . The Baha'i worldview makes more sense to me in comparison to what I hear from Muslims. Some examples:

    1/ Muslim's believe the Gospel the Christians have in their possession is corrupted and not the true Gospel. The Baha'is reject this belief.

    2/ Muslims deny Christ's crucifixion, His Sonship and Divinity. The Baha'is do not. Further we have a plausible narrative that reconciles these percieved contradictions betwen the Gospels and Quran.

    3/ Muslims believe Muhammad was the last prophet. The Baha'is don't.

    I agree with Baha'u'llah when He says none has the true authority to interpret the Quran except God Himself. I do not believe the contradictory and self-proclamed authority of some Muslim leaders.
    Well, perhaps one must have had only an impression that Bahaullah said such clear words. Right, please?
    Please ponder over these two verses of Quran:
    1. AYAH al-Imran 3:7
    Arabic[​IMG] هُوَ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ
    Literal
    (Word by Word) He (is) the One Who revealed to you the Book, of it (are) Verses absolutely clear - they (are) the foundation (of) the Book, and others (are) allegorical. Then as for those in their hearts (is) perversity - [so] they follow what (is) allegorical of it, seeking [the] discord and seeking its interpretation. And none knows its interpretation except Allah. And those firm in [the] knowledge, they say, "We believe in it. All (is) from near our Lord." And not will take heed except those people of intelligence.

    John Medows Rodwell[​IMG] He it is who hath sent down to thee "the Book." Some of its signs are of themselves perspicuous; - these are the basis of the Book - and others are figurative. But they whose hearts are given to err, follow its figures, craving discord, craving an interpretation; yet none knoweth its interpretation but God. And the stable in knowledge say, "We believe in it: it is all from our Lord." But none will bear this in mind, save men endued with understanding. [​IMG]

    N J Dawood (2014)* It is He who has revealed to you the Book. Some of its verses are precise in meaning ― they are the foundation of the Book ― and others ambiguous. Those whose hearts are infected with disbelief observe the ambiguous part, so as to create dissension by seeking to explain it. But no one knows its meaning except God. Those who are well-grounded in knowledge say: ‘We believe in it: it is all from our Lord. Yet none remembers but those that are of good sense possessed.
    al-Imran 3:7
    * A.Jew

    2.AYAH an-Nisa` 4:162
    Arabic[​IMG] لَّٰكِنِ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ مِنْهُمْ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنزِلَ مِن قَبْلِكَ وَالْمُقِيمِينَ الصَّلَاةَ وَالْمُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ أُولَٰئِكَ سَنُؤْتِيهِمْ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا
    Literal
    (Word by Word) But the ones who are firm in the knowledge among them and the believers believe in what (is) revealed to you and what was revealed before you. And the ones who establish the prayer and the ones who give the zakah and the ones who believe in Allah and the Day the Last - those, We will give them a great reward.
    John Medows Rodwell[​IMG] But their men of solid knowledge, and the believers who believe in that which hath been sent down to thee, and in what hath been sent down before thee, and who observe prayer, and pay the alms of obligation, and believe in God and the latter day, - these! we will give them a great reward. [​IMG]
    N J Dawood (2014) But those of them that are well grounded in knowledge, and the believers who believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you; who attend to their prayers and render the alms levy and believe in God and the Last Day ― on these We shall bestow a rich recompense.
    an-Nisa` 4:162

    There is no need to go out of Quran for meaning of Quran to tradition (Shia and or Sunni or whatever), if these verses and their verses in the context are pondered over, one gets clear that the "well-grounded people" are those who get guidance/knowledge from within the whole of the book- Quran, not just a part/verse of it. And it is reasonable. Right, please?

    Perhaps while writing/dictating Iqan, Bahaulllah was in a hurry and as I understand most of the time, he hastened to Shia tradition, as he was groomed into it and naturally knew little of Sunni tradition. Or perhaps it suited his purpose.He has his limitations, of course. Never-mind, his followers should not be in a hurry, there are some/many of them here in the forum, they are welcome to prove their point of view from within the Quran. Right, please?

    Regards​
     
    #7 paarsurrey, Apr 18, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
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  8. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    It is in Iqan. The Book you have been reading.
     
  9. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Which one of these one means?:

    237 And yet, they themselves testify to this verse: “None knoweth the interpretation thereof but God and they that are well-grounded in knowledge.” 13

    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 201-220

    16 Even as He saith: “None knoweth the meaning thereof except God and them that are well-grounded in knowledge.” 15 And yet, they have sought the interpretation of the Book from those that are wrapt in veils, and have refused to seek enlightenment from the fountain-head of knowledge.

    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

    199 Those words uttered by the Luminaries of Truth must needs be pondered, and should their 182 significance be not grasped, enlightenment should be sought from the Trustees of the depositories of Knowledge, that these may expound their meaning, and unravel their mystery. For it behooveth no man to interpret the holy words according to his own imperfect understanding, nor, having found them to be contrary to his inclination and desires, to reject and repudiate their truth. For such, today, is the manner of the divines and doctors of the age, who occupy the seats of knowledge and learning, and who have named ignorance knowledge, and called oppression justice.

    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 161-200

    Well, the above are not exactly as mentioned by our friend @adrian009 , "none has the true authority to interpret the Quran except God Himself."

    Maybe he had something other than these in his mind, please.

    Regards
     
  10. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, all those you quoted.
     
  11. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    While we wait, what exactly was in the mind of our friend @adrian009 ?

    The references I quoted in post #9 do not given any unequivocal authority to Bahaullah to interpret verses of Quran going outside from the Quran. After-all Bahaullah was not a god, he was just a human being with all the limitations the human beings have. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  12. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Was Bahaullah a well-grounded in knowledge people of Quran?

    Bahaullah was not "well grounded" in knowledge of Quran. The Quranic verses Bahaullah himself quoted, round 150 verses, of Quran in Iqan make it clear that he had only a shallow knowledge of Quran.

    Regards
     
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