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Featured Was Bahaullah a "Bahai", please?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    We, verily, believe in Him Who, in the person of the Báb, hath been sent down by the Will of the one true God, the King of Kings, the All-Praised. (Baha’u’llah)
     
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  2. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Tony isn’t this encouraging - so you’re an ant?

    ‘Should a tiny ant’, the Báb, wishing to stress the limitless potentialities latent in His Dispensation, characteristically affirms, ‘desire in this day to be possessed of such power as to be able to unravel the abstrusest and most bewildering passages of the Qur’án, its wish will no doubt be fulfilled, inasmuch as the mystery of eternal might vibrates within the innermost being of all created things.’ ‘If so helpless a creature,’ is ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s comment on so startling an affirmation, ‘can be endowed with so subtle a capacity, how much more efficacious must be the power released through the liberal effusions of the grace of Bahá’u’lláh!’
     
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  3. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Its would be a great bounty and honor to be granted the station of such an ant ;):D But really, I am happy to stay lower than the dust on the Threshold of Baha'u'llah.

    I am far too aware of what self can do to ones own soul and I scare my own self.:)

    What a great day we live in :)

    :hugehug:

    Regards Tony
     
  4. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    I am an advaitist Hindu pagan and a strong atheist.
    Mirza Ghulam Ahmad brought the latest instructions from God. Bahais should accept him as the Mahdi. They are disobeying God's word by not doing so. Bahaullah claimed his mission in 1853, Mirza Saheb proclaimed his mission in 1886.
    I understand Bahaullah's God, the maiden and Bahaullah himself very well. Such crude stories will not have any effect on a hardened atheist.
    We have had two recent examples of that. One in New Zealand and the other in Sri Lanka. Like all other so called prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis in history, your God's attempt and that of his manifestation is abortive.
     
    #64 Aupmanyav, Apr 24, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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  5. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    If Islam is defined as Muhammadanism, then Baha'u'llah left it when He became a follower of the Bab, however if Islam is defined as belief in and submission to God, it is clear that Baha'u'llah never left this belief His whole life. In any case whilst the Bab was praying the Salat prescribed by Muhammad Baha'u'llah was also praying the Salat prescribed by Muhammad, Baha'u'llah did not announce that God was changing these till much later, even after the Iqan period according to my knowledge.
     
  6. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    And both those made the western press because they were either in the west, or westerners were affected. Meanwhole, much of the world's problems are ignored. Famine and hunger crisis | Oxfam International
     
  7. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "The Bāb was a Twelver Shī'ah through and through, and he and his followers did not see themselves as in opposition to Islam; they saw themselves as the true Muslims." Unquote

    Yes, I agree with one here, please.

    Regards
     
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  8. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "till much later, even after the Iqan period according"Unquote

    When did it happen exactly. Please let us know. Right, please?

    We Muslims rarely attribute ourselves as "Muhammadanism", and why should we do it when we were named as "Muslim" and our religion as "Islam" by G-d himself?:

    AYAH al-Imran 3:19
    Arabic[​IMG] إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِندَ اللَّهِ الْإِسْلَامُ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ إِلَّا مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَهُمُ الْعِلْمُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ سَرِيعُ الْحِسَابِ [​IMG]
    Transliteration[​IMG] Inna alddeena AAinda Allahi al-islamu wama ikhtalafa allatheena ootoo alkitaba illa min baAAdi ma jaahumu alAAilmu baghyan baynahum waman yakfur bi-ayati Allahi fa-inna Allaha sareeAAu alhisabi
    Literal
    (Word by Word) Indeed, the religion near Allah (is) submission/Islam. And not differed those who were given the Book except from after [what] came to them [the] knowledge out of envy among them. And whoever disbelieves in (the) Verses (of) Allah, then indeed, Allah (is) swift (in taking) account.
    Sher Ali[​IMG] Surely the true religion with ALLAH is Islam. And those who were given the Book did not disagree but, after knowledge had come to them, out of mutual envy. And whoso denies the Signs of ALLAH, then surely ALLAH is quick at reckoning.
    al-Imran 3:19
    AYAH al-Hajj 22:78
    Arabic[​IMG] وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ مِّلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِن قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ [​IMG]
    Transliteration[​IMG] Wajahidoo fee Allahi haqqa jihadihi huwa ijtabakum wama jaAAala AAalaykum fee alddeeni min harajin millata abeekum ibraheema huwa sammakumu almuslimeena min qablu wafee hathaliyakoona alrrasoolu shaheedan AAalaykum watakoonoo shuhadaa AAala alnnasi faaqeemoo alssalata waatoo alzzakata waiAAtasimoo biAllahi huwa mawlakum faniAAma almawla waniAAma alnnaseeru
    Literal
    (Word by Word) And strive for Allah (with the) striving due (to) H He (has) chosen you and not placed upon you in the religion any difficulty. (The) religion (of) your father Ibrahim. He named you those-who-submit/Muslims before and in this, that may be the Messenger a witness over you and you may be witnesses on the mankind. So establish the prayer and give zakah and hold fast to Allah. He (is) your Protector - so an Excellent [the] Protector and an Excellent [the] Helper.
    Sher Ali[​IMG] And strive in the cause of ALLAH as it behoves you to strive for it. HE has chosen you and has laid no hardship upon you in the matter of religion; so follow the faith of your father Abraham; HE has named you Muslims both before and in this Book, so that the Messenger may be a witness over you, and you may be witnesses over mankind. Therefore observe Prayer and pay the Zakaat, and hold fast to ALLAH. HE is your Protector and an Excellent Protector and an Excellent Helper !
    al-Hajj 22:78

    Right, please?

    Bahaullah was unfortunate to leave Quran/Islam/Muhammad if he left Islam even after the end of his Post-Iqan period. It is height of fallibility on the part of Bahaullah, greatest of his mistakes, rather sinful, if he would have realized from Quran but Bahaullah's understanding of Quran was somewhat if not more or most, shallow. After-all he was a human being, I understand, and to err is human. Human being are to be loved and not hated, of course.

    Regards
     
    #68 paarsurrey, Apr 24, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  9. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Question: Muhammad did not practice nor instruct his followers to observe the Salat, Obligatory prayers of the Jewish faith. Does that negate Muhammad's revelation, because Muhammad did not follow the Obligatory prayers of the Jews.
     
  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Did Muhammad leave Judaism? Since he changed the obligatory prayers (Salat)?

    You have not responded to my explanation concerning names and titles of Jesus Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah.
     
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  11. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Thanks for rating my post as [​IMG] Friendly our friend @Tony Bristow-Stagg.
    Regards
     
  12. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    First of all Bahaullah should stand on its own, he claimed to be Sun, he should not try to stand on the shoulders of Judaism. Right, please?

    Secondly Muhammad never was a Jew . If yes, please quote his claim from Quran in this connection. Right, please?

    Thirdly it is off-topic, please. Right, please?,but never-mind, we are in a friendly mode.

    Regards
     
  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Friend @shunyadragon ! It is amply answered in my post #72 . If it is not clear to one, please, feel free for another answer from me. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  14. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Friend @shunyadragon ! It is amply answered in my post #72 . If it is not clear to one, please, feel free for another answer from me. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  15. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Do you deny that Muhammad used to pray with the Jews facing Jerusalem before the changing of the Quiblah?
     
  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Baha'u'llah is the mirror that reflects the Sun. Muhammad was a mirror that reflected the Sun, as was Christ and all the Messengers.

    All the same Sun. They all stand by their Message given from Allah.

    History has not really recorded what Muhammad practiced before the age of 40, this is one thought;

    "There was a small group of monotheists present in Arabia on the eve of the rise of Islam. Its members did not worship idols, and they were the followers of the Prophet Abraham. The members of the families of Muhammad, the future prophet, and Ali ibn Abi Talib, the future caliph, and most members of their clan – the Banu Hashim – belonged to this group."

    Most likely in tune with being a practicing Jew.

    Proving a Messenger is of God, is also proving a founder of a Faith and as such, they are the first to practice that Faith.

    Muhammad to me would be the first Muslim and will be the last Muslim. That to me also means Muhammad is the first of all Mesengers and will be the last of all Messengers. Thus I can say Muhammad was a follower of all Messengers.

    Regards Tony
     
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  17. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Bab was a Twelver Shia-Muslim all through his life as I understand from our friend @Komori in post #52 above , and Bab might have made some mistakes in understanding Islam, but that is just another topic. After-all he was just a human being and fallible. But don't overburden Bab with the errors, mistakes. blunders and
    fallibilities of Bahaullah:
    AYAH Fatir 35:18
    Literal
    (Word by Word) And not will bear bearer of burdens burden (of) another. And if calls a heavily laden to (carry) its load, not will be carried of it anything even if he be near of kin. Only you can warn those who fear their Lord - unseen and establish the prayer. And whoever purifies himself, then only he purifies for his own self. And to Allah (is) the destination.
    Sher Ali[​IMG] And no burdened soul can bear the burden of another; and if a heavily laden soul call another to bear its load, naught of it shall be carried by the other, even though he be a kinsman. Thou canst warn only those who fear their Lord in secret and observe Prayer, And whoso purifies himself, purifies himself only to his own good; and to ALLAH shall be the return.
    Fatir 35:18

    Sorry to the friends who follow Bahaullah , and sorry for Bahaullah as well, please. Alas! Bahaullah should have committed his mistakes within Islam as did Bab.

    Regards
     
  18. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Muhammad only faced towards Jerusalem, as a friendly gesture, cause he had great regards of many prophets/messengers buried there from the string of Isaac to link with Abraham-the father of prophets/messengers of God. But Muhammad himself was from the string of Ishmael, the elder son of Abraham. Muhammad never adopted the formal style of Jewish Prayer/Salat.
    One is grossly mistaken in this connection, pleas. And one shall have to quote from Quran about Muhammad in support of one's view-point, please. Bahaullah or Abdul Baha or Shoghi Effendi and or UHJ might have given some wrong information in the matter, I am not aware of, please, never themselves having a firm understanding of Islam/Quran/Muhammad, and beating about the bush sometimes or most of the time, and not from G-d. Right, please?
    My apologies for this straight talk . Peace, please!

    Regards
     
    #78 paarsurrey, Apr 24, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  19. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Jesus was a follower of Moses and his teachings, and in this sense he was a Jew or a follower of Judaism, he remained as such throughout his life, though Judaism people of that time never supported him, and Paul a Jew also , was a deadly enemy of Jesus' and his followers . When Jesus migrated from Judea, and went out of it and the Roman rule, Paul could do nothing to quench his revenge from Jesus. Paul made a new plan and in the name of Jesus invented a new religion based on Pagan-Model and named it "Christianity" while it was another form of Paganism and nothing more thane that, and thus the wolf in sheep's clothing mislead the sheep, in the absence of the Shepard.
    So, why should Jesus have to renounce Judaism, he never started a new religion. It is Paul/Church and their associates who founded "Christianity" unauthorized from Jesus. Jesus was never a Christian. Right, please?
    Sorry my Christian friends, but it is what it is, nevertheless be firm on your faith with with reasons or without, it is a birth-right of the humans.

    Regards
     
  20. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    142. The fools among the people will say: "What hath turned them from the Qiblah to which they were used?" Say: to Allah belong both East and West; He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.

    143. Thus have We made of you an Ummah justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qiblah to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (from the faith). Indeed it was (a change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.

    144. We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens; now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction.
    (The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali translation), Surah 2:142-144)

    Notice that the people said when Muhammad turned mid-prayer from facing Jerusalem, "What hath turned them from the Qiblah to which they were used?" They were used to facing Jerusalem. Of course this is a historical fact independant of the Quran.

    From Qibla - Wikipedia

    According to the traditional Muslim view, the Qiblah in the Islamic prophet Muhammad's time was originally the Noble Sanctuary in the city of Jerusalem, similar to Judaism.[1][4] This Qiblah was used for over 13 years, from 610 CE until 623 CE. Seventeen months after Muhammad's 622 CE arrival in Medina – the date is given as 11 February 624 – the Qiblah became oriented towards the Kaaba in Mecca.[5][6] According to traditional accounts from Muhammad's companions, the change happened very suddenly during the noon prayer in Medina, in a mosque now known as Masjid al-Qiblaṫayn (Arabic: مَـسْـجِـد الْـقِـبْـلَـتَـيْـن‎, "Mosque of the Two Qiblahs").[6] Muhammad was leading the prayer when he received revelations from God instructing him to take the Kaaba as the Qiblah (literally, "Turn then Thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque.").[6][7] According to the traditional accounts contained in the hadith and sira, Muhammad, who had been facing Jerusalem, upon receiving this revelation, immediately turned around to face Mecca, and those praying behind him also did so.[6]

    1 Hartsock, Ralph (2014-08-27). "The temple of Jerusalem: past, present, and future". Jewish Culture and History. 16 (2): 199–201. doi:10.1080/1462169X.2014.953832.
    4 Mustafa Abu Sway, The Holy Land, Jerusalem and Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Qur’an, Sunnah and other Islamic Literary Source (PDF), Central Conference of American Rabbis, archived from the original (PDF) on 2011-07-28
    5 In the Lands of the Prophet, Time-Life, p. 29
    6 William Montgomery Watt (7 February 1974). Muhammad: prophet and statesman. Oxford University Press. pp. 112–113. ISBN 978-0-19-881078-0. Retrieved 29 December 2011.
    7 Sura 2 (Al-Baqara), ayah 144, Quran 2:144
     
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