Walking Apes

[Ceridwen018]

TEL AVIV, Israel -- Natasha, a 5-year-old black macaque walks at the Safari Park near Tel Aviv. The young monkey began recently walking exclusively on her hind legs after a stomach ailment nearly killed her, zookeepers said. (07/20/04 AP photo)

Pretty cool!

 

[Pah]

Now, if she could just have some babies and pass that along

 

[Druidus]

lol Pah, are you serious?

This is the result of a disease, not an evolutionary adaptation. It won't be passed on, unless the stomach ailment is genetic.

However, bonobos have been known to walk upright in the wild.

 

[Pah]

lol Pah, are you serious?

This is the result of a disease, not an evolutionary adaptation. It won't be passed on, unless the stomach ailment is genetic.

However, bonobos have been known to walk upright in the wild.

Yeah, it was a bit of wishful thinking

But -

A zoo veterinarian says he's not sure why she has altered her behaviour, speculating that the illness could have caused brain damage.

Other than walking upright, the vet says Natasha's behaviour has returned to normal. http://www.cbc.ca/story/science/national/2004/07/21/monkey_israel040721.html

 

[Pah]

Answer in Genesis is not impressed -

So why does 5-year-old Natasha the macaque now walk upright, as if ‘aping’ humans?1 The answer is really quite simple. Her change in behaviour is almost certainly the result of brain damage. Natasha slipped into a critical condition following a viral infection, a time of intensive care during which she ‘could hardly breathe and her heart was not functioning properly’. Lowered oxygenation to the brain would likely have knocked off some of the brain cells. It would appear that the pathways controlling usual walking behaviour have been destroyed, so that the only way she ‘knows’ how to walk is the ‘unusual’ way.

Nothing new has been added to this monkey’s repertoire of behaviour; macaques have always been able to do this, just as humans can on occasions get around on all fours. And of course it has nothing to do with any evolutionary ‘advance’. An analogy would be a brain-damaged human who had lost the ability to walk upright, and could subsequently only crawl around on all fours.

This all seems so obvious, why bother even mentioning it? The reason is that we are all subject to continual, often unintentional/incidental brainwashing because of the way our culture ‘assumes’ the truth of evolution. So headlines about missing links (even if halfway tongue-in-cheek) and even a mention about ‘walking apes’ tends to subtly reinforce the ape-to-human evolution myth.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0823walking.asp

So maybe, just maybe, the new walking behavior just might mean something

 

[Quoth The Raven]

Answer in Genesis is not impressed -
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0823walking.asp

So maybe, just maybe, the new walking behavior just might mean something

Stop it Pah, you're turning countless minds against the gospel of Christ with talk like that.:tsk:
I wonder how it's affecting her back, seeing as it's not something she'd normally do as a long term thing.

 

[Pah]

Stop it Pah, you're turning countless minds against the gospel of Christ with talk like that.:tsk:
I wonder how it's affecting her back, seeing as it's not something she'd normally do as a long term thing.

Is that the minds of those who don't count - or a host unnumbered?

I would guess her back is being strengthened which would increase bone density on the bones connected.

 

[scitsofreaky]

I would guess her back is being strengthened which would increase bone density on the bones connected

I would think that it would be bad for her back, putting strain on it that she isn't used to.

 

[Ceridwen018]

lol Pah, are you serious?

This is the result of a disease, not an evolutionary adaptation. It won't be passed on, unless the stomach ailment is genetic.

However, bonobos have been known to walk upright in the wild.

Ah, but you are wrong, Druidus. Physical characteristics, such as how one walks, are only genetic as far as how the shape of one's body allows them to move. Obviously, the conformtation of Natasha allows her to walk upright.

Natasha most certainly CAN pass on the trait of walking upright to her offspring--not through nature, but nurture. Young of any species look to their parents to teach them how to act, and Natasha's young will mimic her upright walking. This copy-cat effect can even be seen in humans. How many times have you met your friends' parents and thought, "Wow, she laughs just like her mom!", or, "Man, his dad makes that weird expression when he concentrates--that must be where he got it from!" Likewise, how we walk can also be attributed to how we learned, just as much as how the shape of our bodies leads us to walk.

So what would this theoretically mean for the future? Well, assessing the problem of back pain, I would first like to point out that humans have infinitely more back problems than any ape species. All of that aside, this would be where natural selection would come into play. Those with strong enough backs to handle upright walking would survive, and the rest would either die out or revert to the old ways. Eventually, it is easy to see how the two variations would split from each other, and eventually become two different species.

Yes, the reason for why Natasha walks the way that she does is due to a freak accident at best, but sometimes that's all it takes.

 

[Sunstone]

It is obvious to me that no freak accident is involved in Natasha's walking. Satan created the so called freak accident of her illness in order to make her walk and thus delude naive people into believing that there might be some substance to evolutionary theory. It's all very obvious once you look at it in the right way.

 

[martha]

I wonder what the other macaque's at the zoo are think about her? Is she being treated differently by them? Do they look at her as superior to them or just a little freakish? Or are they saying amongst themselves, " Oh boy, there she goes again, showing off!" " She thinks she's all that and a bag of chimps!" er I mean chips.

 

[michel]

It is obvious to me that no freak accident is involved in Natasha's walking. Satan created the so called freak accident of her illness in order to make her walk and thus delude naive people into believing that there might be some substance to evolutionary theory. It's all very obvious once you look at it in the right way.

Why, yes, of course *Thinks* Where's the RFemmergency syringe full of tranquiliser* 'Er, don't worry Sunstone, be with you in a minute........."
-Aside- to the others "You guys keep Sunstone busy.....Take his mind of things......":jiggy:

 

[Sunstone]

Why, yes, of course *Thinks* Where's the RFemmergency syringe full of tranquiliser* 'Er, don't worry Sunstone, be with you in a minute........."
-Aside- to the others "You guys keep Sunstone busy.....Take his mind of things......":jiggy:

No really, Michel, it's Satan's doing! Can't you see? What's that syringe for!!?? Get it away from me! It's Satan's doing, I say! AWWIEEE!!

*Moments later* I feel sleepy...

 

[michel]

No really, Michel, it's Satan's doing! Can't you see? What's that syringe for!!?? Get it away from me! It's Satan's doing, I say! AWWIEEE!!

*Moments later* I feel sleepy...

O.K lads, now bring out the brain washing kit out - and make sure you paid that last invoice to Satan (otherwise he'll make a fuss again!!!)

 

[Fatmop]

I just lost all my money to Damien in a poker game. RATS!
To Ceridwen: I had never even considered nurture to be an aspect of evolution before. As much as I would like to believe it provides answers, it also raises questions:
Which animals exhibit mimicry of their parents?
How did the young develop such a trait?
Did you realize that mimicry is actually evidence FOR ID?????

 

[Quoth The Raven]

Is that the minds of those who don't count - or a host unnumbered?

I'm not sure...I lifted it from Answer in Genesis, so possibly those who don't count.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

It is obvious to me that no freak accident is involved in Natasha's walking. Satan created the so called freak accident of her illness in order to make her walk and thus delude naive people into believing that there might be some substance to evolutionary theory. It's all very obvious once you look at it in the right way.

Is it that look where you have your eyes squinched up and the tip of your tongue sticks out the corner of your mouth?

 

[Ceridwen018]

Excellent questions, Fatmop!

To Ceridwen: I had never even considered nurture to be an aspect of evolution before. As much as I would like to believe it provides answers, it also raises questions:

Nurture, although not as huge as 'regular' natural selection, can play a part in evolution. In fact, even some natural selection is based on behavior of animals istead of their genes, ability to survive, etc. For instance, some species are separated not because they cannot produce fertile offspring which can then go on to have fertile offspring of their own. In fact, some animals are perfectly capable of successfully mating with each other, as far as biology goes, but they never do because, for instance, they have different mating dances or calls. Due to their different behaviors, which are learned from their parents, they do not attract each other, and therefore never mate in the wild.

Which animals exhibit mimicry of their parents?

Any animal which is raised by its mother/parents after it is born/hatches will learn certain things by mimicking their parents and others of their kind. That is, after all, the main purpose for why they would stay with their parents besides protection. To offer some examples: A foal (baby horse) whos mother dies in childbirth and is therefore left as an orphan is thought of as "no good" to most horse people. This is because such horses are never properly taught how to behave by another horse. In such instances, breeders will put the foal with a goat to keep it company, (the horsie would still be too small to go out with the often hostile older horses). In such instances, the horse will develop goat-like characteristics such as putting their front feet up on the fences to stand on the fences, and altering their natural whinny to resemple a goat's bray. There are also stories of abandoned children who are raised in wolf-packs and grow to mimic wolves, etc.

The most obvious example of mimicry can be seen in how human babies respond to their parents. Babies mimic the way their parents walk, talk, eat, everything!

Most fish and amphibians obviously do not mimic their parents, because most are externally fertilized and left to hatch, and never meet their parents.

How did the young develop such a trait?

Young of any species, even humans, are born with certain instincts. Everyone has the inherent instinct for survival, etc. For instance, one does not have to teach a young child how to lie--they figure that idea out by themselves pretty quickly. Of course, staying out of trouble is different than surviving on many levels, but they follow along the same basic lines.

That said, everything that the offspring is NOT born with must be taught to them by way of mimicry. If a human baby is raised by wolves for instance, they will not spontaneously and individually learn to speak English and make facial and body movements appropriate to human communication. On the contrary, they will learn to use their voice to mimic wolf sounds, and they will learn the body language of a wolf.

Did you realize that mimicry is actually evidence FOR ID?????

I don't understand how this is so--could you please explain?

 

[Druidus]

Ah, but you are wrong, Druidus. Physical characteristics, such as how one walks, are only genetic as far as how the shape of one's body allows them to move. Obviously, the conformtation of Natasha allows her to walk upright.

Natasha most certainly CAN pass on the trait of walking upright to her offspring--not through nature, but nurture. Young of any species look to their parents to teach them how to act, and Natasha's young will mimic her upright walking. This copy-cat effect can even be seen in humans. How many times have you met your friends' parents and thought, "Wow, she laughs just like her mom!", or, "Man, his dad makes that weird expression when he concentrates--that must be where he got it from!" Likewise, how we walk can also be attributed to how we learned, just as much as how the shape of our bodies leads us to walk.

So what would this theoretically mean for the future? Well, assessing the problem of back pain, I would first like to point out that humans have infinitely more back problems than any ape species. All of that aside, this would be where natural selection would come into play. Those with strong enough backs to handle upright walking would survive, and the rest would either die out or revert to the old ways. Eventually, it is easy to see how the two variations would split from each other, and eventually become two different species.

Yes, the reason for why Natasha walks the way that she does is due to a freak accident at best, but sometimes that's all it takes.

Well, macaques already possess this ability, and use it sometimes to see over tall grass. This one in particular has nothing special.

I'm more interested in bonobos, often noted by zoologists as "the new walking ape". Much of there time is spent walking upright, likely due to the loss of trees in the areas they live in. Perhaps this will jumpstart another chapter in primate evolution.

 

[Halcyon]

Well, macaques already possess this ability, and use it sometimes to see over tall grass. This one in particular has nothing special.

I'm more interested in bonobos, often noted by zoologists as "the new walking ape". Much of there time is spent walking upright, likely due to the loss of trees in the areas they live in. Perhaps this will jumpstart another chapter in primate evolution.

Err, most monkeys and apes can walk upright - like druidus said they sometimes use it to get a better field of view when playing the lookout, they use it to reach fruit that would otherwise be unreachable and to gather fruit and leaves from low branches while remaining on the ground.
Sounds to me like she adapted her walking behaviour due to the pain caused by the stomach illness. But since these animals' natural gait is four legged, i'd suggest her spine is being compacted and the strain on her hindlegs will most likely cause them to become bowed and/or weakened. This isn't the start of Planet of the Apes, not quite yet anyway.