Vaccinations and Religious Exemptions

[tas8831]

For example the vaccines could encourage virus mutations to select for longer incubation periods or to replicate in people who don't notice the symptoms. As you point out the viruses are not being wiped out by vaccinations no matter what we do, and there are also new strains. That means they continue to evolve despite vaccinations, but we are not evolving as quickly as we could due to the vaccinations.

This is not at all how this works.
Viruses and bacteria - like all living things - accumulate mutations. The immune response to viruses and bacteria, however, have no effect whatsoever on their ultimate evolution. You are thinking of antibiotics, perhaps?

The point of vaccination is not necessarily to "wipe out" a particular pathogen (though this was pretty much done with smallpox).

Do you know what vaccines actually do?

 

[tas8831]

Vaccines are a controversial topic with much misinformation circulating and emotions charged on both sides of this argument. So what are the facts and who has them?

• The Facts:
  The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act has paid approximately $4 billion to families with vaccine injured children, and it's continuing to grow. The act protects pharmaceutical companies from being held accountable and just compensates victims.
  
  
• Reflect On:
  With all of the science, documented examples of scientific fraud and injury, why are vaccines still marketed as completely safe? There are multiple concerns to be addressed, so why are we told that "the science has spoken?" What's going on here?
  
  
  $4 Billion & Growing: U.S. Payouts for Vaccine Injuries & Deaths Keep Climbing

Hilarious how you accept, without question, the dopey, emotional, fact-averse ranting by anti-vaccine kooks yet dismiss actual science like evolution.


FACT: Vaccine injuries are largely a farce. The VAERS program allows anyone to claim ANYTHING is a vaccine injury - to include broken bones, etc. There was even a case where a person submitted a claim of vaccine injury in which he turned green and muscular - and VAERS LEFT THE CLAIM intact, contacted the person making it (who did so to Sokol the database) and actually left it up to him as to whether it should be removed!

People that look at the VAERS and the vaccine injury court should probably learn a bit more about why it was set up and how low the standard of evidence is.

We get it, you have been programmed to hate science.

I am still waiting for you to explain how bacteria 'make themselves immune.'



Bill Zedler on what people may report after vaccinations

In a July 2005 web post, Dr. James R. Laidler wrote: "The chief problem with the VAERS data is that reports can be entered by anyone and are not routinely verified. To demonstrate this, a few years ago I entered a report that an influenza vaccine had turned me into The Hulk. The report was accepted and entered into the database.

"Because the reported adverse event was so… unusual," Laidler wrote, "a representative of VAERS contacted me. After a discussion of the VAERS database and its limitations, they asked for my permission to delete the record, which I granted. If I had not agreed, the record would be there still, showing that any claim can become part of the database, no matter how outrageous or improbable."​

 

[ratiocinator]

As you point out the viruses are not being wiped out by vaccinations no matter what we do, and there are also new strains.

Smallpox was eradicated by a massive international search for outbreaks, backed up with a vaccination program, starting in 1967.​

-- Eradication of smallpox​

 

[Brickjectivity]

This is not at all how this works.
Viruses and bacteria - like all living things - accumulate mutations. The immune response to viruses and bacteria, however, have no effect whatsoever on their ultimate evolution. You are thinking of antibiotics, perhaps?

The point of vaccination is not necessarily to "wipe out" a particular pathogen (though this was pretty much done with smallpox).

Do you know what vaccines actually do?

Viruses and bacteria (like all living things) accumulate mutations, and those mutations which survive the selection process are passed on. Inoculations are not given to everyone on the planet, and so they are a type of selection, selection for any mutations that help viruses to hide from the selection process. Vaccines are not able to destroy the virus, so they are effectively strengthening the virus.

Smallpox was eradicated by a massive international search for outbreaks, backed up with a vaccination program, starting in 1967.​

-- Eradication of smallpox​

Smallpox did a very poor job of hiding, and its symptoms were extreme. Therefore it could be isolated and destroyed through that method. Contrarily cold viruses continue to thrive, because they can hide, because they are easily transmitted and are dangerous only to some people. A vaccine to treat a cold is not intended to wipe the virus out, so it selects for a virus that hides better -- I say this intuitively and don't have any studies to cite, but selection is one of the fundamental processes in evolution.

 

[tas8831]

Viruses and bacteria (like all living things) accumulate mutations, and those mutations which survive the selection process are passed on. Inoculations are not given to everyone on the planet, and so they are a type of selection, selection for any mutations that help viruses to hide from the selection process. Vaccines are not able to destroy the virus, so they are effectively strengthening the virus.

Vaccines are not meant to destroy anything, that is the problem. Vaccines stimulate an immune response, allowing the immune system to specifically identify a particular pathogen. There may be strains of a pathogen that have accumulated mutations such that the vaccine targets are no longer there (such as a particular protein on their surface), but vaccine action/immune response does not affect mutations.

Smallpox did a very poor job of hiding, and its symptoms were extreme. Therefore it could be isolated and destroyed through that method. Contrarily cold viruses continue to thrive, because they can hide, because they are easily transmitted and are dangerous only to some people.

More likely because there are hundreds of viruses that cause what we call 'a cold.'

A vaccine to treat a cold is not intended to wipe the virus out, so it selects for a virus that hides better -- I say this intuitively and don't have any studies to cite, but selection is one of the fundamental processes in evolution.

The selection part you mention is true, but vaccines do not operate as you imply, and pathogens do not respond to them in this fashion. In fact, pathogens do not respond to vaccines at all. Vaccines trigger an immune response, so pathogens 'respond' to our immune system.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Vaccines are not meant to destroy anything, that is the problem. Vaccines stimulate an immune response, allowing the immune system to specifically identify a particular pathogen. There may be strains of a pathogen that have accumulated mutations such that the vaccine targets are no longer there (such as a particular protein on their surface), but vaccine action/immune response does not affect mutations.


More likely because there are hundreds of viruses that cause what we call 'a cold.'

The selection part you mention is true, but vaccines do not operate as you imply, and pathogens do not respond to them in this fashion. In fact, pathogens do not respond to vaccines at all. Vaccines trigger an immune response, so pathogens 'respond' to our immune system.

Ok.

 

[Prestor John]

I'd like to see a discussion about vaccinations and exemptions, mostly the religious ones, but also exemptions on any grounds. I've placed this in the Science and Religion section, but remember that the overwhelming majority of religious people such as myself vaccinate.

The stakes are high. Measles is back, and every time there is measles, there are always some deaths. Same with the flu. Here in the Los Angeles area, believe it or not, we are actually having a typhus epidemic. Typhus is a disease that spreads where ever there is trash, because rats eat the trash and the fleas on the rats spread the disease. In other words it's a disease of pre-modern eras before cities had garbage pickups and vaccinations. Tthe shame on Los Angeles for its treatment of the homeless is fodder for another thread. But at any rate, the fleas have spread to places such as police offices and even city hall. Fleas that bite those that are infected and then spread the disease to others.

When people are not vaccinated they obviously put not only themselves at risk, and put all others who are not vaccinated at risk, but they put a small percentage of the vaccinated public at risk, because no vaccination is 100% effective. My daughter had all her vaccinations, including TDaP, and yet as an adult she still caught whooping cough (pertussis) and nearly died. In generations past, when nearly everyone was vaccinated, we had what was known as a herd protection, where those whose vaccinations had failed were still protected because no one was really getting the disease, but that has now ended because of the growing prevalence of anti-vaccinators.

So weigh in with your comments, pro and con.

I'm pretty extreme. I see this as a public health issue and a child neglect issue. I do not think there should be any exceptions for vaccines except allergies to the vaccines themselves. Those who don't want to vaccinate should be forced to 1. for the health of the community (their right to throw a punch ends where my face begins) and 2. for the general welfare of their kids. If they continue to refuse, they should be fined, a child welfare case opened, and their kids taken and vaccinated against their will. Yeap, I'm serious about this stuff. I have no patience with those who are too stupid to recognize paranoid conspiracy theories.

I read online an certain interchange. A woman who was anti-vaccination was asking what she could do to protect her children. The answers were harsh and to the point. One in particular was right on the mark. It said take your kids to the edge of the flat earth where the earth was fresher.

Slippery slope.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Slippery slope.

There's a slippery slope the other direction as well, and I believe we have crossed the line into what is clearly too far. People are sick and dying.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I support mandatory vaccination, because of the growing international problem of disease. As far as I know any religious objections to vaccinations is based on rather vague scriptural references.

The only valid exemption I could see is if someone is allergic or has a bad reaction to vaccines. Some vaccines are also dangerous to take. The flu vaccine for instance has mercury in it. The body over time cannot get rid of Mercury efficiently.

 

[shunyadragon]

The only valid exemption I could see is if someone is allergic or has a bad reaction to vaccines. Some vaccines are also dangerous to take. The flu vaccine for instance has mercury in it. The body over time cannot get rid of Mercury efficiently.

There is an option no of no mercury vaccinations in single dose forms, which can be requested.

The only allergic reaction I know of concerning eggs or gelatin, and I believe there are options. I may follow up on this.

 

[Prestor John]

There's a slippery slope the other direction as well, and I believe we have crossed the line into what is clearly too far. People are sick and dying.

What else do you believe the government should have authority to do to your children against your will?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What else do you believe the government should have authority to do to your children against your will?

I'm content to allow government intervention in the case of harm, either the harm of others, or the harm and/or neglect of the children.

 

[Sapiens]

What else do you believe the government should have authority to do to your children against your will?

Any time that an adult crosses the line into child neglect, abuse, or just plain stupidity requires that the society operate in the child's best interests.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Any time that an adult crosses the line into child neglect, abuse, or just plain stupidity requires that the society operate in the child's best interests.

Actually, parents are allowed to be stupid. Parents are stupid all the time. Part of being a parent is making stupid mistakes, especially with the first child or two. You have to allow people to be imperfect.

I remember when my brother first became a single dad and I used to help babysit to help him out. He said to me, "Everyone complains about how hard it is to get their kids to eat, but all you have to do is cook a bunch of noodles, and slather it in butter and some salt, and they'll eat it right up. " LOLOL We had a long sit down about nutrition .

 

[Prestor John]

I'm content to allow government intervention in the case of harm, either the harm of others, or the harm and/or neglect of the children.

Who gets to decide what is considered "harm" or "neglect"?

 

[Prestor John]

Any time that an adult crosses the line into child neglect, abuse, or just plain stupidity requires that the society operate in the child's best interests.

Who decides where that line is to be drawn?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Who gets to decide what is considered "harm" or "neglect"?

I think they are pretty objective terms.

 

[ecco]

Vaccines are a controversial topic with much misinformation circulating and emotions charged on both sides of this argument. So what are the facts and who has them?

• The Facts:
  The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act has paid approximately $4 billion to families with vaccine injured children, and it's continuing to grow. The act protects pharmaceutical companies from being held accountable and just compensates victims.

Once again we see your unabashed disdain for science.

Do you understand why the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act was created?

(my emphases)

History of Vaccine Safety History | Ensuring Safety | Vaccine Safety | CDC
During the mid-1970s, there was an increased focus on personal health and more people became concerned about vaccine safety. Several lawsuits were filed against vaccine manufacturers and healthcare providers by people who believed they had been injured by the diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus (DPT) vaccine. [4] Damages were awarded despite the lack of scientific evidence to support vaccine injury claims. [4] As a result of these decisions, liability and prices soared, and several vaccine manufacturers halted production. A vaccine shortage resulted and public health officials became concerned about the return of epidemic disease. To reduce liability and respond to public health concerns, Congress passed the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (NCVIA) in 1986.Do you know how much of that $4 Billion has been paid out to people for problems relating to MMR vaccines?
​

Guilt or innocence, and subsequent financials awards, in Civil suits, is often determined by lay people with no understanding of the science involved.
Guilt or innocence, and subsequent financials awards, in Civil suits, is often determined by lay people with a bias against Big Corporations and empathy toward the poor little person who was injured.

• Reflect On:
  With all of the science, documented examples of scientific fraud and injury, why are vaccines still marketed as completely safe? There are multiple concerns to be addressed, so why are we told that "the science has spoken?" What's going on here?
  

In regards to the MMR vaccine: YES, "the science has spoken" loudly and clearly.

The "link" between MMR and autism was first brought up by Andrew Wakefield

The MMR vaccine and autism: Sensation, refutation, retraction, and fraud
The final episode in the saga is the revelation that Wakefield et al.[1] were guilty of deliberate fraud (they picked and chose data that suited their case; they falsified facts).[9] The British Medical Journal has published a series of articles on the exposure of the fraud, which appears to have taken place for financial gain.​

• $4 Billion & Growing: U.S. Payouts for Vaccine Injuries & Deaths Keep Climbing

Now let's look at your source...COLLECTIVE EVOLUTION. They publish articles about...

Why Saturn’s Moon Iapetus Could Have Been Artificially Made By Extraterrestrials​

...and podcasts like...

#24 - How To Raise Your Vibration
#22 - How Do Outside Energies Affect Us?

​

This is not a source that most rational people would take seriously.

 

[ecco]

I plan to use Euthanasia before Dementia, I hope.

Only if you don't forget.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I'd like to see a discussion about vaccinations and exemptions, mostly the religious ones, but also exemptions on any grounds. I've placed this in the Science and Religion section, but remember that the overwhelming majority of religious people such as myself vaccinate.

The stakes are high. Measles is back, and every time there is measles, there are always some deaths. Same with the flu. Here in the Los Angeles area, believe it or not, we are actually having a typhus epidemic. Typhus is a disease that spreads where ever there is trash, because rats eat the trash and the fleas on the rats spread the disease. In other words it's a disease of pre-modern eras before cities had garbage pickups and vaccinations. Tthe shame on Los Angeles for its treatment of the homeless is fodder for another thread. But at any rate, the fleas have spread to places such as police offices and even city hall. Fleas that bite those that are infected and then spread the disease to others.

When people are not vaccinated they obviously put not only themselves at risk, and put all others who are not vaccinated at risk, but they put a small percentage of the vaccinated public at risk, because no vaccination is 100% effective. My daughter had all her vaccinations, including TDaP, and yet as an adult she still caught whooping cough (pertussis) and nearly died. In generations past, when nearly everyone was vaccinated, we had what was known as a herd protection, where those whose vaccinations had failed were still protected because no one was really getting the disease, but that has now ended because of the growing prevalence of anti-vaccinators.

So weigh in with your comments, pro and con.

I'm pretty extreme. I see this as a public health issue and a child neglect issue. I do not think there should be any exceptions for vaccines except allergies to the vaccines themselves. Those who don't want to vaccinate should be forced to 1. for the health of the community (their right to throw a punch ends where my face begins) and 2. for the general welfare of their kids. If they continue to refuse, they should be fined, a child welfare case opened, and their kids taken and vaccinated against their will. Yeap, I'm serious about this stuff. I have no patience with those who are too stupid to recognize paranoid conspiracy theories.

I read online an certain interchange. A woman who was anti-vaccination was asking what she could do to protect her children. The answers were harsh and to the point. One in particular was right on the mark. It said take your kids to the edge of the flat earth where the earth was fresher.

There ARE legitimate medical grounds for wanting vaccine exemptions. I can't think of any credible religious ones. Do anyone's religious texts mention vaccines at all?