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Vaccinations and Religious Exemptions

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Heh, you don't even need to do that. Some Counselor just has to "say" you are and it is into the TG machine for you. True story.
Respectfully, your experience doesn't seem to be representative, nor, in all honesty and the best will in the world, objectively related. I am sincerely sorry that your experience has been negative for you, personally, but it troubles me that you appear to be trying to attack a treatment based on what you yourself admit is not the experience of the majority of people treated form dysphoria.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Respectfully, your experience doesn't seem to be representative, nor, in all honesty and the best will in the world, objectively related. I am sincerely sorry that your experience has been negative for you, personally, but it troubles me that you appear to be trying to attack a treatment based on what you yourself admit is not the experience of the majority of people treated form dysphoria.

I believe that the Mental Health community is out of control and that has been confirmed in my conversations with a few providers that are not onboard with present treatment protocols. Frankly, some in the community are doing their best to cover their own asses to limit liability. I also do not believe that my own experience is isolated at all. So far, I am aware of more Female to Male transfolk detransitioning than Male to Female trans folk but there are some.

After a nervous breakdown, the Medical Providers illegally confined me. I had not had any previous Mental Health issues previously, and got off the heavy medication in 2008 after 3 years.

Two issues worry me, and that appears to be an elevated incidence of Autistic folk having GID, and the slowness that has been shown to correctly identify Cases of PTSD, and Anxiety as strongly contributing factors. In my case, If they had treated the PTSD first, the GID issue likely would have been resolved. I do not know what is happening presently, but the MH Community put me on such strong drugs in heavy doses that I do not think I was capable of making a legal decision.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
I believe that the Mental Health community is out of control and that has been confirmed in my conversations with a few providers that are not onboard with present treatment protocols. Frankly, some in the community are doing their best to cover their own asses to limit liability. I also do not believe that my own experience is isolated at all. So far, I am aware of more Female to Male transfolk detransitioning than Male to Female trans folk but there are some.

After a nervous breakdown, the Medical Providers illegally confined me. I had not had any previous Mental Health issues previously, and got off the heavy medication in 2008 after 3 years.

Two issues worry me, and that appears to be an elevated incidence of Autistic folk having GID, and the slowness that has been shown to correctly identify Cases of PTSD, and Anxiety as strongly contributing factors. In my case, If they had treated the PTSD first, the GID issue likely would have been resolved. I do not know what is happening presently, but the MH Community put me on such strong drugs in heavy doses that I do not think I was capable of making a legal decision.
As I have said, I am sorry your experience was negative. I mean that. But based on everything I have read and my interaction with both patients and professionals in the relevant fields, I stand by my earlier comment.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
If I'm not mistaken, you are in favor of the Government making decisions about whether or not a pregnant woman has the right to receive an abortion.

I do believe that the governing body should do all within their power to prevent murder.

We aren't talking about murder...

mur·der
Dictionary result for murder
/ˈmərdər/
noun
  1. 1.
    the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
...we are talking about abortion. A fetus is not a human being. You can look up the definitions yourself.

You are aware that over 25% of pregnancies abort spontaneously. That makes your God the leading all-time abortionist along with being the leading all-time murderer with His Big Flood.





I do believe that the governing body should do all within their power to prevent murder.
So, you are in favor of banning all guns.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
And you believe that all these decisions about how parents should raise their children should be up tot eh voters to decide and the government to enforce?

Do I think that representational democracy is the best form of government available? Yes. This is not to say that it is perfect, especially when everyone, including ignoramuses vote. But all in all, it is far better than the alternatives.

In the case of our own government, we elect government officials in the State who usually require vaccinations except in certain circumstances. Given the recent epidemics, they may remove those exceptions. We also have elected those in Washington who in response to our votes choose to appoint the CDC. The CDC has recommended vaccinations as the best way to avoid these illnesses and prevent epidemics. The CDC has also done the scientific research that has debunked the claims that vaccinations are harmful in general.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
A fetus is not a human being.
Just what do you think a fetus is???? A monkey? A whale? A slug? A mosquito?

The moment conception takes place, the being has all the chromosomes necessary to take it through all the stages of human life. That makes it a human being.

I don't know that I would call early abortions murder. But they are wrong, except in very needy circumstances. As the pregnancy goes along, the allowances for abortion become fewer and fewer. Having an elective abortion while in labor is infanticide.

Orthodox Jewish position on abortion (and the media's bias against it):
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Just what do you think a fetus is???? A monkey? A whale? A slug? A mosquito?

More accurately, it is a fetus. It is an as yet undeveloped human being. But it is not yet a person, which comes about when the brain is developed enough to have consciousness.

The moment conception takes place, the being has all the chromosomes necessary to take it through all the stages of human life. That makes it a human being.

I disagree. All the cells of your body have the same number of chromosomes, but that doens't make them fully human. It means they are partly human, but not fully so. The same is true of a fetus prior to the point where consciousness is possible.

I don't know that I would call early abortions murder. But they are wrong, except in very needy circumstances. As the pregnancy goes along, the allowances for abortion become fewer and fewer. Having an elective abortion while in labor is infanticide.

And I disagree again. Abortions are the woman *in whose body something is growing* denying the right of that thing to continue growing. Even if it *were* a person, that woman has an absolute right to have it removed from her body.

Now, if it is possible for the fetus to maintain life outside of the mother's body, there is an argument that steps should be taken to ensure that while removing it from the woman who no longer wants to carry it.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Just what do you think a fetus is???? A monkey? A whale? A slug? A mosquito?

The moment conception takes place, the being has all the chromosomes necessary to take it through all the stages of human life. That makes it a human being.

I don't know that I would call early abortions murder. But they are wrong, except in very needy circumstances. As the pregnancy goes along, the allowances for abortion become fewer and fewer. Having an elective abortion while in labor is infanticide.

Orthodox Jewish position on abortion (and the media's bias against it):
It's a human organism, not a human being. Human being implies personhood, which, to me, at least, implies at the very least, consciousness.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
More accurately, it is a fetus. It is an as yet undeveloped human being. But it is not yet a person, which comes about when the brain is developed enough to have consciousness.



I disagree. All the cells of your body have the same number of chromosomes, but that doens't make them fully human. It means they are partly human, but not fully so. The same is true of a fetus prior to the point where consciousness is possible.



And I disagree again. Abortions are the woman *in whose body something is growing* denying the right of that thing to continue growing. Even if it *were* a person, that woman has an absolute right to have it removed from her body.

Now, if it is possible for the fetus to maintain life outside of the mother's body, there is an argument that steps should be taken to ensure that while removing it from the woman who no longer wants to carry it.

Jeremiah 1:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Just what do you think a fetus is???? A monkey? A whale? A slug? A mosquito?


A fetus is a fetus. Something not yet born. It can be a fetus of a monkey or a whale. Slugs and mosquitos are slugs and mosquitos. It really isn't very complicated.

The moment conception takes place, the being has all the chromosomes necessary to take it through all the stages of human life. That makes it a human being.

No. That makes it an embryo. You really need to look up definitions instead of making them up as you go along.



I don't know that I would call early abortions murder.

You do know that you just contradicted yourself.








Well, that's another good reason to keep religion out of the legislative process. There is a Country where the laws are based on the Jewish religion. Perhaps the people complaining (above) should think about moving.


ETA: I just saw this post of yours:
Jeremiah 1:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

In this Country, we need to keep religion out of the legislative process. Otherwise, we might end up like Saudi Arabia. You wouldn't want that, would you?
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
I'd like to see a discussion about vaccinations and exemptions, mostly the religious ones, but also exemptions on any grounds. I've placed this in the Science and Religion section, but remember that the overwhelming majority of religious people such as myself vaccinate.

The stakes are high. Measles is back, and every time there is measles, there are always some deaths. Same with the flu. Here in the Los Angeles area, believe it or not, we are actually having a typhus epidemic. Typhus is a disease that spreads where ever there is trash, because rats eat the trash and the fleas on the rats spread the disease. In other words it's a disease of pre-modern eras before cities had garbage pickups and vaccinations. Tthe shame on Los Angeles for its treatment of the homeless is fodder for another thread. But at any rate, the fleas have spread to places such as police offices and even city hall. Fleas that bite those that are infected and then spread the disease to others.

When people are not vaccinated they obviously put not only themselves at risk, and put all others who are not vaccinated at risk, but they put a small percentage of the vaccinated public at risk, because no vaccination is 100% effective. My daughter had all her vaccinations, including TDaP, and yet as an adult she still caught whooping cough (pertussis) and nearly died. In generations past, when nearly everyone was vaccinated, we had what was known as a herd protection, where those whose vaccinations had failed were still protected because no one was really getting the disease, but that has now ended because of the growing prevalence of anti-vaccinators.

So weigh in with your comments, pro and con.

I'm pretty extreme. I see this as a public health issue and a child neglect issue. I do not think there should be any exceptions for vaccines except allergies to the vaccines themselves. Those who don't want to vaccinate should be forced to 1. for the health of the community (their right to throw a punch ends where my face begins) and 2. for the general welfare of their kids. If they continue to refuse, they should be fined, a child welfare case opened, and their kids taken and vaccinated against their will. Yeap, I'm serious about this stuff. I have no patience with those who are too stupid to recognize paranoid conspiracy theories.

I read online an certain interchange. A woman who was anti-vaccination was asking what she could do to protect her children. The answers were harsh and to the point. One in particular was right on the mark. It said take your kids to the edge of the flat earth where the earth was fresher.
We should be able to monitor peoples health with implants too. We can then know when someone is contagious or not.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
We aren't talking about murder...

mur·der
Dictionary result for murder
/ˈmərdər/
noun
  1. 1.
    the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
...we are talking about abortion.
There was a time in the U.S.A. where a slaveholder could kill his slave without it being considered murder.

Are you going to tell me that because it was legal that it wasn't murder if a man beat another man to death?

Should the race of the dead man matter when deciding if it was murder?

Should the stage of development of a man matter when deciding if it is murder?
A fetus is not a human being.
A human fetus passes every single test to determine what is or is not human.

Every. Single. One.
You can look up the definitions yourself.
You want me to rely on the books written by the people I disagree with?

How would you react if I claimed that we should rely solely on the Bible to decide these types of matters?
You are aware that over 25% of pregnancies abort spontaneously. That makes your God the leading all-time abortionist along with being the leading all-time murderer with His Big Flood.
You have evidence of this?

You have God's fingerprints on file?
So, you are in favor of banning all guns.
No, quite the opposite actually.

Having an armed populace is the first step toward preventing murder, because citizens can defend themselves.
Are you against all forms of trying to counsel/convert Gays back to being heterosexuals?
It is my opinion that no one becomes a homosexual until they willingly perform sexual acts with a member of the same sex.

Their journey to repentance is between them and God.

I would also encourage them to speak with their Priesthood leader for spiritual guidance, but that is their prerogative.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Do I think that representational democracy is the best form of government available? Yes. This is not to say that it is perfect, especially when everyone, including ignoramuses vote. But all in all, it is far better than the alternatives.

In the case of our own government, we elect government officials in the State who usually require vaccinations except in certain circumstances. Given the recent epidemics, they may remove those exceptions. We also have elected those in Washington who in response to our votes choose to appoint the CDC. The CDC has recommended vaccinations as the best way to avoid these illnesses and prevent epidemics. The CDC has also done the scientific research that has debunked the claims that vaccinations are harmful in general.
So, yes, you do believe that the voters (even the ignorant ones) should have a say in how a parent should raise their children.

What else should we put to a vote?

Should children be denied certain foods? Certain activities? Certain beliefs?

Anything considered by the masses to be "harmful"?

The voters should decide what is "minimal medical care"?

As I said from the start, its a slippery freakin' slope.

The kind of which that should never be entertained because people get a taste for that kind of power, that control, and it will lead to severe human rights violations.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Let's not forget that "milkmaid's complexion" was the natural result of inadvertent vaccination that protected them from smallpox.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Jeremiah 1:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Read what it actually says. if anything, it supports the idea that there is a time of ensoulment during pregnancy, before which the person is somewhere else. God is saying the He knows someone *before* they were in the belly. So, if the soul enters the fetus during the 8th month after conception, but existed prior to that, the verse makes perfect sense, doesn't it?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
There was a time in the U.S.A. where a slaveholder could kill his slave without it being considered murder.

Are you going to tell me that because it was legal that it wasn't murder if a man beat another man to death?

Should the race of the dead man matter when deciding if it was murder?
Slave owners, in this Country, cited your Bible as justification for owning beating, and in some circumstances, killing slaves. Justification for the laws approving slavery came from your Bible. Personally, I'm glad that secular based laws won out and ended slavery.



Should the stage of development of a man matter when deciding if it is murder?

A human fetus passes every single test to determine what is or is not human.

Every. Single. One.

You want me to rely on the books written by the people I disagree with?
Frankly, I don't care what books you rely on. You don't make laws. If you rely on stories in books written thousands of years ago, I guess your wife doesn't mind being kicked out of the house for a week every month.

How would you react if I claimed that we should rely solely on the Bible to decide these types of matters?

Fortunately, I don't have to. I live in a moderately secular Country. Unfortunately for you, there are no countries where all the laws are based on the Bible. However, I'd be willing to bet there are some cults that have local laws closer to the Bible.

You have evidence of this?
You have God's fingerprints on file?
Miscarriage - Wikipedia
Miscarriage is the most common complication of early pregnancy.[17] Among women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is roughly 10% to 20%, while rates among all fertilisation is around 30% to 50%​

I can't prove your god is causing these miscarriages. But, how would you account for it? Oh, heck. Let's just blame it on Original Sin.




Having an armed populace is the first step toward preventing murder, because citizens can defend themselves.

Uh huh. That pretty much parrots the NRA party line.

How Often Do People Use Guns In Self-Defense? latest data show that people use guns for self-defense only rarely. According to a Harvard University analysis of figures from the National Crime Victimization Survey, people defended themselves with a gun in nearly 0.9 percent of crimes from 2007 to 2011.

David Hemenway, who led the Harvard research, argues that the risks of owning a gun outweigh the benefits of having one in the rare case where you might need to defend yourself.

"The average person ... has basically no chance in their lifetime ever to use a gun in self-defense."​



It is my opinion that no one becomes a homosexual until they willingly perform sexual acts with a member of the same sex.
It is my opinion that one becomes a homophobe because he relies on the Bible rather than science for information.


Their journey to repentance is between them and God.
The only people who need repentance from an imaginary man in the sky are those that rely on ignorance.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
So, yes, you do believe that the voters (even the ignorant ones) should have a say in how a parent should raise their children.

What else should we put to a vote?

Should children be denied certain foods? Certain activities? Certain beliefs?

Anything considered by the masses to be "harmful"?

The voters should decide what is "minimal medical care"?

As I said from the start, its a slippery freakin' slope.

The kind of which that should never be entertained because people get a taste for that kind of power, that control, and it will lead to severe human rights violations.
While I happen to agree with you on forced vaccination, I do find it amusing, since I disagree with you on abortion.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
More accurately, it is a fetus. It is an as yet undeveloped human being. But it is not yet a person, which comes about when the brain is developed enough to have consciousness.
There you go. It is nacient human life, a developing human being. Sure a zygote is not the same as a person. But where do we draw the line. You want to draw it at consciousness. But that would allow for infanticide.

Certainly you must agree that there is no developmental difference between a baby just prior to labor, and just after delivery.



I disagree. All the cells of your body have the same number of chromosomes, but that doesn't make them fully human. It means they are partly human, but not fully so. The same is true of a fetus prior to the point where consciousness is possible.
A skin cell is like an arm -- it is clearly only a part. A zygote is the whole human being, but simply at an earlier stage of development.



And I disagree again. Abortions are the woman *in whose body something is growing* denying the right of that thing to continue growing. Even if it *were* a person, that woman has an absolute right to have it removed from her body.
Sorry, but it is not some "thing." It is nacient human life, and it is not the life of the woman, but a separate human being with rights of its own. I'm not saying that killing an embryo is murder. I'm simply pointing out that it's not the same thing as pulling a tooth or having a parasite excised.

Now, if it is possible for the fetus to maintain life outside of the mother's body, there is an argument that steps should be taken to ensure that while removing it from the woman who no longer wants to carry it.
According to one study in 2015, fetuses at 22 weeks gestation had a 25% chance of survival if delivered and treated at a hospital. Up to 35% of fetuses at 23 weeks gestation survive early birth. Advances in Medical Science have changed the abortion debate and the very effects of the Roe v. Wade arguments.
 
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