Utopia and Dystopia

[Samantha Rinne]

I want to ask everyone a personal question:

I am operating under the assumption that Heaven and Hell are not places in an afterlife, but rather a state of ideal happiness vs a state of flaw/unhappiness.

But since words Heaven and Hell are too theologically loaded, and people immediately tell me "I don't believe in no stinking Afterlife so Heaven and Hell don't exist." No ummm they do.
That point of lowest, anything from waiting in line at the DMV to that time when a relative did something awful to you. That's Hell. And likewise that time when you had the best date ever, some incredibly great job, etc. We'll call this Heaven.

But I know this because we've tried threads like this. They always fail because atheist types don't open up and participate (see above), and theist types think it's time to tell everyone theology about Heaven and Hell, or declare that they're Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist and that's not how it works. So instead of Heaven and Hell we are using...

Utopia - An ideal place, the sum of your hopes and dreams.
Dystopia - either a utopia gone horribly wrong, or a very flawed place, the sum of your fears.

Specifically, we are dealing in terms of personal utopia/dystopia rather than political utopia/dystopia. Your favorite people are invited, or least favorite in the latter case. But this is more about what makes you pleased/afraid, what do you work towards/against, what do you want most/least.

And yes, your utopia/dystopia can be as weird as possible, having spiders and clowns and spider clowns. Or like floating cities or something. Or it can be very mundane and realistic. I could say this is a utopia/dystopia you'd try to build, but I wanna keep it open-ended.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I want to ask everyone a personal question:

I am operating under the assumption that Heaven and Hell are not places in an afterlife, but rather a state of ideal happiness vs a state of flaw/unhappiness.

But since words Heaven and Hell are too theologically loaded, and people immediately tell me "I don't believe in no stinking Afterlife so Heaven and Hell don't exist." No ummm they do.
That point of lowest, anything from waiting in line at the DMV to that time when a relative did something awful to you. That's Hell. And likewise that time when you had the best date ever, some incredibly great job, etc. We'll call this Heaven.

But I know this because we've tried threads like this. They always fail because atheist types don't open up and participate (see above), and theist types think it's time to tell everyone theology about Heaven and Hell, or declare that they're Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist and that's not how it works. So instead of Heaven and Hell we are using...

Utopia - An ideal place, the sum of your hopes and dreams.
Dystopia - either a utopia gone horribly wrong, or a very flawed place, the sum of your fears.

Specifically, we are dealing in terms of personal utopia/dystopia rather than political utopia/dystopia. Your favorite people are invited, or least favorite in the latter case. But this is more about what makes you pleased/afraid, what do you work towards/against, what do you want most/least.

And yes, your utopia/dystopia can be as weird as possible, having spiders and clowns and spider clowns. Or like floating cities or something. Or it can be very mundane and realistic. I could say this is a utopia/dystopia you'd try to build, but I wanna keep it open-ended.

I'm sorry, but I somehow missed the question.

You defined utopia and dystopia in your post in ways that I think most theists and atheists should be able to accept. But if we accept these definitions... what are you specifically asking?

 

[sun rise]

Utopia - An ideal place, the sum of your hopes and dreams.
Dystopia - either a utopia gone horribly wrong, or a very flawed place, the sum of your fears.

There's a story typically focused on heaven and hell but to me fits quite nicely into this dichotomy:

There's a table with a feast being served to very hungry people. Everyone has one arm tied behind their backs and a long spoon. In utopia, everyone feeds someone else and all are happy. In dystopia, no one gets fed due to supreme selfishness and everyone is miserable.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

I'm sorry, but I somehow missed the question.

You defined utopia and dystopia in your post in ways that I think most theists and atheists should be able to accept. But if we accept these definitions... what are you specifically asking?

Specifically, I am asking you to define your utopia and dystopia. Like sun rise did (though I think he only did the utopia, and his utopia is horrifying to me).

For example, my idea of dystopia would be either forced to go through the bureaucracy and red tape of my name and gender change again (think DMV is bad? Try dealing with the DMV, Department of Social Security, and IRS), or possibly right now with social distance (I associate isolation with rejection).

I'm honestly not sure I have a utopia. I'm notoriously unhappy. I guess it would be a series of pocket universes that kinda extended in a town sized circle, where you basically hang around only people you want. Kinda like a chatroom universe. But right now that seems to suck.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Specifically, I am asking you to define your utopia and dystopia. Like sun rise did (though I think he only did the utopia, and his utopia is horrifying to me).

For example, my idea of dystopia would be either forced to go through the bureaucracy and red tape of my name and gender change again (think DMV is bad? Try dealing with the DMV, Department of Social Security, and IRS), or possibly right now with social distance (I associate isolation with rejection).

I'm honestly not sure I have a utopia. I'm notoriously unhappy. I guess it would be a series of pocket universes that kinda extended in a town sized circle, where you basically hang around only people you want. Kinda like a chatroom universe. But right now that seems to suck.

I think the definitions you gave are fine.

Utopia - An ideal place, the sum of your hopes and dreams.
Dystopia - either a utopia gone horribly wrong, or a very flawed place, the sum of your fears.

However, telling you precisely what constitutes the sum of my hopes and dreams would be impossible, since they are constantly changing. And in fact, they would HAVE to be changing in order for it to be my utopia. Because if I got everything I hope and dream of right NOW that would be great... for awhile... but eventually it would become boring. I can't be happy unless I have new dreams to strive for and challenges to overcome. If I were to exist in a constant state of euphoria I would eventually not comprehend what euphoria was because it would be all I know. There has to be contrast for anything to have any meaning.

So in a sense I guess you could say that one type of dystopia for me would be an unchanging utopia.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I don't think one can separate a personal utopia from a political one, in that one lives some idealised life whilst ignoring all else that exists outside one's own little bubble, which is what happens now to a great extent. And as such, we are headed for world dystopia, because we often are pulling/pushing in different directions and not addressing the issues that we should be doing. Probably one utopia would be humans living in some kind of harmony with all others, other life, and having regard for the planet so as not to destroy it, but that leaves the field rather open as to what such a utopia might be. Enormous wealth differences hardly seems to contribute to any such utopia, other than for the wealthy in their little bubbles, or for those who provide the apparent necessities for those more well off than themselves, and destined to remain so it seems. In all probability we are destined for dystopia, given that we only seem to act too late and too little when confronted by threats, and then we rue over our failure to predict them - but where so often they were predicted.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

I don't think one can separate a personal utopia from a political one, in that one lives some idealised life whilst ignoring all else that exists outside one's own little bubble, which is what happens now to a great extent. And as such, we are headed for world dystopia, because we often are pulling/pushing in different directions and not addressing the issues that we should be doing. Probably one utopia would be humans living in some kind of harmony with all others, other life, and having regard for the planet so as not to destroy it, but that leaves the field rather open as to what such a utopia might be. Enormous wealth differences hardly seems to contribute to any such utopia, other than for the wealthy in their little bubbles, or for those who provide the apparent necessities for those more well off than themselves, and destined to remain so it seems. In all probability we are destined for dystopia, given that we only seem to act too late and too little when confronted by threats, and then we rue over our failure to predict them - but where so often they were predicted.

In some sense, I think this is exactly the problem I'm looking at. You ever hear of Henry Ford? Guy built all these cars, revolutionized the town, became hugely wealthy. But then he was horrified by this place, because with his money, he built a town stuck in time. Horse drawn wagons, no engines of any kind allowed.

Most of the wealthy either are likewise disgusted and try to give back in a vain attempt to relieve guilt, or to build little bubbles for themselves. The worst of them try to create bubbles for others, that is to control the entire world with an ideal.

I would like to say that a utopia would be those people dead in some horrible fashion, and the rest of the world divided into person-sized nationstates. But with Coronavirus this is almost happening, plus big government so either government must be removed from the equation, or more likely my thinking is dead wrong.

I'm inclined toward the latter, as I strongly feel like Henry Ford lately. But a unified world under one vision doesn't seem right either. Whose vision? We'd probably get a tyrant telling us to bark like a dog.

 

[Heyo]

There's a story typically focused on heaven and hell but to me fits quite nicely into this dichotomy:

There's a table with a feast being served to very hungry people. Everyone has one arm tied behind their backs and a long spoon. In utopia, everyone feeds someone else and all are happy. In dystopia, no one gets fed due to supreme selfishness and everyone is miserable.

I think that allegory says a lot about our views of the future. It's not important what technology we'll have, it's important what we do with it.

 

[Heyo]

I want to ask everyone a personal question:

I am operating under the assumption that Heaven and Hell are not places in an afterlife, but rather a state of ideal happiness vs a state of flaw/unhappiness.

But since words Heaven and Hell are too theologically loaded, and people immediately tell me "I don't believe in no stinking Afterlife so Heaven and Hell don't exist." No ummm they do.
That point of lowest, anything from waiting in line at the DMV to that time when a relative did something awful to you. That's Hell. And likewise that time when you had the best date ever, some incredibly great job, etc. We'll call this Heaven.

But I know this because we've tried threads like this. They always fail because atheist types don't open up and participate (see above), and theist types think it's time to tell everyone theology about Heaven and Hell, or declare that they're Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist and that's not how it works. So instead of Heaven and Hell we are using...

Utopia - An ideal place, the sum of your hopes and dreams.
Dystopia - either a utopia gone horribly wrong, or a very flawed place, the sum of your fears.

Specifically, we are dealing in terms of personal utopia/dystopia rather than political utopia/dystopia. Your favorite people are invited, or least favorite in the latter case. But this is more about what makes you pleased/afraid, what do you work towards/against, what do you want most/least.

And yes, your utopia/dystopia can be as weird as possible, having spiders and clowns and spider clowns. Or like floating cities or something. Or it can be very mundane and realistic. I could say this is a utopia/dystopia you'd try to build, but I wanna keep it open-ended.

"Hell" said Satre, "is other people."
That's why I think a true utopia will be in space. A place which the "other people" can't reach. When we build an utopia on earth, it will be destroyed by people who's life style is endangered by happy people.

 

[Mock Turtle]

In some sense, I think this is exactly the problem I'm looking at. You ever hear of Henry Ford? Guy built all these cars, revolutionized the town, became hugely wealthy. But then he was horrified by this place, because with his money, he built a town stuck in time. Horse drawn wagons, no engines of any kind allowed.

Most of the wealthy either are likewise disgusted and try to give back in a vain attempt to relieve guilt, or to build little bubbles for themselves. The worst of them try to create bubbles for others, that is to control the entire world with an ideal.

I would like to say that a utopia would be those people dead in some horrible fashion, and the rest of the world divided into person-sized nationstates. But with Coronavirus this is almost happening, plus big government so either government must be removed from the equation, or more likely my thinking is dead wrong.

I'm inclined toward the latter, as I strongly feel like Henry Ford lately. But a unified world under one vision doesn't seem right either. Whose vision? We'd probably get a tyrant telling us to bark like a dog.

Well I have no particular notions concerning utopia, but I would like to see some better conditions for most rather than the few. Seems we have educated ourselves sufficiently to know that such disparities are not good for humans - well not all.

And perhaps we could start with the manufacturers (and the consumers thereby) paying for the disposal of items or recycling them when of no further use (included in the cost therefore) - currently pointing at Elon Musk here concerning his satellites and the likely damage they will cause, but everyone has contributed. Too late for all the other bits we sent into space. And much the same goes for all the pollution we have managed to produce with hardly a thought as to what happens to such.

That is where my utopia begins rather than ends, but I suppose the wealth being more evenly distributed and the lessening of religions' influence all around the world would also help. But I still think we are headed for dystopia.

 

[MNoBody]

There's a story typically focused on heaven and hell but to me fits quite nicely into this dichotomy:

There's a table with a feast being served to very hungry people. Everyone has one arm tied behind their backs and a long spoon. In utopia, everyone feeds someone else and all are happy. In dystopia, no one gets fed due to supreme selfishness and everyone is miserable.

that's basically the whole movie "Platform" summed up nicely...should do reviews m8

 

[MNoBody]

reality, being that which persists despite how you squint yer eyes.....I find it perfectly imperfect, in that the whole place is depicted by all religions as being some kind of exile or testing, something to "get the hell out of at all cost fer the good of yer immortal soul", which is why funerals were usually joyous for the released prisoner who didn't have to "struggle on" whilst conforming to the calm of the malaise of society.
Thus, the place works fine in that regard, so why imagine a "better" one, since, who would want to believe this one....thus all the coping mechanisms and crazy stories to give existential prisoners on death row some Hope.