Unwilling agnosticism

[Drolefille]

So figured I'd post as kind of an update to me as well as a general thread. I certainly don't mind being challenged because being challenged on points is how I work things out.

So anyway, I still am seeking faith. I want to believe, but don't know in what. I've poked around pretty hard at paganism lately, and even ended up owing a debt to the household faeries. Note: I'm not claiming they're real, just that I made a bargain in a half joking/half desperate manner and since it happened I feel obligated to keep my half of the bargain. Note 2: I paid the debt.

I've learned that my mom's side of the family has a tradition of Sardinian witchcraft - that this is not the Stregheria that is AFAICT a syncretization of folk practices with Wiccan practices. Instead it is old folk "magic" or "clever folk" sorts of abilities that have been syncretized into the very transactional style of Italian Catholicism. My mom, her cousin, her grandmother are incredibly Catholic, and yet there are enough odd occurrences I can't comfortably rationalize them away.

So I'm trying to explore that, which has involved a lot of dead ends as I'm trying to pick through Grimassi's writings as well as the more folklorist side of things. I've picked up tarot cards, more for a LARP character than anything, but I see them primarily as a counseling tool.

But I WANT to believe in something. I cannot explain that, and that is what keeps me sitting here as an unwilling agnostic. I want to know, but moreso I want to believe. I've prayed to God, I've prayed to The Goddess, to several goddesses, to the universe - that one's a bit too abstract for me - but I just want to have that feeling of faith again.

It leaves me more than a bit lost sometimes. I see myself as practical, as pragmatic, and acknowledge that in many ways this is not the pragmatic view - to desire a faith one cannot obtain. But c'est la vie.


So I don't know, I just wanted to word vomit that all over the place. Thanks for reading.

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Drolefille. Although my journey has been different than you describe in the details, I can relate the feeling of seeking 'Something' that addresses my belief that there is more to life than just survival, or even more than success and happiness. I believe in some deep way that our lives have a meaning and calling greater than just what we ourselves might choose.

I don't think there is any single path that can fulfill this for you, or for anyone; likely each person could find a number of different ways, although not every way is good and not every way suits every person. Sorry for this fluffy speech, but I'm just trying to convey that I think there are many kinds of 'faith' that can fulfill us as humans, not just my kind, or another's.

How did faith feel to you as you recall having it before? I think faith is more than just believing in something supernatural. I think it is a way of looking at the world.

 

[Drolefille]

Hi Drolefille. Although my journey has been different than you describe in the details, I can relate the feeling of seeking 'Something' that addresses my belief that there is more to life than just survival, or even more than success and happiness. I believe in some deep way that our lives have a meaning and calling greater than just what we ourselves might choose.

I don't think there is any single path that can fulfill this for you, or for anyone; likely each person could find a number of different ways, although not every way is good and not every way suits every person. Sorry for this fluffy speech, but I'm just trying to convey that I think there are many kinds of 'faith' that can fulfill us as humans, not just my kind, or another's.

How did faith feel to you as you recall having it before? I think faith is more than just believing in something supernatural. I think it is a way of looking at the world.

No worries about fluffy, I can do fluffy sometimes

I was Catholic before and it wasn't just belief in God but the 'whole package' as it were. It was absolutely a worldview, and one that lingers to an extent.

I don't think I believe in one true path for everyone, but I'm just looking for a path for me.

 

[Sees]

A good place to start is what is the deepest, know it in your bones beliefs you have about life, the world, your self, people in general, what you know sparks something in your heart/soul.

That is a solid foundation we build on and metaphysical truths or beliefs will alter, evolve, grow, come and go - depending on our experiences, info we come into contact with and presentation, our state of mind and health, etc.

Our true beliefs will be what they will be, not what a certain tradition says in so many words or even what we profess. Knowing thy self is understanding that core that all the others revolve around in endless flux.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

So figured I'd post as kind of an update to me as well as a general thread. I certainly don't mind being challenged because being challenged on points is how I work things out.

So anyway, I still am seeking faith. I want to believe, but don't know in what. I've poked around pretty hard at paganism lately, and even ended up owing a debt to the household faeries. Note: I'm not claiming they're real, just that I made a bargain in a half joking/half desperate manner and since it happened I feel obligated to keep my half of the bargain. Note 2: I paid the debt.

I've learned that my mom's side of the family has a tradition of Sardinian witchcraft - that this is not the Stregheria that is AFAICT a syncretization of folk practices with Wiccan practices. Instead it is old folk "magic" or "clever folk" sorts of abilities that have been syncretized into the very transactional style of Italian Catholicism. My mom, her cousin, her grandmother are incredibly Catholic, and yet there are enough odd occurrences I can't comfortably rationalize them away.

So I'm trying to explore that, which has involved a lot of dead ends as I'm trying to pick through Grimassi's writings as well as the more folklorist side of things. I've picked up tarot cards, more for a LARP character than anything, but I see them primarily as a counseling tool.

But I WANT to believe in something. I cannot explain that, and that is what keeps me sitting here as an unwilling agnostic. I want to know, but moreso I want to believe. I've prayed to God, I've prayed to The Goddess, to several goddesses, to the universe - that one's a bit too abstract for me - but I just want to have that feeling of faith again.

It leaves me more than a bit lost sometimes. I see myself as practical, as pragmatic, and acknowledge that in many ways this is not the pragmatic view - to desire a faith one cannot obtain. But c'est la vie.


So I don't know, I just wanted to word vomit that all over the place. Thanks for reading.

Hello, again, Drole. Sans the details, this is pretty much how I came to be an animist. I finally gave up on the more extensive and organized systems and looked instead to what my experiences are and have been. And what works for me is belief in spirits, with little above the "folk" level. So, maybe your familial tradition is a place to start.

 

[Drolefille]

Hello, again, Drole. Sans the details, this is pretty much how I came to be an animist. I finally gave up on the more extensive and organized systems and looked instead to what my experiences are and have been. And what works for me is belief in spirits, with little above the "folk" level. So, maybe your familial tradition is a place to start.

Yeah the tricky thing with family tradition is it isn't something that is talked about much. My mom didn't mention it to me until a couple of years ago (I'm 30 for reference) but then she's also mentioned the ghosts of her dad and even my first dog, and had odd precognitive things that just kind of go past the "easily explained by coincidence" level. It's just that I didn't know it was a traditional thing rather than a "my mom's kind of odd" thing. Particularly since my mom is pretty down to earth -a very practical Catholic - in every other way.

But I am trying to explore it some, just mostly casually at the moment.

 

[Drolefille]

Dear multiple *apparently?* muslim members of this forum:

I am not looking to convert to, or follow Islam. I'm not sure why I've gotten multiple messages from two different members wanting to talk to me about islam and Allah. But I only got the second one after politely declining the first AND without any thread update which makes me just paranoid enough to think it was in concert.

Regardless, while I do appreciate questions and challenges, I'm really looking to convert to Islam. I'm bisexual, I'm polyamorous - I have two boyfriends and one sweetheart, I will continue to eat pork and not follow hijab.

Islam is honestly a very cool religion in many respects. I have a lot of respect for those who are devout and sincere without desiring to impress its beliefs on others. But I'm fairly firmly convinced that you didn't read anything I posted, or anything about me if you thought that anything but the most liberal forms of Islam would be an option for me.

If you want to challenge me, or ask me questions, do so here, not in PMs. By PMing me about following Allah, I feel like it's possible you're trying to get around the prohibitions on proselytizing. I'll answer any questions you like, including my issues with Islam, Allah and his followers but I'll do so in public.

 

[technomage]

Hi, Drollafille,

Your story sounds like me ... except I started out Protestant, changed to Wicca, then drifted into agnosticism while still also being Wiccan.

I'm not terribly pious or devout as a Wiccan. I don't bother wearing a pentacle, I don't do a deliberate ritual on the Sabbats, I don't do "magic" in the sense many Wiccans mean. I'm just here, living my life, being me.

For me, Wicca is more of an esthetic choice than a religious choice. I believe life matters, even if after we die, we're done. I believe doing the right thing matters, even if so many people on this planet do wrong, and get away with it. Most of all, I believe love matters.

It's the ultimate "credo quia absurdum"--I still believe, even though I know my beliefs don't match reality. If you never took Latin, "Credo quia absurdum" means "I believe because it is absurd." I know my beliefs are absurd ... but I still choose to believe, because I want to.

Believe whatever you choose. Grimassi is a very poor source of history ... but then again, so is Gerald Gardner. But whatever you believe, whatever you choose, choose love.

Because in the end, love is all that counts.

 

[LuisDantas]

So I don't know, I just wanted to word vomit that all over the place. Thanks for reading.

Interesting that you say that, because I was reading this article

In Italy Online - The Witches of Sardinia

and this jumped at my eyes (no, not literally):

Ordinarily, she wouldn't give out that sort of information, especially to a non-Italian. In fact, when this occurred I had already known her for years and never once had she mentioned anything about sorcery, magic, or anything of the kind. She told me that the witches of Sardinia are very secretive. They speak only in the sardo dialect, which is really almost a different language. Practically every village has a witch but outsiders can never find out who they are. The majority of them are female; a mother passes her secrets down to only one of her daughters, starting from when the girl is very little. If she has no daughter, the witch takes her secrets with her to the grave. There are very few male witches and Luisa said she had never known of one in all her years growing up in Sardinia. But she had heard of them. A male witch is called a minechicudet ( omine chi iscudet--literally, the man who sends away.) There is nothing written about these Sardinian magic-makers, male or female: it's all word of mouth.

Generally, the witch is a beautiful woman; almost always, she is married with children. But [/i]her husband and family come second to her calling.[/i] When townspeople seek her services, she usually gives them free of charge. (...)

This is white magic, good magic. But then, unfortunately, there is black magic. How much black magic the witches perform is unknown; it simply isn't spoken of. But if the witch is willing to do black magic, she will--very hush hush--make a doll out of cork or rags, then stick a pin in the shoulder or the leg. The person who commissioned the curse then hides the doll in a secret place in the cursed one's home, probably on top of a ceiling beam or under an eave or beneath a floorboard. In short time, the person starts having a series of misfortunes or gets a terrible ache in the shoulder or a dreadful pain in the leg. And until the object is discovered and removed from the house, his woes continue.

(The emphasis are mine) it makes it appear to me that this tradition you mention is very much a hereditary priesthood, taken very seriously and probably very hard to ignore if you have the call (whatever that happens to be exactly).

Several important points are hinted at by the text above, many of which really transcend the boundaries of witchcraft proper. Alas, one of the most clear is that you will have the hardest of times obtaining useful information to deal with this call/vocation/spiritual unrest from online forums.

The most I can figure is that it truly seems to be at some level a duty of learning some sort of personal wisdom (not so much a tradition proper, I assume), probably accompanied by a certain kind of personality that has the capability if not the eagerness to express that wisdom for others. It is not necessarily easy or even possible to describe that wisdom outside the highly favorable environment of being raised by one's predecessor on that path. In fact, I highly recommend that you learn and reach your own conclusions about the meaning and importance of the concept of transmission.

If you truly want or need to attempt to deal with that by reading something, I suppose Wicca and Paganism sources are fairly natural choices, although it seems to me that it can be a bit dicey (this is not a very homogeneous and safe field, it seems to me). But don't exclude other sources, particularly if you happen to have an interest in anthropology or compared religions (and I have a hunch that you do; it is in fact likely that such an interest is part of the "package"). Shamanism, Dharmic religions, Tibetan tradition religion (not necessarily or even particularly Vajrayana Buddhism), even the Druze faith all seem to resemble aspects of this picture and might perhaps be of use to you.

Hope I am not just rambling about my own biases. Just thought it might be of some use to you.

 

[Drolefille]

Interesting that you say that, because I was reading this article

In Italy Online - The Witches of Sardinia

and this jumped at my eyes (no, not literally):

I have in fact read that.

(The emphasis are mine) it makes it appear to me that this tradition you mention is very much a hereditary priesthood, taken very seriously and probably very hard to ignore if you have the call (whatever that happens to be exactly).

Several important points are hinted at by the text above, many of which really transcend the boundaries of witchcraft proper. Alas, one of the most clear is that you will have the hardest of times obtaining useful information to deal with this call/vocation/spiritual unrest from online forums.

Yup. I don't really expect to find the info here particularly, though I've poked around. You never know if someone else with more connection to the tradition shows up right? Problem is my mom and cousin don't know much and while we have family in Sardinia, I don't speak Italian or Sardinian.

I have seen it as less than priesthood, more like duty to the people. In rural Italy this would have been one's village. I was about to say it wasn't so much a vocation, but it is in the sense that being a doctor or a counselor is, rather than a priest. The term I get stuck in my head is "cunning folk.
Speaking of the primary source on that article is a folklorist who I think I want to at least send an email and see what she'd recommend as she both studied this, traveled to Sardinia, and at some point also converted to some form of paganism.

The most I can figure is that it truly seems to be at some level a duty of learning some sort of personal wisdom (not so much a tradition proper, I assume), probably accompanied by a certain kind of personality that has the capability if not the eagerness to express that wisdom for others. It is not necessarily easy or even possible to describe that wisdom outside the highly favorable environment of being raised by one's predecessor on that path. In fact, I highly recommend that you learn and reach your own conclusions about the meaning and importance of the concept of transmission.

This is definitely more of what I'm thinking about. Honestly part of my problem is I get a little shy about actually talking to my family about it. (Thankfully my cousin has no problem doing the talking, for hours. We're Italian *shrug*)

If you truly want or need to attempt to deal with that by reading something, I suppose Wicca and Paganism sources are fairly natural choices, although it seems to me that it can be a bit dicey (this is not a very homogeneous and safe field, it seems to me). But don't exclude other sources, particularly if you happen to have an interest in anthropology or compared religions (and I have a hunch that you do; it is in fact likely that such an interest is part of the "package"). Shamanism, Dharmic religions, Tibetan tradition religion (not necessarily or even particularly Vajrayana Buddhism), even the Druze faith all seem to resemble aspects of this picture and might perhaps be of use to you.

Indeed, I've been reading a lot of varied things. Wicca itself has never appealed to me, hence why I don't find the Stregheria much of a viable way to approach this as actual practice, but maybe able to find the actual meat hiding in the casserole, as it were.

I bought a textbook just for an article (by the aforementioned folklorist) that I read just along enough to have an "aha" moment about how Stregheria fits with the "cunning folk" and not to resent it (it's keeping the practices while adopting a new framework.) It also helped me look at Italian Catholicism in a new light - very transaction-based, more polytheist leaning in practice, etc.

Hope I am not just rambling about my own biases. Just thought it might be of some use to you.

Not at all, talking stuff out helps me think. Reading other people's stuff leads to new thoughts

Hi, Drollafille,

Your story sounds like me ... except I started out Protestant, changed to Wicca, then drifted into agnosticism while still also being Wiccan.

I'm not terribly pious or devout as a Wiccan. I don't bother wearing a pentacle, I don't do a deliberate ritual on the Sabbats, I don't do "magic" in the sense many Wiccans mean. I'm just here, living my life, being me.

For me, Wicca is more of an esthetic choice than a religious choice. I believe life matters, even if after we die, we're done. I believe doing the right thing matters, even if so many people on this planet do wrong, and get away with it. Most of all, I believe love matters.

Word. (Wicca itself has never specifically called to me, but I agree with the intent, if that makes sense.)

It's the ultimate "credo quia absurdum"--I still believe, even though I know my beliefs don't match reality. If you never took Latin, "Credo quia absurdum" means "I believe because it is absurd." I know my beliefs are absurd ... but I still choose to believe, because I want to.

This is the difficulty I have a hard time getting over. How do I create/instigate/force belief from scratch?

Believe whatever you choose. Grimassi is a very poor source of history ... but then again, so is Gerald Gardner. But whatever you believe, whatever you choose, choose love.

Believe me, I'm searching Grimassi for the gold flakes among the river silt. Mostly because the historical matters to me. I want to know where it comes from. If he had said "I made this up because it fit with Wicca for me, but I changed X, Y and Z." that's one thing. But instead it became "I am the passer down of the true secret witch customs for ever." So yah.

Because in the end, love is all that counts.

Love as thou wilt

 

[technomage]

This is the difficulty I have a hard time getting over. How do I create/instigate/force belief from scratch?

I never tried to force belief ... I just go with the flow. For me, enjoying and appreciating nature means I have to acknowledge the nasty as well as the nice. Spring is wonderful, because everything is coming alive ... but I have to learn to appreciate that autumn is also wonderful, even though everything is dying back. I've learned to love others ... but I've also learned to love myself.

Believe me, I'm searching Grimassi for the gold flakes among the river silt. Mostly because the historical matters to me. I want to know where it comes from. If he had said "I made this up because it fit with Wicca for me, but I changed X, Y and Z." that's one thing. But instead it became "I am the passer down of the true secret witch customs for ever." So yah.

You get a lot of that in Wicca--I can't tell you how many "trained by my grandmother" types I've met.

Love as thou wilt

Word.

 

[Drolefille]

1. Unitarian Universalism (100%)
2. Liberal Quakers - Religious Society of Friends (90%)
3. Secular Humanism (83%)
4. Neo-Pagan (83%)
5. Taoism (75%)
6. Mainline - Liberal Christian Protestants (73%)
7. New Age (72%)
8. Mahayana Buddhism (64%)
9. Theravada Buddhism (62%)
10. Non-theist (61%)
11. Reform Judaism (59%)
12. New Thought (58%)
13. Orthodox Quaker - Religious Society of Friends (56%)
14. Sikhism (41%)
15. Jainism (40%)
16. Christian Science Church of Christ, Scientist (37%)
17. Scientology (34%)
18. Bahai (33%)
19. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (31%)
20. Hinduism (30%)
21. Islam (28%)
22. Orthodox Judaism (27%)
23. Seventh Day Adventist (25%)
24. Mainline - Conservative Christian Protestant (22%)
25. Eastern Orthodox (18%)
26. Roman Catholic (18%)
27. Jehovahs Witness (12%)

http://www.selectsmart.com/PRO/myreligion.php

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Have you guys ever read the works of Robert Anton Wilson? He was an agnostic mystic.

CREATIVE AGNOSTICISM

 

[Drolefille]

Have you guys ever read the works of Robert Anton Wilson? He was an agnostic mystic.

CREATIVE AGNOSTICISM

I'm not familiar with him, would you recommend a book by him? I feel like I entered that article in the middle of a conversation that he was having with someone else.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I'm not familiar with him, would you recommend a book by him? I feel like I entered that article in the middle of a conversation that he was having with someone else.

I don't know which books I should recommend. I guess the New Inquisition or Prometheus Rising would be a good place to start. I am looking for this lecture he gave on agnosticism. According to RAW; agnosticism is our default state because in the state of agnosticism you are still searching out the mystery, you are still questioning and discovering whereas in both theism and atheism you believe that mystery is solved, all the questions are answered and there is no more need to discover. His works are very spiritual but I would say it is a spiritual agnosticism, a spirituality for people who question everything.

 

[Drolefille]

So, lately I feel myself ever more pushed away from the Catholic Church - I've always kind of kept in touch, but man, I don't know what it is, but it feels like the Church is that ex who I shouldn't have kept on my facebook, but did. And now it's time to let it go.

Feels like a loss of part of my past, but the right thing to do.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

So, lately I feel myself ever more pushed away from the Catholic Church - I've always kind of kept in touch, but man, I don't know what it is, but it feels like the Church is that ex who I shouldn't have kept on my facebook, but did. And now it's time to let it go.

Feels like a loss of part of my past, but the right thing to do.

Well, I'd say go with the flow. The spirits will move you as you need to be moved, and in time it will make sense.

Well, maybe. That's what I keep telling myself, at least.

 

[Bunyip]

I don't see the conflict - you can have all the faith in the world and remain agnostic.
Faith is independant of knowledge.

Forgive me, but since others are recomending books - my suggestion would be 'The incomparable exploits of Mullah Nasrudin', by Idres Shah.

You say that you are a pragmatist, and sufi parables are about as pragmatic as you can get. (It is also beautiful, moving and deeply amusing ).

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So, lately I feel myself ever more pushed away from the Catholic Church - I've always kind of kept in touch, but man, I don't know what it is, but it feels like the Church is that ex who I shouldn't have kept on my facebook, but did. And now it's time to let it go.

Feels like a loss of part of my past, but the right thing to do.

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

[Drolefille]

I don't see the conflict - you can have all the faith in the world and remain agnostic.
Faith is independant of knowledge.

Forgive me, but since others are recomending books - my suggestion would be 'The incomparable exploits of Mullah Nasrudin', by Idres Shah.

You say that you are a pragmatist, and sufi parables are about as pragmatic as you can get. (It is also beautiful, moving and deeply amusing ).

I use agnostic in the broader "don't believe because I don't know" sense.

But thanks, I'll add it to my long and possibly never going to be fulfilled list.