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Untranslated fourth word of the Bible

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Ronald, Jun 28, 2005.

  1. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Berishis bara elohim et. In the beginning God created _________! He created what?
    Aleph Tav (0853) Strongs Basically untranslated!

    Well John translated it in Revelations, Re 21:6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
    Re 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."

    Alpha and the Omega in Hebrew is Aleph Tav. The beginning and the end.
    Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    In the beginning God created _________!In the beginning God created Jesus/Word !
    The Word of God, whereby the narrative of John 1:1-4
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    Oh, my - not untranslated!

    Whatever could it mean? Hopefully Ronald will be able to use his magic decoder ring to explicate the meaning of this (dare I say it again?) untranslated word - a meaning that has somehow escaped those uninspired sinners who gave us the many translations currently available. And this will be very, very good since the same untranslated word also appears in ...This should be thrilling!

    Or not ... :(
     
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  3. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    You are right it appears and is untranslated in English in each of the verses.
    Strongs, 853 appar. cont. from 226 in the demonstr. sense of enity; prop. self (but gen. used to point out more def. the object of a verb or prep,, even or namely):---{as such unrepresented in English}
     
  4. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    Ah, all is clear. ;)
     
  5. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    Please don't be so ignorant.

    Do you truly believe that it is no more than a coincidence that 853-226 = 627, and that 627 BCE is the end of the reign of Ashurbanipal, King of Assyria, whose death two years later led inexorably to the rise of the evil Babylonian Empire and the destruction of the 1st Temple? Gnostic heretic!
     
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  6. Lintu

    Lintu Active Member

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    Wait, what? The fourth word in "berei**** bara elohim et" is "et"...and isn't that just the particle that marks a direct object?
     
  7. jew123

    jew123 New Member

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    im pretty sure that et has no meaning in hebrew
     
  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    That's fair. After all, the OP has no meaning in Judaism.
     
  9. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Aleph to Tav is the protoplasm of the universe.
    Exerpts from The Wisdom in the Hebrew Alphabet, by R' Michael Munk
    Rabbi Dov Ber, The Magid of Mezritch, writes:
     
  10. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Aleph to Tav is the protoplasm of the universe.
    Exerpts from The Wisdom in the Hebrew Alphabet, by R' Michael Munk
    Rabbi Dov Ber, The Magid of Mezritch, writes:
    It is known in Kabbalistic literature that the letters of the Aleph-Beis were created first of all. Thereafter, by use of the letters , the Holy One , Blessed is He, created all the worlds. This is the hidden meaning of the first phrase in Torah, "In the beginning God created Aleph Tav"____ that is, God's first act was to create the letters from Aleph to Tav(Or Torah: see p. 35)

    ____ The Talmud states Abraham observed the Torah from Aleph to Tav.(Yoma 28b)

    Aleph to Tav: Completion
    _________________________________________________________________________
    Excerpt from the New Testament; Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;
    1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
     
  11. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    Ronald, do you have any idea how insulting and disrespectful it is to reduce Midrash and Aggadah to such silliness? Buy the Sefer Ha-Aggadah and actual read it. The last thing that Judaism needs is the superficial ignorantly cherry-picking its literature.
     
  12. jew123

    jew123 New Member

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    deut. 32.8,

    what is the OT
     
  13. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    OP ::= Opening Post
     
  14. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    To me, it's quite simple: "In one beginning [out of many?], God created the heavens and the earth". Had it been the beginning, it should have been be-harre****h, not be-re****h. It is also interesting to speculate on what other heavens were created. Finishing, I fully agree with Deut over Ronald on the Kabbala vs. Midrash issue.
     
  15. Finnyhaha

    Finnyhaha Member

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    "eht" (alef-chireq-tav) is simply the marker of the direct object (noun upon which the action is performed). In this case it would be the object which God was creating. I would assume the next word would be the object. . but I don't know what "Hashamayem" (hey-patach-shin-quametz-mem-patach-yod-chiroq-mem) means. Anyone help me out? (too lazy to look it up)
     
  16. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    I invite each of you to read "An Overview" in the Stone Edition of the Chumash!

    See the words of a Sage of Israel write about the very things spoken in Johns Gospel and elludeded to in my posts.

    Truth is Truth, even when one can't percieve truth.
     
  17. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Literally, the Heavens. Yes, two of them. At least in form. Like Yerushalayim, 'the two Jerusalems', and there are just so many attempts trying to explain those words. Why two heavens and one earth? etc.
    I think that "two heavens" is just a remainder of ancient cosmology, and that we safely can translate it as "heaven." For Jerusalem, I disagree with most interpretations, and think that although it might refers to the "upper and lower" cities of Jerusalem of old, it it is more logical to read 'Yerushalem' like the consonants suggest, than 'Yerushalayim' like the Masoretes pointed it.
     
  18. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    This makes a whole lot of sense to me at this stage in my life and I would like to know if you still feel this way here 4 to 5 months later about what you posted?
     
  19. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    "Et" is never mandatory in Hebrew, it's only optional. Ben Gurion was famous in refusing to use this word. Removing "et" from any Hebrew sentence can never change the meaning, as far as I know.
     
  20. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    The first word is be're**** not ba're**** meaning that the "The" is even more inappropriate. Also, the literal translation would be First, or At First, not In the beginning. If they wanted to say, In The Beginning, they would have used ba'hatkhaka. The reason it is translated literally as First is because be're**** comes from the word rishon, meaning first.

    In addition, the word itself "gods" is indeed plural, but is being used extensively throughout the OT to describe a single god. The verb bara - created - is in its singular form. It's like you would write "they goes" instead of "they go" or "he goes".
    However, since you're talking about a literal translation, then I suppose the sentence "at first, gods created ...." is also correct - just remember the "created" is in its singular form. Also, Bara is an active verb and they don't use Nivra, the passive form meaning to be created. In the Torah, bara is use to describe creation of something out of nothing (which only G-d can do). The concept is called yesh meain. Other words like asah, yatzar (formed), also mean created, but only refer to creation of something from something else - yesh me'yesh.

    So if you look at the hebrew in Gen 1:26 and 1:27 and in otherplaces, you will find some interesting stuff. G-d says lets create - naase - man, and then it says G-d created - vayivra - man. Funky stuff is going on, that is not quite apparent in the English. However, to my limited knowledge, most of the English translations make the distinction between make and create.
     
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