University

[Rival]

Hello RF Journal,

This year I am going back to Sixth Form College (dear American, Canadian users, Google this, because it's not Uni). I am there for two years as usual for a student and then most of those students will go on to University. I am hell bent on not going. Yet everyone wants me to.

It's because, in most people's terms, I guess I'm holier-than-thou. Yep, I'm admitting it.

I don't know about anywhere else, but Universities here are less centres of learning and more of human youth at its worst.

For a start, I don't drink, I'm waiting until I'm married, I'm a strong Christian, I can't stand parties, I don't make friends easily, I'm outspoken and a deep thinker. To contrast, most Uni students enjoy drinking to get hammered, sex like prostitutes, party like it's 2000 and have large circles of friends who aren't really friends and can be dropped at a moment's notice. I am truly sorry, dear proletariat, but I don't like your ways.

Also, Uni sounds very stressful. I generally don't become stressed and don't worry before exams, but I really don't like being around stressy people either. It does my head in. No offence. Uni as well seems to teach very liberal thought, where I am very conservative.

Also, I'm not hell bent on having a career. I just want to be a wife and mother, homemaker if you will. I feel that going to Uni may ultimately be a waste of my time and effort. I could get along being a teacher, but really it's not my ideal lifestyle. I gravitate strongly towards English based subjects, (history, philosophy, English, psychology, etc and also good at languages) but far, far away from maths, physics, chemistry, medicine, etc.

But going to Uni just seems to be "the done thing" now and it's hard to find jobs in this country. I live up North and trust me it's difficult to find anything more than stacking shelves.

My hobbies include learning foreign languages, writing (mostly erotic) novels, poetry, etc, going for long walks, Church, collecting Bibles, Bible study and reading philosophical works.

Damn it.

 

[Jumi]

The Unis I went to had clubs for Christians, a club for absolutists, political parties, agendas etc, so I think you'll probably find plenty of like-minded people there if you want to find them.

 

[HonestJoe]

As a former University student, I take your characterisation as a gross insult (how do you feel when people say "most Christians are hateful bigots"?). Of course the things you describe happen at Universities but they happen outside Universities too and a much greater proportion of students than you give credit for don't partake to any kind of excess. It'd be perfectly possible for you to go to University for an actual education (and maybe some welcome personal development too).

That's not to say you have to go to University of course but you do need to make sure you're rejecting it for the right reasons and with all of the relevant information (rather than assumption and stereotypes) to hand. You clearly need a plan of some kind though. Even if you don't want a career (though I wouldn't reject that out of hand either), you need to be able to support yourself unless you plan to leech off your parents until (if) you find a husband willing and able to support you instead. Some form of education or training would be beneficial regardless of where you expect to and where you actually end up

 

[Rival]

As a former University student, I take your characterisation as a gross insult (how do you feel when people say "most Christians are hateful bigots"?). Of course the things you describe happen at Universities but they happen outside Universities too and a much greater proportion of students than you give credit for don't partake to any kind of excess. It'd be perfectly possible for you to go to University for an actual education (and maybe some welcome personal development too).

That's not to say you have to go to University of course but you do need to make sure you're rejecting it for the right reasons and with all of the relevant information (rather than assumption and stereotypes) to hand. You clearly need a plan of some kind though. Even if you don't want a career (though I wouldn't reject that out of hand either), you need to be able to support yourself unless you plan to leech off your parents until (if) you find a husband willing and able to support you instead. Some form of education or training would be beneficial regardless of where you expect to and where you actually end up

Hey,

It's not just that. I'm not very good at the whole independent thing and I don't even so much as have a bank account yet, mostly because of my mother. She has mental problems and it has caused me a lot of problems myself, I have a lot of trouble adapting. I can't stand being in cities; I've lived my entire life in the remote country-side and for most of my life, in a little hamlet with at most 350 people.

Sorry I offended you, but it's true. I don't really like the common folk. Even the so-called Christian groups are mostly full of cultural Christians who behave just like atheists (I don't mean that as an insult). I had a lot of trouble at school with people bullying me and such, and it's left a very lasting impression. I don't get along well with girls, as most of them seem to think it's their job to doll up everyday to attract men to fall in lust with them and this disgusts me no end.

I would be all right with a little job to have some income, but a career... Well that makes my work my life. Also, I don't believe I can have a career and successfully rear children at the same time. I don't believe in daycare, or thinking that school will raise your kids for you. I would need to be there for them until they are about 12 and I can trust them to look after themselves.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hello RF Journal,

This year I am going back to Sixth Form College (dear American, Canadian users, Google this, because it's not Uni). I am there for two years as usual for a student and then most of those students will go on to University. I am hell bent on not going. Yet everyone wants me to.

It's because, in most people's terms, I guess I'm holier-than-thou. Yep, I'm admitting it.

I don't know about anywhere else, but Universities here are less centres of learning and more of human youth at its worst.

For a start, I don't drink, I'm waiting until I'm married, I'm a strong Christian, I can't stand parties, I don't make friends easily, I'm outspoken and a deep thinker. To contrast, most Uni students enjoy drinking to get hammered, sex like prostitutes, party like it's 2000 and have large circles of friends who aren't really friends and can be dropped at a moment's notice. I am truly sorry, dear proletariat, but I don't like your ways.

Also, Uni sounds very stressful. I generally don't become stressed and don't worry before exams, but I really don't like being around stressy people either. It does my head in. No offence.Uni as well seems to teach very liberal thought, where I am very conservative.

Also, I'm not hell bent on having a career. I just want to be a wife and mother, homemaker if you will. I feel that going to Uni may ultimately be a waste of my time and effort. I could get along being a teacher, but really it's not my ideal lifestyle. I gravitate strongly towards English based subjects, (history, philosophy, English, psychology, etc and also good at languages) but far, far away from maths, physics, chemistry, medicine, etc.

But going to Uni just seems to be "the done thing" now and it's hard to find jobs in this country. I live up North and trust me it's difficult to find anything more than stacking shelves.

My hobbies include learning foreign languages, writing (mostly erotic) novels, poetry, etc, going for long walks, Church, collecting Bibles, Bible study and reading philosophical works.

Damn it.

Do what calls to you.
I even encouraged my own daughter to drop out of UofM because she disliked it so much.
School isn't everything.

Btw, I didn't drink much in college.
But when I went out with friends, there was pressure to drink beer.
I just ordered orange juice.
(I didn't care for cheap crap beer found in bars back then.)

 

[HonestJoe]

You might not mean to be insulting but you are being, repeatedly. I honestly feel you have some deep-seated issues with people that you should seek some kind of professional help with. Otherwise, I fear you'll struggle whatever direction the next phase of your life takes, including your preference as wife, mother and homemaker.

 

[Rival]

You might not mean to be insulting but you are being, repeatedly. I honestly feel you have some deep-seated issues with people that you should seek some kind of professional help with. Otherwise, I fear you'll struggle whatever direction the next phase of your life takes, including your preference as wife, mother and homemaker.

What did I say that insulted you?

 

[Kirran]

Other issues are of course different, but as a current student in a British university, I will say that your characterisation of university students is by no means accurate. Yes, there are many students who do drink a lot, and some of them will have quite a bit of sex (leaving aside the promiscuity=prostitution comparison). But this isn't like some universal thing. I went through my entire second year of university without going out to a party or drinking alcohol even once. Also without having sex, or feeling any pressure whatsoever to do so. Also, those friends which I had were mostly pretty long-lasting, but weren't hugely numerous.

There are many ways you can engage with university life without buying into that kind of lifestyle, you just need to find the right places, the right activities and so on. Not very hard, especially in a big university. There'll be plenty of non-drinking abstinent conservative Christians around the place. Some are probably even into erotic literature to boot Uni takes all sorts.

The overt image, especially of people just starting uni, is of drinking and partying and trying to have sex. But this is 1) by no means at all universal and 2) something that declines in any case over time among many of those who do start out with such a lifestyle.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Languages are good, and you can tutor people in languages as a side job, do babysitting, raise animals and things like that. You can do a lot of business on the internet these days, and who knows but living in the countryside may be better in the long run. It sucks not to have access to a bank account, but as long as you have someone to buy things for you its survivable. You can probably get a free empty checking account, but to get a credit line requires some initial savings. Many banks offer free advice and will give you a nice tour of their bank and free education about how checking works etc. I don't know if the banks do that where you live, but here they are begging people to come in and love giving financial advice. (I notice in your picture you have a doggy. You can probably hire him out to pull sleds if you're ever in financial trouble!)

I used to feel the same way about university and so didn't attend though I remember visiting some campuses and seeing a lot of crazy antics, a lot of just crazy out of control freaky stuff. I felt the same way at my community college. Its unfortunate though in a way, because in community college there aren't many clubs, and I really could have benefited from being in a club. When I went to visit one university students were selling some kind of underwear with Atheism stamped on them out on the campus, and it just seemed like the place would be designed to torture my religion out of me. So I didn't go. I probably should have though, because it was a campus of tens of thousands of students in the South. My kind were there torturing the atheists (probably trying to hand them flyers and Bibles) until they began to sell atheist underwear in the naked sun. I just didn't know how things worked, and I got wrapped up in first impressions. I could have been right there with my fellow fundies, persecuting the atheists and being persecuted in return.

If you do go to university, I recommend going to a big one, because you're likely to find a small group to your liking and that accepts you. One friend isn't enough since other people always have other things to do. With only one friend its a lot like having one friend once every two weeks. Its better to have lots of similar people, as many as possible; because friends take a lot of effort to make. At a university there are a lot of kinds of people, so its easier to find friends that suit your tastes; but in a small place with only a few hundred people you're lucky to find one other person. At university if you like t-shirts with Little Shop of Horror on the front plus Burt Reynolds on the back, then there's a club for that. There is a club for almost everyone, even an atheist underwear sales club probably. So that is one positive thing about universities that they have a lot of kinds of people. So ironically its at a large university that you sometimes get a small town feel, while at a smaller one you have to make sure you fit with the population first before you go. Sometimes people can't find friends in university, though. There's always at least 1% that don't, and their entire university experience is very lonely.

Something to know about university is that most students have their parents help. Their parents send them money, visit them, help them move their stuff, help them understand what university is about. Those are the students whose parents have a lot of common sense. Then there are the other students who go to university with the clothes on their back and the permission to call home and say how fantastic they are. Another thing to know about university is that it favors young people and freshmen over transfers and old people. If you transfer or if you aren't a child, you may be expected to be transcendently telepathic about many things, meaning there are lots of gotchas that all the freshmen will know that no one will tell you about. It feels a little like missing out on puberty. You will be abandonded on your tour of the university or your guide will not know what to tell you, and all the usual instructions will not apply to your situation. People will assume you are a professor. Its a good argument for starting in as a freshman. The third thing to know about university is that it will teach you any subject whether or not the knowledge is likely to be useful financially, because universities are holistic. They treat the whole being. This is not a bug but a feature of universities that they always claim to guide students but never can do so in one specific area such as financial success. Guiding students is more like an ideal. Regardless of all the babble that people may say if you go to university not knowing what your career path should be, then you likely will leave university still not knowing. True.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

My Grandson has just graduated from university with a first in linguistics. He has always been a church goer and server. At uni he joined a christian group and various other clubs an societies.
In september he continues with a MA also in linguistics.
He has decided to also study to become an Anglican priest ( OLM, non stipendury) after taking advice from a priest in our church, who did the same thing, and now works as a priest part time.

Universitis are made up of all types of people. Essentially it is a place to study and grow intellectually.
what else you do is down to you.

 

[Kirran]

The unis in Manchester are associated with a very nice chaplaincy, including a great number of Christian chaplains, many of them priests

So lots of religious stuff going on there. And the Christian Society seems a pretty big deal too.

 

[AnnaCzereda]

The university is fun. I had wonderful time there. There was hard work for sure but there was pleasure gained from studying things that interested me and also meeting new people. Try it, just choose the subjects that really interest you. You don't have to give in to the peer pressure and attend parties if you don't want to.

Choosing your study doesn't necessarily go together with choosing your future job. You can change your plans for the future many times yet. The time spent at the university is the time you can spend on reflecting on these things. And nobody says you can't be just a wife and mother after finishing the university. You can treat your studies as a hobby.

 

[SomeRandom]

I would say do whatever makes you happy.

However......You can say all the things you said about University students and apply them to High School/College students as well. Or hell just youth in general. That's just how youth acts, it's how they've always acted. Rebellion and experimentation is a healthy normal part of the adolescent development process. It's how we become our own people as adults.
I don't mean to offend or insult you when I say this. You kind of need to get out of your shell and into the world. Even if you find the grimier aspects unsettling (I second the advice about seeking professional help.)

It's great that you hold these beliefs, no one is asking you to change as a person. But we can't live in our own little world forever. Even the Amish send their kids away to live in the secular world for a while, though I'd certainly argue that they perhaps should come up with a gentler strategy.

Nonetheless, University/Tafe/Work experience what have you, they're not just there to get a fancy piece of paper so you can show it off to a potential employer. They can also serve as an opportunity to broaden one's horizons, to explore/encounter other points of view and to challenge oneself mentally and even spiritually. We all live in this world and part of growing up is learning how to live alongside other people who will inevitably disagree with you. Even tempt you. We all have to learn independence, I sympathize with your struggles as my own family's health issues continue to affect my journey towards independence.

But with adulthood comes certain expectations and responsibilities. You say you want to be a homemaker, that's wonderful. But how will you manage to be a homemaker when you force yourself into a perpetual state of childhood like this?

 

[Rival]

I would say do whatever makes you happy.

However......You can say all the things you said about University students and apply them to High School/College students as well. Or hell just youth in general. That's just how youth acts, it's how they've always acted. Rebellion and experimentation is a healthy normal part of the adolescent development process. It's how we become our own people as adults.
I don't mean to offend or insult you when I say this. You kind of need to get out of your shell and into the world. Even if you find the grimier aspects unsettling (I second the advice about seeking professional help.)

No, I don't believe for a second that this is how people discover themselves, or that it's healthy and normal. Many have gone on to ruin owing to these behaviours. My dad has been an alcoholic since he was 18 and he's now 43. I didn't need to rebel in order to discover myself; none of my friends did either. They were all straight A students who did very well for themselves without any of these things. The clinch might be that they all had good parents. Whereas my mother is a borderline personality with serious psychopathic traits and the man she married was a paedophile. Not good parents.

Second, I may sound secluded on here, but I actually am out of my shell lol. I have seen things, I've been to many places and met many people. I love mostly meeting foreign people.

It's great that you hold these beliefs, no one is asking you to change as a person. But we can't live in our own little world forever. Even the Amish send their kids away to live in the secular world for a while, though I'd certainly argue that they perhaps should come up with a gentler strategy.

Nonetheless, University/Tafe/Work experience what have you, they're not just there to get a fancy piece of paper so you can show it off to a potential employer. They can also serve as an opportunity to broaden one's horizons, to explore/encounter other points of view and to challenge oneself mentally and even spiritually. We all live in this world and part of growing up is learning how to live alongside other people who will inevitably disagree with you. Even tempt you. We all have to learn independence, I sympathize with your struggles as my own family's health issues continue to affect my journey towards independence.

I can live among people who disagree with me just fine. It's when they shove it in my face. For example, when I was at college last time they had all sorts of gay-affirming posters up, queer-straight alliance, feminist flyers etc. It was constantly being shoved in your face "Be liberal! Be liberal!" It was at least annoying, at worst persecuting, because when anyone spoke out about how one-sided it was, we were hushed. Eventually one group managed to find space to put up Jesus posters though, which was good.

But with adulthood comes certain expectations and responsibilities. You say you want to be a homemaker, that's wonderful. But how will you manage to be a homemaker when you force yourself into a perpetual state of childhood like this?

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here. I could go to Uni and suffer through and learn to be independent, but I just don't want to. There are other avenues, I understand, but my interests seem to limit me to Uni as opposed to apprenticeships or some such thing.

Thanks tho.

 

[SomeRandom]

No, I don't believe for a second that this is how people discover themselves, or that it's healthy and normal. Many have gone on to ruin owing to these behaviours. My dad has been an alcoholic since he was 18 and he's now 43. I didn't need to rebel in order to discover myself; none of my friends did either. They were all straight A students who did very well for themselves without any of these things. The clinch might be that they all had good parents. Whereas my mother is a borderline personality with serious psychopathic traits and the man she married was a paedophile. Not good parents.

.

I am sorry for your parental situation. It must be very hard on you.

So you've always agreed with literally everything your parents/teachers have ever said and continue to do so? You've never once had a single solitary independent thought or opinion ever? If you have, congratulations you have partaken in natural normal healthy rebellion. If not........I'd be a little concerned on your behalf, if you'll allow me.
That's what I mean by rebellion. You don't need to be a stereotypical party animal to be rebellious, mate. Ideas are often the most rebellious things of all.

Speaking of stereotypes, I know people studying for their PHD who smoke weed. Hell Teachers, just in general, have quite the reputation for drinking like fish. (I know a few English teachers myself and they certainly live up to their rep. Also their minds are often filthy.) And don't get me started on Med and Vet students. My god! Go for a night out with one of them and you don't know what you're going to do!! Smart people, mate, are often the craziest!

Second, I may sound secluded on here, but I actually am out of my shell lol. I have seen things, I've been to many places and met many people. I love mostly meeting foreign people.

Don't lose your sense of adventure.

I can live among people who disagree with me just fine. It's when they shove it in my face. For example, when I was at college last time they had all sorts of gay-affirming posters up, queer-straight alliance, feminist flyers etc. It was constantly being shoved in your face "Be liberal! Be liberal!" It was at least annoying, at worst persecuting, because when anyone spoke out about how one-sided it was, we were hushed. Eventually one group managed to find space to put up Jesus posters though, which was good.

I'll leave this one alone. I have gay friends and they were actually persecuted. That's all I will say.

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here. I could go to Uni and suffer through and learn to be independent, but I just don't want to. There are other avenues, I understand, but my interests seem to limit me to Uni as opposed to apprenticeships or some such thing.

So you're caught between having intellectual interests and just not wanting to go to Uni? Take an online Uni course then. We don't live in the 90s anymore. These days you don't even have to physically go into Uni to... well go to Uni. Online courses are often far more relaxed and there's far less stress that way. I went to Uni through the "back way" so to speak and I did it all online. If you do end up attending physically but are worried about the stress, just do it part time. It will take twice as long as full time, sure, but the deadlines won't be so in your face.

 

[Rival]

I am sorry for your parental situation. It must be very hard on you.

So you've always agreed with literally everything your parents/teachers have ever said and continue to do so? You've never once had a single solitary independent thought or opinion ever? If you have, congratulations you have partaken in natural normal healthy rebellion. If not........I'd be a little concerned on your behalf, if you'll allow me.
That's what I mean by rebellion. You don't need to be a stereotypical party animal to be rebellious, mate. Ideas are often the most rebellious things of all.

I wouldn't consider that rebellion. Disagreeing with illogic is common sense, not rebellion, haha. Healthy debate and disagreement is good. Rebellion carries strong connotations for me and conjures up images of emo kids ragging about how awful their parents are because they won't let them go to the Metallica concert and stay in a hotel all by themselves when they're 13. Rebellion is smoking tobacco when your parents told you not to - and they were right! It's running away from home because dad said you can't watch Saw IV because you're 12.

 

[SomeRandom]

I wouldn't consider that rebellion. Disagreeing with illogic is common sense, not rebellion, haha. Healthy debate and disagreement is good. Rebellion carries strong connotations for me and conjures up images of emo kids ragging about how awful their parents are because they won't let them go to the Metallica concert and stay in a hotel all by themselves when they're 13. Rebellion is smoking tobacco when your parents told you not to - and they were right! It's running away from home because dad said you can't watch Saw IV because you're 12.

Ahh, you claim to be interested in writing and yet say this? You disappoint me grasshopper! Only kidding.

Flowers of Evil by Baudelaire. Did you know that this was banned and the author arrested?!

The Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck. Did you know that this shocked audiences so much that they practically boycotted it en mass?

Tropic of Cancer by Henry Miller. Did you know that at the time this was released the Pennsylvania Supreme Court Justice Michael Musmanno wrote (Tropic of Cancer) is, "not a book. It is a cesspool, an open sewer, a pit of putrefaction, a slimy gathering of all that is rotten in the debris of human depravity.”
But modern classic author George Orwell later called it "one of the most important books of the 1930s."

The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde. The first edition was reportedly so unseemly that the author had to pretty much rewrite it. (Honestly it was probably for the best, the second version is much better.)

Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury. Ironically usually found in the top 100 banned books of the year lists.

I could list these all day, I really could.

Do you know why books (among other art pieces) are often objected to, banned, complained about or otherwise censored?
Because ideas can be very frightening to people. They can often challenge the status quo. Now I'm not one to say that books can change the world or whatever. That's far too much of a stretch. But have you ever noticed that most if not all of the most frequently challenged books are also often the ones with the most enlightening things to say?

We lit types can wax lyrical about the dangerous nature ideas have inherently. That's not all just pretentious blather. There's some kernel of truth in there.

Side note, emo kids nowadays listen to Metallica?

 

[Rival]

Ahh, you claim to be interested in writing and yet say this? You disappoint me grasshopper! Only kidding.

Baudelaire, Flowers of Evil. Did you know that this was banned and the author arrested?!

The Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck. Did you know that this shocked audiences so much that they practically boycotted it en mass?

Tropic of Cancer by Henry Miller. Did you know that at the time this was released the Pennsylvania Supreme Court Justice Michael Musmanno wrote (Tropic of Cancer) is, "not a book. It is a cesspool, an open sewer, a pit of putrefaction, a slimy gathering of all that is rotten in the debris of human depravity.”
But modern classic author George Orwell later called it "one of the most important books of the 1930s."

The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde. The first edition was reportedly so unseemly that the author had to pretty much rewrite it. (Honestly it was probably for the best, the second version is much better.)

Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury. Ironically usually found in the top 100 banned books of the year lists.

I could list these all day, I really could.

Do you know why books (among other art pieces) are often objected to, banned, complained about or otherwise censored?
Because ideas can be very frightening to people. They can often challenge the status quo. Now I'm not one to say that books can change the world or whatever. That's far too much of a stretch. But have you ever noticed that most if not all of the most frequently challenged books are also often the ones with the most enlightening things to say?

We lit types can wax lyrical about the dangerous nature ideas have inherently. That's not all just pretentious blather. There's some kernel of truth in there.

Side note, emo kids listen to Metallica?

Yes, I know about those books, but that wasn't a rebellion against parents or teachers lol. It wasn't teenage BS. I've been writing sadomasochistic stuff since I was 12 and I never considered that a rebellion.

 

[SomeRandom]

Yes, I know about those books, but that wasn't a rebellion against parents or teachers lol. It wasn't teenage BS. I've been writing sadomasochistic stuff since I was 12 and I never considered that a rebellion.

Rebellion isn't just something bratty teenagers do when they're bored. Rebellion happens all the time. The civil rights movement was essentially a large scale rebellion. The Hippy counterculture was in essence founded upon rebellion. Any major social upheaval or counterculture movement is actually people being rebellious. Some of the most revered authors/artists are actually rebels. For example Oscar Wilde, who built his entire persona around being a rebel.
Rebelliousness is actually sometimes a good thing.

 

[Rival]

Rebellion isn't just something bratty teenagers do when they're bored. Rebellion happens all the time. The civil rights movement was essentially a large scale rebellion. The Hippy counterculture was in essence founded upon rebellion. Any major social upheaval is actually a large rebellion. Some of the most revered authors/artists are actually rebels. For example Oscar Wilde who built his entire persona around rebellion.

I never said I had anything against rebellion, just to put that here.

Yes, but there's intellectual rebellion and then there is bratty teenage rebellion. The second one includes those things such as drinking to excess, shooting heroin and so on. This is pretty anti-intellectual and very damaging.

The group I'm complaining about aren't writing the next Fanny Hill.