Universal Healthcare

[Magic Man]

I know, right. Well, not all people understand that there are more than 1 or 2 sides to a social problem, so I don't expect them to acknowledge the facts anytime soon.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. You're ignoring facts, and dismissing some of them as opinions, when in fact they're actually facts. That's not a good sign.

 

[Magic Man]

And less profitable too.

With the incentive to make great money removed, do you see as many surgeons going to school and working as an intern for all those years?

Why wouldn't they be making great money?

Oh yeah, how will they pay their student debt?

Probably out of the mounds of money they'd make.

No attitude, just saying........will people clear this large hurdle once the incentive to do so is removed?

I'm just doing the math here, less money to be made and more folks to be serviced with less folks doing what is necessary to be qualified.

Will all these low paid doctors with high DIR's still have to worry about being sued for malpractice?

If I am a million in debt and barely have a six figure income, would I even purchase malpractice insurance? I mean what are you going to take away from me anyway?

Just saying.........

You're also basing all of this on the unfounded premise that for some reason doctors wouldn't make a lot of money with universal healthcare. Do you have any reason for saying that?

 

[Magic Man]

Don't forget teachers too. We all know public education is working so well. Thats why they come to America and start a practice right? You do realize that government run high school does little to prepair our children for college right? Please say you are not in favor of dumbing down our colleges to high school performance levels are you?

We have been posting together much too long to be trolling one another.

Is it really being obtuse believing you can remove incentive and increase the work load with no adverse affects?

Would you be satisfied with a lower caliber of health care service just to save money or do you believe most doctors would come to work no matter what the pay scale was?

Most doctors are going to be fine without their fancy cars and country club memberships? The big house will have to be put on the market?

Ah, the old "But government sucks at this other stuff it does, so we shouldn't let it do this new thing" argument. Here's an idea. Why don't we get the government to do everything better? Because there are problems with the schools doesn't mean we should not let government take on anything else. It means we should get the schools doing better and also have government take on new stuff that it should be taking on.

 

[Reverend Rick]

You're also basing all of this on the unfounded premise that for some reason doctors wouldn't make a lot of money with universal health care. Do you have any reason for saying that?

Matt, let's keep this simple. I replied to post #104.

This is where it was mentioned that heath care should be wholesale and not retail.

My premise is not unfounded that doctors would not make a lot of money if they sold their services wholesale.

If you have any issues, you should address post #104 and explain why universal health care is not wholesale health care. That would be a good place to start unless you believe universal health care is wholesale health care.

If that is the case, we can continue this discussion.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Ah, the old "But government sucks at this other stuff it does, so we shouldn't let it do this new thing" argument. Here's an idea. Why don't we get the government to do everything better? Because there are problems with the schools doesn't mean we should not let government take on anything else. It means we should get the schools doing better and also have government take on new stuff that it should be taking on.

The reason we should not let the government do everything better would be the same reason we do not lend a million dollars to a person with a 330 credit score.

The government is too big already. It spends over half again of every dollar it takes in.

I have an idea, lets force congress from both sides to balance the budget first before we grow any bigger.

It would be necessary to cut entitlements, decrease the military and raise taxes.

When we can get our representatives to quit squabbling and work together, we should address health care again.

The first thing we should do is abolish Obama care and actually let our president implement the health care system he actually wants, a single payer system.

Everyone tries to demonise my opinions and tell me I am debating heavier than air flight when I actually want to fix the system we have first and then expand it.

The system is medicare. Why do we need all these different health care systems?

You all accuse me of reinventing the wheel.

Actually my position is I oppose any government program.

That said, if we are going to have national health care, lets have a good sound system.

If we are going to call it Obama care, lets let Obama design the system himself instead of this unconstitutional mandated cluster truck of a health care system that neither side likes.

In other words, if we are going to do this, lets do it right instead of having another stupid inefficient government failure.

This system has to be funded, efficient, sustainable and realistic.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Why not put up all the Universal health care systems used in other Countries and have a referrendum.

 

[Magic Man]

My premise is not unfounded that doctors would not make a lot of money if they sold their services wholesale.

Doctors could still make a lot of money with a universal healthcare system. However, as has been pointed out, there are a lot of things that go into their salaries. For instance, in France, a student goes directly from high school into medical school, and as was brought up before, all of that is paid for. So, instead of going through 4 years of college, and then 4 years of medical school and racking up $150,000 in debt before you start working, you study medicine and intern for about 8 years and rack up no debt.

It's a huge difference starting out with $150,000 in debt and $0 in debt.

 

[Magic Man]

The reason we should not let the government do everything better would be the same reason we do not lend a million dollars to a person with a 330 credit score.

Sorry, doesn't work. The reason we should let the governement do certain things that it should is that the government should do those things, and we just have to make sure they do them well. A government can do schools and healthcare well. We can see that in many other countries. The question is just how to get ours to do those things well.

Actually my position is I oppose any government program.

Yes, that is part of the problem. It also causes problems that this is a common mindset in America. We see the government as the enemy and don't think it can do anything right. Part of that comes from the fact that our government doesn't do a great job with many things. But we have the power to change that. We can see in other countries that governments can get things right and work well for their citizens.

That said, if we are going to have national health care, lets have a good sound system.

If we are going to call it Obama care, lets let Obama design the system himself instead of this unconstitutional mandated cluster truck of a health care system that neither side likes.

In other words, if we are going to do this, lets do it right instead of having another stupid inefficient government failure.

This system has to be funded, efficient, sustainable and realistic.

I'm glad we agree here. That's the whole point of this thread, is to discuss the merits or problems of universal healthcare. Although, "we" are not going to call it Obamacare. Only conservatives call it that because it sounds like a pejorative.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Doctors could still make a lot of money with a universal healthcare system. However, as has been pointed out, there are a lot of things that go into their salaries. For instance, in France, a student goes directly from high school into medical school, and as was brought up before, all of that is paid for. So, instead of going through 4 years of college, and then 4 years of medical school and racking up $150,000 in debt before you start working, you study medicine and intern for about 8 years and rack up no debt.

It's a huge difference starting out with $150,000 in debt and $0 in debt.

Perhaps we could forgive the good doctors student debt by having them work for free here and there for a period of time.

It could be simple, a few hours a night or a weekend a month, something like that.

One would think it should be easy to improve a system that is inefficient and over priced.

 

[Alceste]

Why not put up all the Universal health care systems used in other Countries and have a referrendum.

I have never heard of one single country with universal health care deciding to to go back to a private system. As long as you still have some way for rich people to feel like they're getting preferential treatment or queue jumping by paying for certain services out of pocket or going to foreign specialists, everybody's happy.

 

[Alceste]

Perhaps we could forgive the good doctors student debt by having them work for free here and there for a period of time.

It could be simple, a few hours a night or a weekend a month, something like that.

One would think it should be easy to improve a system that is inefficient and over priced.

It should be, but the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries own your government. Their ideological comrades in arms own your news media. They will never allow a universal health care system in the US, and never stop trying to brainwash Americans to fear it. You might need to take away the constitutional rights (bribery as speech, corporate personhood) of corporations before you can fix anything.

 

[Magic Man]

Perhaps we could forgive the good doctors student debt by having them work for free here and there for a period of time.

It could be simple, a few hours a night or a weekend a month, something like that.

That's a thought. I'm not sure a minor approach like that would go very far, but it's at least a step in the right direction. It may be that we have to start with something along those lines to get to our destination.

One would think it should be easy to improve a system that is inefficient and over priced.

Yes, I think it is "easy", in the sense that the problem is easy to fix. The real problem, though, is getting to a point of being able to institute the fix. That requires getting past the big pharm companies and the huge push by corporations and doctors.

 

[Reverend Rick]

It should be, but the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries own your government. Their ideological comrades in arms own your news media. They will never allow a universal health care system in the US, and never stop trying to brainwash Americans to fear it. You might need to take away the constitutional rights (bribery as speech, corporate personhood) of corporations before you can fix anything.

Here is the thing Alceste, if we want a sucessful funded system, everyone will need to contribute into the system.

There will need to be an incentive to not be wasteful. In other words everyone needs to understand this stuff costs money, it's not free health care.

So many times you hear of people taking an ambulance into the city and walking away from the hospital to save cab fare.

People in many countries pay 8% of their income for health care. If that percentage went up or down when we address waste and abuse, the system could be an improvement to health care.

If you will allow me to be brutally honest here, many folks are scared that a huge influx of health care recipients will reduce the level of services currently provided to them.

I think of things from a health care workers perspective. They will have to work longer hours and will be tired. More work will have to be done with the infrastructure we currently have. That means longer waits and over worked employees.

Surely you can see this is going to be an issue right?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I have never heard of one single country with universal health care deciding to to go back to a private system. As long as you still have some way for rich people to feel like they're getting preferential treatment or queue jumping by paying for certain services out of pocket or going to foreign specialists, everybody's happy.

I was suggesting that the USA have a referendum to chose a universal system from all those that work.

The rich will always be conspicuous spenders.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Here is the thing Alceste, if we want a sucessful funded system, everyone will need to contribute into the system.

There will need to be an incentive to not be wasteful. In other words everyone needs to understand this stuff costs money, it's not free health care.

So many times you hear of people taking an ambulance into the city and walking away from the hospital to save cab fare.

People in many countries pay 8% of their income for health care. If that percentage went up or down when we address waste and abuse, the system could be an improvement to health care.

If you will allow me to be brutally honest here, many folks are scared that a huge influx of health care recipients will reduce the level of services currently provided to them.

I think of things from a health care workers perspective. They will have to work longer hours and will be tired. More work will have to be done with the infrastructure we currently have. That means longer waits and over worked employees.

Surely you can see this is going to be an issue right?

These were all issues when we started our universal health care systems.
We overcame them. are the Americans less able in some way ?

Most of those problems are because your health system is so costly and inefficient now. If you leave it it will get worse not better.

 

[Magic Man]

So many times you hear of people taking an ambulance into the city and walking away from the hospital to save cab fare.

You do? I've never heard of that. Not that I don't think it happens, but I definitely don't think it happens a significant amount of times.

People in many countries pay 8% of their income for health care. If that percentage went up or down when we address waste and abuse, the system could be an improvement to health care.

8%? Where did you get that number?

Surely you can see this is going to be an issue right?

Of course there will be issues. Making such a huge change is always going to come with major issues. But as others have said, if other countries similar to ours can do it, we should be able to also.

 

[Crystallas]

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. You're ignoring facts, and dismissing some of them as opinions, when in fact they're actually facts. That's not a good sign.

I'm not ignoring facts any more than you are. Total cost per total cost, the costs are the same. Yet, we get stuck footing the bill for the majority of research and development. If you want to be biased, then that's your problem, but at least factor all of the numbers, and not just the very surface, combine the multiplier, and let's see who is getting screwed and why? It's much deeper than just the surface, MUCH deeper. That's why I don't support this extremist selfish system of a one-size fits all mentality. Force your views and policy onto someone else, I am going to at least leave you with a choice.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm not ignoring facts any more than you are.

I was responding to your comment where you called a fact an opinion.

 

[lunakilo]

8%? Where did you get that number?

That was me. The danish health tax is 8%

 

[lunakilo]

If you will allow me to be brutally honest here, many folks are scared that a huge influx of health care recipients will reduce the level of services currently provided to them.

I think of things from a health care workers perspective. They will have to work longer hours and will be tired. More work will have to be done with the infrastructure we currently have. That means longer waits and over worked employees.

Surely you can see this is going to be an issue right?

People will not get sick more often because of this.

If there is a huge influx of health care recipientsthen it must be because some people didn't have access to health care before, and in that case you would have been right to change the system so that they were able to get the health care they neded.