Universal Healthcare

[Alceste]

This:



The ghost saying that universal healthcare is the road to hell is a lie, pure and simple.

Tell me about it. I can't imagine why anyone would be against just going to the doctor, getting treated, and forgetting about it. I mean, really. Is an ideological attachment to the superiority of the free market worth paying tens of thousands - if not hundreds of thousands - of dollars out of pocket for necessary help in a life or death situation?

I say no. When you are sick - especially with a serious illness - the best system is one that doesn't add severe financial hardship to the stress of facing death. The free market can suck it.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Tell me about it. I can't imagine why anyone would be against just going to the doctor, getting treated, and forgetting about it. I mean, really. Is an ideological attachment to the superiority of the free market worth paying tens of thousands - if not hundreds of thousands - of dollars out of pocket for necessary help in a life or death situation?

I say no. When you are sick - especially with a serious illness - the best system is one that doesn't add severe financial hardship to the stress of facing death. The free market can suck it.

Here is how it works in Norway.
About two years ago I contracted the swine flu during the 'epidemic', an occupational hazard considering I work at a school with hundreds of children.
So naturally I did what the doctor ordered and decided to stay at home for the prescribed week. After all, in most of the cases there was nothing to worry about, and generally people just got a heavy case of flu and that was that.
Not so in my case.
After five days I was having problems breathing and thus I called up a friend of mine to come pick me up and take me to the doctor, seeing as I didn't quite trust myself in the condition I was in. The doctor took a lot of tests, including an x-ray of my chest and sent to a nearby hospital. As it turned out, I had also contracted a lung infection on top of the swine flu and my immune system was having problems keeping up with all of this.

At the hospital I was put under surveillance and being fed oxygen to try and keep the levels up in my blood, but alas, they kept falling, and after about 24 hours the doctor came in and told me that they had to put me under to try and keep me as stable as possible while they treated my infection. And so they put me in an artificial coma.
I stayed under for about a week while they were feeding me at least eight different types of antibiotics, and I had to stay hooked to the respirator for an additional week with 24 hour surveillance. When the infection finally let go they kept me at the hospital for an additional week just to make sure, making my stay a total of three weeks before they were sure I was going to be okay.

Then I signed the release forms and left.
I paid...nothing.
As in zero dollars.

In addition I was on sick leave for two months to recuperate, with full pay the whole time.

So, yeah, I can attest to the system working.

 

[Alceste]

Here is how it works in Norway.
About two years ago I contracted the swine flu during the 'epidemic', an occupational hazard considering I work at a school with hundreds of children.
So naturally I did what the doctor ordered and decided to stay at home for the prescribed week. After all, in most of the cases there was nothing to worry about, and generally people just got a heavy case of flu and that was that.
Not so in my case.
After five days I was having problems breathing and thus I called up a friend of mine to come pick me up and take me to the doctor, seeing as I didn't quite trust myself in the condition I was in. The doctor took a lot of tests, including an x-ray of my chest and sent to a nearby hospital. As it turned out, I had also contracted a lung infection on top of the swine flu and my immune system was having problems keeping up with all of this.

At the hospital I was put under surveillance and being fed oxygen to try and keep the levels up in my blood, but alas, they kept falling, and after about 24 hours the doctor came in and told me that they had to put me under to try and keep me as stable as possible while they treated my infection. And so they put me in an artificial coma.
I stayed under for about a week while they were feeding me at least eight different types of antibiotics, and I had to stay hooked to the respirator for an additional week with 24 hour surveillance. When the infection finally let go they kept me at the hospital for an additional week just to make sure, making my stay a total of three weeks before they were sure I was going to be okay.

Then I signed the release forms and left.
I paid...nothing.
As in zero dollars.

In addition I was on sick leave for two months to recuperate, with full pay the whole time.

So, yeah, I can attest to the system working.

My grandfather was in and out of heart surgery and leukemia treatments for the last ten years of his life. He had one surgery that lasted 16 hours and took months to recover from. First they thought he wouldn't make it, then they were sure he'd be a vegetable, then they thought he'd be in a wheel chair for the rest of his life, but he got back on his feet and was out golfing again a few months later. He got an extra 8 years of life from the operation.

He died about ten years ago. My grandmother still has the house, the car, the investments, the savings, the pension - the life they worked so hard together to build was not wiped out by co-pays, deductibles, prescriptions and non-insured services. Apart from the tragedy of losing him in the end, there wasn't an additional tragedy of losing everything that reminds her of him in the effort to save him.

So I can attest to the system working too!

 

[Magic Man]

First, you need to sort through the problems. We can't continue to simplify a complex issue, by bundling all of healthcare into one mass.

Each issue within healthcare has unique problems that require many solutions, not one, and certainly not a central planned solution made by those who aren't necessarily best suited to make a solution for the majority. Once you have the government regulating the solutions, you also close out other, often better, ideas from entering the industries. We also don't eliminate the flaws just by writing a new law or regulation. The market itself provides the solutions that drastically cut the negatives, and it does this by introducing alternatives, options, growth in industry, as well as the much lost, doctor patient relationship.

I can not stress this enough, we have to sort through the problems, not bundle them together.

OK, but how would you fix the problem of tens of millions of Americans not having access to regular healthcare?

 

[Valjean]

I don't support a government having a monopoly over it's people in any way. Especially when it comes to basic rights of life, such as what you do with your body, and seeking help from other consenting adults, regardless of certification or license.
I also don't feel that an insurance mandate = Universal Healthcare.

Universal health coverage doesn't necessarily involve any government monopoly at all, Crystallas, 'though I can see where the socialized British NHS and American VA might be considered monopolistic, in a way.
What most reformers are advocating is a continuation of private, independent hospitals. The change would be to eliminate the insurance company clerks dictating what treatments will be covered and letting the doctors treat based on medical, not financial considerations. In a single payer system there would be no-one standing between you and your doctor.
The government's only role would be to pay for what was determined to be medically optimal.

First, you need to sort through the problems. We can't continue to simplify a complex issue, by bundling all of healthcare into one mass.

Each issue within healthcare has unique problems that require many solutions, not one, and certainly not a central planned solution made by those who aren't necessarily best suited to make a solution for the majority. Once you have the government regulating the solutions, you also close out other, often better, ideas from entering the industries. We also don't eliminate the flaws just by writing a new law or regulation.

This "government regulation" thing is just propaganda. The government won't regulate. It will just pay. The fact is, we already have regulation -- by insurance companies. Why would you prefer your heath care to be dictated by a private, for-profit company whose 1ry interest is minimizing cost and, if possible, denying care entirely?

The market itself provides the solutions that drastically cut the negatives, and it does this by introducing alternatives, options, growth in industry, as well as the much lost, doctor patient relationship.

But isn't it the market that got us into the mess we're in today? The market has eliminated alternatives and options, and placed your doctor in the role of negotiator between you and your insurance provider.
You've got the whole thing completely backwards, I think.

I can not stress this enough, we have to sort through the problems, not bundle them together.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "sort through the problems." Haven't the problems already been sorted through by all the other countries with universal care? You sound like you're proposing going back to the lab to reinvent the light bulb.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "sort through the problems." Haven't the problems already been sorted through by all the other countries with universal care? You sound like you're proposing going back to the lab to reinvent the light bulb.

The opponents do not like the Idea that any one else can have a better solution than good ol US ofA. The British system is quite good But there seem to be better models in the rest of Europe.
Top level Medicine in the USA is equal to the best anywhere. But it is available to very few. and the cost is not only ruinous to families. But is the most costly by far, per head, than in any other country, even though the coverage is not complete nor equal.

America is totally brainwashed by the health care industry and their right wing servants.

 

[jarofthoughts]

The opponents do not like the Idea that any one else can have a better solution than good ol US ofA. The British system is quite good But there seem to be better models in the rest of Europe.
Top level Medicine in the USA is equal to the best anywhere. But it is available to very few. and the cost is not only ruinous to families. But is the most costly by far, per head, than in any other country, even though the coverage is not complete nor equal.

America is totally brainwashed by the health care industry and their right wing servants.

The British system is good, the Norwegian one is apparently better, but according to the UN, the French have the best healthcare in the world.
What all three have in common though is that they are what we call universal healthcare systems.

 

[Falvlun]

First, you need to sort through the problems. We can't continue to simplify a complex issue, by bundling all of healthcare into one mass.

Each issue within healthcare has unique problems that require many solutions, not one, and certainly not a central planned solution made by those who aren't necessarily best suited to make a solution for the majority. Once you have the government regulating the solutions, you also close out other, often better, ideas from entering the industries. We also don't eliminate the flaws just by writing a new law or regulation. The market itself provides the solutions that drastically cut the negatives, and it does this by introducing alternatives, options, growth in industry, as well as the much lost, doctor patient relationship.

I can not stress this enough, we have to sort through the problems, not bundle them together.

I agree that there a lot of issues with our health care system, but the main problem, the problem that enhances and creates most of all the other problems, is that our health care system is for profit. The insurance industry, pharmaceutical companies, even hospitals and doctors are all just trying to pad their bottom line. Remove that, and most everything else will fall in line.

 

[Crystallas]

The opponents do not like the Idea that any one else can have a better solution than good ol US ofA. The British system is quite good But there seem to be better models in the rest of Europe.
Top level Medicine in the USA is equal to the best anywhere. But it is available to very few. and the cost is not only ruinous to families. But is the most costly by far, per head, than in any other country, even though the coverage is not complete nor equal.

America is totally brainwashed by the health care industry and their right wing servants.

First, I am not a "right-winger". Heck, I am not a collectivist, I do not stoop to such a moronic level to judge individuals in groups and with labels. I am about the facts. The fact is the market is and always will be more powerful than the government. The market is the people, it is swayed and determined by the people without legislation. The healthcare market is manipulated to the ends, and has been far from being a free market for many generations.

The bottom line is, that I will not pay federal taxes to fund another person's mistakes. I do not expect the same in return. It is an act of aggression to take my hard earned money, and give it to someone else. I can give my money away as I please, and I am very generous to my friends and family. But I work for myself, my interests, not someone else's interests. But the good news here, is that a universal healthcare system is far inferior to that of a free market. I would find it to be a worthy compromise if universal healthcare was in fact, better. Yet, where do the advancements and innovations occur? Not in a centrally planned, equally bad, manipulated book-kept healthcare system. It is best where every individual has the most incentive to take care of their health and act responsibly. To expect the quality of healthcare to go up, just because of legislation, is asinine. You still have the same doctors, you still have the same equipment and medicine, except now, the incentive for the Doctors to do a good job is manipulated by putting fear into them, and the incentive for the patient to be wreckless escalates, because they do not recognize the cost. Nothing is free, the money comes from somewhere.

Instead of taking steps forward, we are heading backwards. We ignore history, the destruction of money, the destruction of cultures because of unitary quasi-monarchical central planning that has oppressed it's people for the sake of the system. If you want central planning, that is fine, just make sure everyone agrees, and leave yourself some room to get out. Me, personally, I reject these draconian concepts that people are stupid, and must be planned for. I'm far too old for this nonsense, I want to live some of my life, actually moving forward, with my freedoms and liberties to take care of myself, as well as have a market around me that suits my needs, and not the minimum needs presented by some small group in a sacred building.

And yes, we need to sort through this mess. The regulations that favor the big pharmaceutical companies help them, and hurt us. The big business in bed with our politicians manipulate everything that occurs. Do you think those politicians care any more for you, than some crooked CEO of big-business. NO! They are the same. They aren't passing a universal healthcare system in the United States, it's an insurance mandate. They measure "access" by determining how many americans are covered by private and public insurance. That is how you raise the cost of healthcare, it is fact, not ideological, it is not one school of economics versus another, it is a fact of economics. Once you raise the value afforded, you raise the cost. It is in direct conflict with the laws of supply and demand. It is also very immoral to be thinking of a system that works only in some utopia, or a different nation that follows a different pie-complex structure completely. Once you ignore the pie-complex structure, another undeniable economic law, you essentially destroy the creation of wealth, and merely rely on wealth distribution and inflation. Right now, we slice far too much from our pie, we can not slice any more. It is physically impossible. You can make magical laws to do it, but the market itself adjusts, and that will cause a negative impact on far more people, than it will benefit, leaving the richest to benefit first, and the poorest to die. Therefore politicians want to destroy us, because more is left for them, more is left for the elite. They do not want us to embrace an open consumerism within the healthcare market. And some of you call me brainwashed? Understand pie-complex structures, do the math, understand where inflation originates. Those are not left-right positions, those are undeniable economic laws, never to be invalidated, and only purposely ignored for their completely predictable reactions that cause destructions to the middle and lower class. If you chose to ignore pie-complex structure, then nothing can help you.

 

[lunakilo]

The bottom line is, that I will not pay federal taxes to fund another person's mistakes.

Yes that is what it comes down to isn't it.

I think that is a very egotistic way of thinking.
You can take care of your self, and if others are not as fortunate as you are then that is their problem. :areyoucra

I do not expect the same in return. It is an act of aggression to take my hard earned money, and give it to someone else. I can give my money away as I please, and I am very generous to my friends and family. But I work for myself, my interests, not someone else's interests.

"an act of aggression to take my hard earned money"

Hmm, you are part of a community, and in a community you sometimes have to pool your resourses.

You say you can give away money as you please.
Say you do that. Say you are a nice person who help out the people around you.
What about the people you don't know about. Not everybody is fortunate enough to have someone who is willing to pay their medical bill if the bill turns out to be higher than they expected and saved up for.
What are those people supposed to do?

 

[Crystallas]

Yes that is what it comes down to isn't it.

I think that is a very egotistic way of thinking.

Only if you ignore the rest of my comment. I am not seeking a utopia, I am seeking a reality that benefits all of us the most, and more equally than just equally bad.

 

[Crystallas]

OK, but how would you fix the problem of tens of millions of Americans not having access to regular healthcare?

Why aren't we questioning why they choose to not seek access to healthcare, or why we have physical limitations that prevent them from having healthcare, or why we drive up the costs so high that it screws some out of healthcare, or why these people refuse to go to charity-based clinics with the some of the most heartfelt and outstanding doctors working for them, or why do we promote so many activities that cause health issues in the first place? To seek the end without the means, gives you a means without and end. In this case, you can fix it on paper, but you wont fix it in reality. Like I had mentioned, that would ignore the pie-complex structure of the united states. We do not have the same pie-complex structure as other nations, we have to address our problems to improve our pie-structure. Adding more subsidizes to our healthcare system with a broken pie-complex structure, breaks the structure even more.

 

[Valjean]

First, I am not a "right-winger". Heck, I am not a collectivist, I do not stoop to such a moronic level to judge individuals in groups and with labels. I am about the facts. The fact is the market is and always will be more powerful than the government. The market is the people, it is swayed and determined by the people without legislation. The healthcare market is manipulated to the ends, and has been far from being a free market for many generations.

Again, Crystallas, you've got it bass-ackwards. "The market" is the corporations or, at best, the corporate shareholders, and It's a corporation's duty to maximise profits, not serve the public. We've seen time and again what corporations will do if left to their own devices. They become rapacious. It's the market that's given the US the most expensive and poorest quality healthcare systems in the developed world.
The government, on the other hand, is us. True, it's been largely hijacked by corporate interests in the past few decades, but don't blame the government -- blame the corporations that seem to so effectively convinced you of their benevolence.
Just compare our single payer system -- Medicare, or our socialized system -- the VA, and you'll see which is the cheaper and more effective system, even considering the corporate efforts to undermine them.
How is it that all the other developed countries have both cheaper and better quality systems? Why are we incapable of doing the same?

The bottom line is, that I will not pay federal taxes to fund another person's mistakes. I do not expect the same in return. It is an act of aggression to take my hard earned money, and give it to someone else. I can give my money away as I please, and I am very generous to my friends and family. But I work for myself, my interests, not someone else's interests. But the good news here, is that a universal healthcare system is far inferior to that of a free market. I would find it to be a worthy compromise if universal healthcare was in fact, better. Yet, where do the advancements and innovations occur? Not in a centrally planned, equally bad, manipulated book-kept healthcare system. It is best where every individual has the most incentive to take care of their health and act responsibly. To expect the quality of healthcare to go up, just because of legislation, is asinine. You still have the same doctors, you still have the same equipment and medicine, except now, the incentive for the Doctors to do a good job is manipulated by putting fear into them, and the incentive for the patient to be wreckless escalates, because they do not recognize the cost. Nothing is free, the money comes from somewhere.

You haven't really looked into this question, have you? You already give twice as much to the government for healthcare than any other government, and yet you still have to pay insurance premiums and deductables on top of that! This is a fact, Crystallas. You can google the stats easily enough.
Eg: The US government pays maybe $6000 (your tax dollars) per person per anum for healthcare. But this doesn't begin to cover expenses. You still have to spend a similar amount for insurance, to say nothing about deductables, and you get crap health care -- caps on totals, denials of care, cheapest alternatives possible, limited facilities, &c. In the UK and many other places You pay half as much in taxes, no insurance, and you'll never be denied care, capped, or see a bill.
If you're so chary with your money you should welcome a single payer or a socialized system. You'd spend half as much in taxes plus no insurance, and you'd get better care.

Instead of taking steps forward, we are heading backwards. We ignore history, the destruction of money, the destruction of cultures because of unitary quasi-monarchical central planning that has oppressed it's people for the sake of the system. If you want central planning, that is fine, just make sure everyone agrees, and leave yourself some room to get out. Me, personally, I reject these draconian concepts that people are stupid, and must be planned for. I'm far too old for this nonsense, I want to live some of my life, actually moving forward, with my freedoms and liberties to take care of myself, as well as have a market around me that suits my needs, and not the minimum needs presented by some small group in a sacred building.

I think it's you who are ignoring history, and the experience of every other developed country. As for your "freedoms and liberties," you've clearly been duped by corporate healthcare, Big Pharma and insurance industry propaganda. You don't have freedom without security, and "the market" keeps you low on the Maslovian scale. In the US an illness or injury can land you in bankruptcy, if not in the morgue.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

First, I am not a "right-winger". Heck, I am not a collectivist, I do not stoop to such a moronic level to judge individuals in groups and with labels. I am about the facts. The fact is the market is and always will be more powerful than the government. The market is the people, it is swayed and determined by the people without legislation. The healthcare market is manipulated to the ends, and has been far from being a free market for many generations.

The bottom line is, that I will not pay federal taxes to fund another person's mistakes. I do not expect the same in return. It is an act of aggression to take my hard earned money, and give it to someone else. I can give my money away as I please, and I am very generous to my friends and family. But I work for myself, my interests, not someone else's interests. But the good news here, is that a universal healthcare system is far inferior to that of a free market. I would find it to be a worthy compromise if universal healthcare was in fact, better. Yet, where do the advancements and innovations occur? Not in a centrally planned, equally bad, manipulated book-kept healthcare system. It is best where every individual has the most incentive to take care of their health and act responsibly. To expect the quality of healthcare to go up, just because of legislation, is asinine. You still have the same doctors, you still have the same equipment and medicine, except now, the incentive for the Doctors to do a good job is manipulated by putting fear into them, and the incentive for the patient to be wreckless escalates, because they do not recognize the cost. Nothing is free, the money comes from somewhere.

Instead of taking steps forward, we are heading backwards. We ignore history, the destruction of money, the destruction of cultures because of unitary quasi-monarchical central planning that has oppressed it's people for the sake of the system. If you want central planning, that is fine, just make sure everyone agrees, and leave yourself some room to get out. Me, personally, I reject these draconian concepts that people are stupid, and must be planned for. I'm far too old for this nonsense, I want to live some of my life, actually moving forward, with my freedoms and liberties to take care of myself, as well as have a market around me that suits my needs, and not the minimum needs presented by some small group in a sacred building.

And yes, we need to sort through this mess. The regulations that favor the big pharmaceutical companies help them, and hurt us. The big business in bed with our politicians manipulate everything that occurs. Do you think those politicians care any more for you, than some crooked CEO of big-business. NO! They are the same. They aren't passing a universal healthcare system in the United States, it's an insurance mandate. They measure "access" by determining how many americans are covered by private and public insurance. That is how you raise the cost of healthcare, it is fact, not ideological, it is not one school of economics versus another, it is a fact of economics. Once you raise the value afforded, you raise the cost. It is in direct conflict with the laws of supply and demand. It is also very immoral to be thinking of a system that works only in some utopia, or a different nation that follows a different pie-complex structure completely. Once you ignore the pie-complex structure, another undeniable economic law, you essentially destroy the creation of wealth, and merely rely on wealth distribution and inflation. Right now, we slice far too much from our pie, we can not slice any more. It is physically impossible. You can make magical laws to do it, but the market itself adjusts, and that will cause a negative impact on far more people, than it will benefit, leaving the richest to benefit first, and the poorest to die. Therefore politicians want to destroy us, because more is left for them, more is left for the elite. They do not want us to embrace an open consumerism within the healthcare market. And some of you call me brainwashed? Understand pie-complex structures, do the math, understand where inflation originates. Those are not left-right positions, those are undeniable economic laws, never to be invalidated, and only purposely ignored for their completely predictable reactions that cause destructions to the middle and lower class. If you chose to ignore pie-complex structure, then nothing can help you.

I would call that a bitter, twisted, uncaring and egotistical diatribe. With an almost total lack of understanding of how Government and industry can be brought together to supply universal health care.

It is only free at the point of need. we all pay for it through either national insurance, taxes or contributions. ( we pay for it when we are well not sick)
It is a cooperative insurance led system.

Suppliers prices are contracted, agreed and controlled, often on a cost plus basis, no one can over charge for the service they supply. If they are found to have done so, the money is clawed back and they are fined.

In this way payments for heath costs are spread to all contributers. It is a very much cheaper than any of the American systems.

In the UK we also have a private health industry based on the American private insurance system. It only flourishes in very specialised services such as cosmetic surgery, and various elective treatments such as discrete abortions and luxury hotel style care. However even the rich use the National health service for the more complex, difficult, or protracted needs. And also to clear up the frequent surgical mistakes from the private hospitals.

At times of stress to the system, the health service will purchase spare capacity from private hospitals; for routine operations Like hernias, or hip replacements. This helps the cost efficiency of both the service and the hospital by maximising the use of capacity.

 

[Valjean]

Have you seen this documentary, Crystallas?
Sick Around The World | FRONTLINE | PBS

Click to watch it online.

 

[Crystallas]

Have you seen this documentary, Crystallas?
Sick Around The World | FRONTLINE | PBS

Click to watch it online.

Oh, what is this? State-run propaganda? (LOL @ your incorrect accusation, again of me being brainwashed by big-corporations.) And yes, I have seen it. But you have all taken me for the moral premise of the issue, but ignore the economic justifications completely. Like the two economic laws that I brought up, but each post here ignores, just like the big-pharmaceutical companies and insurance that also ignore it, and manipulate you guys. Who do you think is funding the lobbyists that wrote this "Affordable Healthcare Act?" So why don't you answer that question first, instead of skipping over it. If economic laws of both pie-complex structures, and supply and demand, both, each, two separate laws, dictate why we can not afford or get this utopian healthcare, why should we continue to ignore our problems, and just add more to it?
You can dislike me all you want, but history is on my side. The nations that ignore the pie-complex structures always collapse, no matter how big or small. In those events, those people may have equal or universal healthcare, but they also die from famine at incredible rates, suicides skyrocket, and life is miserable.

 

[Valjean]

And yet the rest of the developed world is healthier, happier, more secure, has more social mobility and is generally more prosperous than we in the US. Are you predicting their imminent collapse?

I'll accept your proposition that the government is venal, but you seem to think it's the government dominating the corpoations. In fact, it's the other way around.
Curb corporate influence, get the money out of politics, and we can have a government of, by and for the people; all one big family pulling together and looking out for one another.

 

[Crystallas]

And yet the rest of the developed world is healthier, happier, more secure, has more social mobility and is generally more prosperous than we in the US. Are you predicting their imminent collapse?

There are examples now, because we have ignored our pie-complex structure for 11 years now. Nations that are able to afford universal healthcare, have a trade off. They give up on some other state controlled luxury. Such as, we pay the most towards the world's defense. I don't agree with that, I don't think it's wise to meddle in other nations so recklessly, and that is not the topic here, but we can now afford other nations the ability to have a much smaller defense. Of course, this is only one example of many that influence why we can not afford a utopian healthcare system. Not forgetting to mention that much of our healthcare costs goes to our wounded that come back. I was one of those soldiers, but I opted out, the VA caused more problems than they solved for me personally.
If a nation ignores their pie-complex structure, they will collapse, or someone will bail them out. If they are bailed out, they will hurt the lender and if they do not correct the mistakes, the collapse will still occur.

I'll accept your proposition that the government is venal, but you seem to think it's the government dominating the corpoations. In fact, it's the other way around.

You are inserting me into someone else's platform. I did not say that the government is dominating corporations. As you can see above in a few of my replies, I said that the government passes favorable regulations that benefit the big corporations. The corporations need to be held accountable if they do something wrong. But much like most of these problems that have been all thrown into a junk drawer of sorts, we still need to sort them out too, because there are many good corporations that provide jobs, goods, services. There are big-corporations that lobby the epa, and pollute where they would like, or pay tiny fines. We need to sort them out, not bundle them together.

Curb corporate influence, get the money out of politics, and we can have a government of, by and for the people; all one big family pulling together and looking out for one another.

I agree with the first part, but thinking we are all going to agree with each other is not going to happen. We are a diverse nation of many ideas. Until we respect individualism, we will continue to see a divide. Although, if you did want to see such an institution, I support this at the local-state level. Imposing one set of ideas onto an entire nation of diverse thinkers will result in a civil war. Yes, I will be happy to call that one, a prediction.

 

[lunakilo]

Oh, what is this? State-run propaganda? (LOL @ your incorrect accusation, again of me being brainwashed by big-corporations.) And yes, I have seen it. But you have all taken me for the moral premise of the issue, but ignore the economic justifications completely. Like the two economic laws that I brought up, but each post here ignores, just like the big-pharmaceutical companies and insurance that also ignore it, and manipulate you guys. Who do you think is funding the lobbyists that wrote this "Affordable Healthcare Act?" So why don't you answer that question first, instead of skipping over it. If economic laws of both pie-complex structures, and supply and demand, both, each, two separate laws, dictate why we can not afford or get this utopian healthcare, why should we continue to ignore our problems, and just add more to it?
You can dislike me all you want, but history is on my side. The nations that ignore the pie-complex structures always collapse, no matter how big or small. In those events, those people may have equal or universal healthcare, but they also die from famine at incredible rates, suicides skyrocket, and life is miserable.

What is the law of pie-complex stuctures?

 

[Crystallas]

What is the law of pie-complex stuctures?

It is complex, but it's basically that the rate of expenditures has to match the rate of productivity as it is current. That is a VAST over-simplification, but it has never been proven wrong. It's like Newton's three laws of motion. If we try to manipulate the pie, the form of the pie changes to adjust, making it the same after causing an artificial system of booms and bust cycles.