Uncomfortable with karma

[Smoke]

I'm putting this in the Dharmic DIR instead of the Buddhist DIR so Hindus (and Jains and Sikhs, if any) can respond, too.

One thing that has bothered me about Buddhism for years is the way karma is used to dismiss tragedy. I agree with the concept of karma in broad, general terms, but I'm uncomfortable when it's given a microscopic specificity.

For instance, years ago there was a little boy who got trapped in a refrigerator and died, and a Buddhist friend of mine said, "He must have done something in a past life to deserve it."

Last night I went to a Dharma talk, which was very good, but the geshe who spoke said something like this: If a plane crashes because the pilot is drunk, and 300 people are killed, people in the West think the plane crashed because the pilot was drunk. But the truth is, the karma of those 300 people caused the plane to crash.

I'm not interested in debating whether that's true or not, since in my opinion it's not possible to determine objectively whether it's true or not. My concern is: Does this kind of thinking conduce to compassion? I can see how it conduces to non-attachment, but there's something cold-blooded about it that I don't like.

Opinions?

 

[Madhuri]

Hi Smoke, I know exactly where you are coming from. Of course we still feel compassion. Nobody's suffering is a nice thing. We have to understand that the conditioned soul is in maya, constant illusion and in our state of ignornace we make mistakes. Our selfishness leads to our own suffering. I could not wish suffering upon someone but I also see the positive in suffering. It is both the happy things and the sad things that help us grow- help us evolve on the level of consciousness.

When I was a kid I would sometimes be in the car and have a truck next to us full of animals being taken for slaughter. I would get very emotional and angry and my mind would wish that the people responsible would suffer like the animals. But then I would think about those people undergoing the suffering and it gave me similar pain. I would also realise that the animals being taken for slaughter now might be people getting rid of bad karma for killing other animals in their past lives. I just wanted everyone to be good so that nobody would have to suffer.

The good thing is that when we become wiser we realise that our suffering is only temporary and will make us stronger and better people in the greater scheme of things.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hi, Smoke. Long time no talk.

I'm afraid I will have to disagree with Madhuri, as well as with those two people that you mentioned. Yes, even the Geshe.

Maybe there are people who can handle that kind of claim of personal responsibility due to mistakes from past lifes in a constructive way. I am definitely not one of those people, if they do exist.

The fact that my personality is such that I don't usually hesitate to blame people when I believe them to be in error may have something to do with it. Even so, I really don't think it is healthy for anyone to believe that people suffer because they inherited "bad karma" from themselves without knowing it.

IMNSHO, such a thought is morally dangerous and in all likelyhood also not correct.

It is dangerous, because once one get used to believing so, it is indeed too easy to conclude that people never go through any suffering that they don't "deserve". That way callousness lies.

And it is also probably wrong, because the way I see it there is a logical inconsistency in the idea that people deserve suffering that was created by mistakes that they don't realize (or remember) having made in the first place. We do pay for mistakes commited unwillingly all the time, true. But it does not follow that we deserve to, or even that those mistakes were somehow "ours".

In fact, my personal understanding of Karma (more properly "Karmic consequences", since Karma literally means "action") is that it never makes sense to use it as a justification for unfortunate happenings. Quite a few bad things are indeed not the fault of the people who suffer their effects. That is simply how it is - this is not a "fair" world. I understand that some people will disagree with me on this point, but that's how I see it.

Instead, I think it is more accurate (and morally healthy) to see the transmission of karmic consequences as a completely unpersonal thing that does not know how to tell innocent people from the unrepentant guilty. I believe that many other atheists such as me would agree that this is in fact the reason why religion makes sense despite a lack of belief in the supernatural: there is no god, no warranty of heavenly justice, but only the truth that things have consequences and that we can and should try and anticipate their consequences, both good and bad. We can make a difference and there in no Higher Power to protect ourselves, so it follows that it is our duty to do our best in the behalf of everyone, ourselves included.

 

[Madhuri]

Hi Luis, I never mentioned anything about 'deserving'.
I think that both Buddhists and many Hindus see karma as a natural law, not some system where we are judged and put to suffer. We all believe in helping others. I do not think that belief in karma detracts from that. I think this is because both religious umbrellas hold philosophical emphasis on oneness, equality and important of every living being. What happens to every being should be important.
If they suffer because of their past actions then we want to help them learn and grow so that they will not have to suffer. Our nature is love, and that love makes it very difficult to be cold and to not feel compassion.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Smoke,

Everyone is correct in their own way even your friend, geshe, friends Madhuri & Luis.
However everyone is missing the dynamics of the situation in relation to karma.
Life is an ongoing process and the karma effects too is ongoing which means not only the past matters but the present matters too and usually one is unconscious of the moment and so is a victim of past karma.
If the pilot is drunk and causes the plane to crash, the present karma of the pilot is affected due to his unconsciousness, irresponsibility causing deaths of so many people who may all been led by their karma to to the end of this life.
The responsibility or the onus of death also lies with the medical team and technical fitness certifiers who too were unconscious and due to their dereliction of duty such a tragedy happened.
In the same breath let us remember that death what we observe is not permanent as nothing is permanent and the persons who dies simply discards one body for another depending on the karma balance.
This cycle continues till the individual remains conscious at all times then dies consciously for the first time to take a conscious birth and end the cycle for good as only consciousness remains which is universal with the individual remaining as an ego no more.

Love & rgds

 

[Valjean]

I don't see how this is any different from the Christian "God works in mysterious ways," "Everything has a purpose" or "It was God's will."

 

[LuisDantas]

Zenzero, doesn't it all boils down to a realization that it is pointless to seek guilty parties, because what really does matter is learning skillful ways of avoiding the misdeeds in the first place?

I must say, I still think it is unhealthy to claim that people must have "commited sins in past lifes" or things like that. Such claims can not be checked for truth and may easily lead to despise and worse mistakes.

Seyorni: Neither do I. It is not very healthy when it used God as a justification, either.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I'm putting this in the Dharmic DIR instead of the Buddhist DIR so Hindus (and Jains and Sikhs, if any) can respond, too.

One thing that has bothered me about Buddhism for years is the way karma is used to dismiss tragedy. I agree with the concept of karma in broad, general terms, but I'm uncomfortable when it's given a microscopic specificity.

For instance, years ago there was a little boy who got trapped in a refrigerator and died, and a Buddhist friend of mine said, "He must have done something in a past life to deserve it."

Wow. that's weird. Not you Smoke, but in the way karma is expressed here towards the event. I don't personally view the term in the manner like there is some cosmic score board that will someday come around and specifically bite you in the *** later on.

Last night I went to a Dharma talk, which was very good, but the geshe who spoke said something like this: If a plane crashes because the pilot is drunk, and 300 people are killed, people in the West think the plane crashed because the pilot was drunk. But the truth is, the karma of those 300 people caused the plane to crash.

A guess of mine would be the karma caused from someone not turning a wrench too tight, or those in charge deciding to use cheaper less reliable components. Stuff like that. Of course the 300 could be rocking the plane all together now........

I'm not interested in debating whether that's true or not, since in my opinion it's not possible to determine objectively whether it's true or not. My concern is: Does this kind of thinking conduce to compassion? I can see how it conduces to non-attachment, but there's something cold-blooded about it that I don't like.

Opinions?

Maybe it could be looked upon as compassionate in a sense that it motivates a person towards right action and such, and to be careful of what you do in life. Might be O.K. for children for a bit in the manner of a fable, but certainly is something I wouldn't relay to adults.

If someone told me (as an adult or mentally able) that the karma of someone or a group caused a certain tragedy of which a relationship could not be established, the example would be practically useless IMO and would not consider it further.

Again, would it be compassionate? Yes and no the way I view it. Depends on the manner and intent of the person. -NM-

 

[nameless]

I must say, I still think it is unhealthy to claim that people must have "commited sins in past lifes" or things like that. Such claims can not be checked for truth

nothing wrong in claiming so, since it is the only available option !!
There are at least a few people who checked truth about karma, concept of karma is not something which evolved out from guess work of some people.
It does not mean you should believe those blindly, but if you are interested, you should spend some energy and commitment for that.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Zenzero, doesn't it all boils down to a realization that it is pointless to seek guilty parties, because what really does matter is learning skillful ways of avoiding the misdeeds in the first place?

I must say, I still think it is unhealthy to claim that people must have "commited sins in past lifes" or things like that. Such claims can not be checked for truth and may easily lead to despise and worse mistakes.

Agreed. Not to mention that merely holding to this train of thought can erroneously "justify" tragic happenings toward people, and can create issues in how you approach someone in the future that has befalled a tragic event.

In a manner of speaking, using an extreme example, this be the essentially same as saying the holocaust victims in Nazi camps somehow deserved their fate.

-NM-

 

[LuisDantas]

nothing wrong in claiming so, since it is the only available option !!

Is it, however? Some things happen out of other people's mistakes, or out of pure chance. There is no point in denying that.

There are at least a few people who checked truth about karma, concept of karma is not something which evolved out from guess work of some people.
It does not mean you should believe those blindly, but if you are interested, you should spend some energy and commitment for that.

Agreed. Except perhaps about the guess work part.

 

[LuisDantas]

Agreed. Not to mention that merely holding to this train of thought can erroneously "justify" tragic happenings toward people, and can create issues in how you approach someone in the future that has befalled a tragic event.

In a manner of speaking, using an extreme example, this be the essentially same as saying the holocaust victims in Nazi camps somehow deserved their fate.

-NM-

There are spiritistis here in Brazil making a point of claiming that the victims of air accidents deserved their fates.

 

[Madhuri]

I must say, I still think it is unhealthy to claim that people must have "commited sins in past lifes" or things like that. Such claims can not be checked for truth and may easily lead to despise and worse mistakes.

Why would it lead to despise? Everyone has committed and is constantly committing 'sin'. The point of life and reincarnation is that we are progressing, evolving spiritually. We have so much karma built up from myriads of lifetimes that it might take any number of lifetimes to work off. Even if we did terrible things in the last life does not mean we are the same person in the next. I have never known anybody who assumes a person is bad because bad things happen to them. And nobody assumes they are any better. Nobody knows what we did in our previous lives. We should not judge others and I honestly do not know anybody who does.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Luis Dantas,

Karma is a dynamic reaction to any action that balances instantly.
Firstly there is no one to blame anyone.
Something happens, our mind enquires.
Since we only see through the mind's eyes we see the reason and blame the pilot in this case. Chapter closed.
BUT that is at one plane where the mind is able to reach.
Religion is all about insights into the no-mind and there one cannot justify through normal logic that the mind uses. It is only insights and what you are stating is that since we are not insightful we should desist from stating something whose possibilities cannot be verified by the mind?
Yes it is fine but that is not transcending of the mind where one faces truth and it is upto each individual to develops his insight and accept truth in his own way as that is exactly what karma IS.

Love & rgds

 

[LuisDantas]

Why would it lead to despise? Everyone has committed and is constantly committing 'sin'. The point of life and reincarnation is that we are progressing, evolving spiritually. We have so much karma built up from myriads of lifetimes that it might take any number of lifetimes to work off. Even if we did terrible things in the last life does not mean we are the same person in the next. I have never known anybody who assumes a person is bad because bad things happen to them.

Isn't that what is implied by the statement that someone must have karma to pay, however?

And nobody assumes they are any better. Nobody knows what we did in our previous lives. We should not judge others and I honestly do not know anybody who does.

I know quite a few such people personally. I would be one of them, myself, if I somehow believed in reincarnation (which I most emphatically don't).

I happen to be a very judgemental person, and apparently that doesn't mix at all well with the idea of personal karma.

While I can understand that judgements have a serious inherent risk, it still seems to me that it is not necessarily undesirable to be judgemental, as long as I am aware of the dangers involved. There are downsides to not being judgemental as well, for sometimes judgement is a required step towards positive change.

 

[Madhuri]

Isn't that what is implied by the statement that someone must have karma to pay, however?

I know quite a few such people personally. I would be one of them, myself, if I somehow believed in reincarnation (which I most emphatically don't).

I happen to be a very judgemental person, and apparently that doesn't mix at all well with the idea of personal karma.

While I can understand that judgements have a serious inherent risk, it still seems to me that it is not necessarily undesirable to be judgemental, as long as I am aware of the dangers involved. There are downsides to not being judgemental as well, for sometimes judgement is a required step towards positive change.

Of course we have karma to work off. The fact that we are existing in the material universe implies that we have karma to work off. It is a cycle that goes round and round until we reach a state of Enlightenment.

If you are judgemental to the extent that you would despise a person who you believe must have done something terrible in a previous life then that is great pity and something you must work to overcome. It should be assumed that every living entity has done something terrible because the living entity begins life in a complete state of ignorance and gradually becomes more enlightened. In our state of ignorance we are capable of any attrocity.

So you see, a person who believes in karma (which goes hand in hand with reincarnation) also understands the spiritual progression of the soul. It would not make sense to feel negatively toward someone who suffers for this reason.

 

[LuisDantas]

Of course we have karma to work off. The fact that we are existing in the material universe implies that we have karma to work off. It is a cycle that goes round and round until we reach a state of Enlightenment.

The key point, I feel, is how linked such karma is to particular people.

If you are judgemental to the extent that you would despise a person who you believe must have done something terrible in a previous life then that is great pity and something you must work to overcome.

Yes, it would indeed be a very serious character flaw. Yet it seems to also be an inherent companion of the belief that specific people are paying for their own mistakes in (their own) previous lifes.

Unless, I suppose, one chooses to also believe that mistakes/sins are not at all personal in nature, as perhaps you and zenzero do.

It should be assumed that every living entity has done something terrible because the living entity begins life in a complete state of ignorance and gradually becomes more enlightened. In our state of ignorance we are capable of any attrocity.

I agree about the existence of the ignorance, but I see no reason to attribute it to some terrible unknown past misdeed.

Ignorance exists, and it can be overcome. Those are observable facts. I have no reason to assume that there was a prior cause.

So you see, a person who believes in karma (which goes hand in hand with reincarnation)

To some people. Not me.

I don't believe in reincarnation at all. It is too personal a concept to have contructive religious use, at least under my faculties.

Karma does exist, but it is quite impersonal, if not completely oblivious to matters of personal identity.

also understands the spiritual progression of the soul. It would not make sense to feel negatively toward someone who suffers for this reason.

Yes, we seem to agree in that one should not blame people for what they supposedly did in prior lifes that they don't even remember having.

 

[Madhuri]

Yes, it would indeed be a very serious character flaw. Yet it seems to also be an inherent companion of the belief that specific people are paying for their own mistakes in (their own) previous lifes.

Do you mean inherent in you? Because as someone who believes in karma and reincarnation, that judgementalism is not something that I have ever experienced.

 

[LuisDantas]

Do you mean inherent in you?

Far as I have directly observed, in everyone. Myself certainly included. That's the key reason why I directly reject belief in reincarnation.

Because as someone who believes in karma and reincarnation, that judgementalism is not something that I have ever experienced.

I wonder how exactly you conceive reincarnation then. I have a hunch that it is in far less personal a way then that of most people I met.

Reincarnation is a key concept of a Brazilian (originally French) quasi-religion named Spiritism. It is very much at the center of their beliefs, to a degree that would make Hinduism seem uncertain about the matter. And I am sorry to say, it simply doesn't work out very well for them at all. One of the reasons is because more often than not they do indeed become very judgmental and sick on their minds and hearts.

 

[Madhuri]

Far as I have directly observed, in everyone. Myself certainly included. That's the key reason why I directly reject belief in reincarnation.

I wonder how exactly you conceive reincarnation then. I have a hunch that it is in far less personal a way then that of most people I met.

Reincarnation is a key concept of a Brazilian (originally French) quasi-religion named Spiritism. It is very much at the center of their beliefs, to a degree that would make Hinduism seem uncertain about the matter. And I am sorry to say, it simply doesn't work out very well for them at all. One of the reasons is because more often than not they do indeed become very judgmental and sick on their minds and hearts.

I can only speak for Hindus as I have spent a major part of my life in association with various Hindus. I have never met a Hindu who, rather than feel compassionate toward a suffering entity, judged them negatively. I disagree with your assertions. Reincarnation in the Hindu context does not allow room for judgementalism. This does not imply uncertainty of any sort.

Perhaps one important point to make is that a wise person understands that even the most cruel person lives in ignorance and their spiritual immaturity lends them a certain innocence. A wise person feels compassion for the ignorant person. If that cruel person suffers, the wise person only thinks of their wellbeing. Love is at the core of Hinduism. An enlightened person feels love for every living entity.

But a person who is both good and mature can also suffer and even if I believe that suffering is a way of working off bad karma I do not automatically assume that this is a bad person. Why should I? In just one lifetime a person changes remarkably. Why should I assume that because a person may have done something bad in a previous life that they are a bad person now?