Uncarving

[Straw Dog]

The ancient adepts of the Dao were subtle and flexible,
profound and comprehensive.
Their minds were too deep to be fathomed.
Because they are unfathomable;
One can only describe them vaguely by their appearance.
Hesitant like one wading a stream in winter;
Timid like one afraid for his neighbors on all sides;
Yielding like ice on the point of melting;
Simple like an uncarved block;
Hollow like a cave;
Confused like a muddy pool;
And yet who else could quietly and gradually
evolve from the muddy to the clear?
Who else could slowly but steadily move
from the inert to the living?
He who keeps the Dao does not want to be full
but precisely because he is never full,
He can always remain like a hidden sprout,
And does not rush to early ripening.​

15​

I was contemplating this morning about the ancient ways. What were their practices and secrets? Do we have access to the same mysteries?​

There were no "Daoist" masters. There were only uncarved blocks of ice. They were hollow caves.​

I seek advice from today's novices and adepts alike:​

How do you do your uncarving?
What practices and ways of being do you cultivate? What are the origins of your practices?
What do you think or believe it means to be like an uncarved block?​

Thank you.​

 

[Straw Dog]

It is clear that I am trying too hard again.

 

[Alceste]

Music clears my head. That's the most constant practice. When I am playing I power down my brain so there is no interference between my ears and actions. Music is the best example of doing not doing (spontaneous right action) I can think of.

I have always played and sung.

I also practice walking meditation. I live in a very beautiful part of the world. The way I can slip into the zone outdoors here is probably the result of many hours of sitting meditation I did by the seaside near here years ago. I don't do that any more - it was spontaneous and I didn't think of it as meditation at the time. I just felt compelled to go to a particular spot, and when I got there I would power down my mind completely as the tide came in and went back out again. After learning about zazen meditation, I decided that's the best description for what I was doing.

A decade ago I took up tai chi and practiced that for a few years, but I moved and lost my teacher, so I haven't been doing that for a while. It was Chen style.

For the most part, I can and sometimes do integrate the techniques of meditation and tai chi into my whole life, whatever I'm doing. I can toggle my thoughts off and on and my awareness of where there is tension in my body.

 

[Alceste]

It is clear that I am trying too hard again.

There just aren't that many of us. That's the problem.

 

[Straw Dog]

Hey Alceste,

There just aren't that many of us. That's the problem.

Oh, I was referring to the tendency for uptight thinking. I need to safeguard against taking myself too seriously.

Music is a great way to attune one's mind. Even physicists are talking about vibrating strings within nature. I've been making more of an effort to expand my collection into different genres, but I mostly enjoy folk rock and ska/reggae. One unconventional method for getting my flow on is retro gaming. I lose myself playing simple games like Frogger or Pac-man. It's the arcade path to enlightenment.

As far as meditation goes, I started practicing yin-zen. It's kind of like zazen, except more mystical, and brings one directly into simply being within that which is. I'll avoid drawing any metaphysical assumptions, but it does increase energy flow and focus. The origins of the practice remain a mystery, which partially inspired this topic. I have a feeling it originated in Ancient China.

 

[Alceste]

Hey Alceste,



Oh, I was referring to the tendency for uptight thinking. I need to safeguard against taking myself too seriously.

Music is a great way to attune one's mind. Even physicists are talking about vibrating strings within nature. I've been making more of an effort to expand my collection into different genres, but I mostly enjoy folk rock and ska/reggae. One unconventional method for getting my flow on is retro gaming. I lose myself playing simple games like Frogger or Pac-man. It's the arcade path to enlightenment.

As far as meditation goes, I started practicing yin-zen. It's kind of like zazen, except more mystical, and brings one directly into simply being within that which is. I'll avoid drawing any metaphysical assumptions, but it does increase energy flow and focus. The origins of the practice remain a mystery, which partially inspired this topic. I have a feeling it originated in Ancient China.

Can you describe yin zen for me? Sounds lovely.

 

[Straw Dog]

Can you describe yin zen for me? Sounds lovely.

Sure. It's a little tricky to explain, but sounds more complicated that it actually is.

Instead of chasing after or counting each breath with awareness, you recollect the antecedent. That is, you maintain awareness of that which is imperceptible before each in and out breath. Start by being the breath-maker, rather than the breath-watcher, and then follow the potential activating throughout the body while just breathing naturally. Any thoughts should be directed about that which is most antecendent and imperceptible. Like if the thoughts are "in" and "out" then it should be understood that they merely reflect the potential activating beforehand. Think yin-yang where awareness is on the potential rather than the action or appearance.

 

[Alceste]

Sure. It's a little tricky to explain, but sounds more complicated that it actually is.

Instead of chasing after or counting each breath with awareness, you recollect the antecedent. That is, you maintain awareness of that which is imperceptible before each in and out breath. Start by being the breath-maker, rather than the breath-watcher, and then follow the potential activating throughout the body while just breathing naturally. Any thoughts should be directed about that which is most antecendent and imperceptible. Like if the thoughts are "in" and "out" then it should be understood that they merely reflect the potential activating beforehand. Think yin-yang where awareness is on the potential rather than the action or appearance.

Sounds interesting. I will try it.

 

[DreadFish]

The ancient adepts of the Dao were subtle and flexible,
profound and comprehensive.
Their minds were too deep to be fathomed.
Because they are unfathomable;
One can only describe them vaguely by their appearance.
Hesitant like one wading a stream in winter;
Timid like one afraid for his neighbors on all sides;
Yielding like ice on the point of melting;
Simple like an uncarved block;
Hollow like a cave;
Confused like a muddy pool;
And yet who else could quietly and gradually
evolve from the muddy to the clear?
Who else could slowly but steadily move
from the inert to the living?
He who keeps the Dao does not want to be full
but precisely because he is never full,
He can always remain like a hidden sprout,
And does not rush to early ripening.​

15​

I was contemplating this morning about the ancient ways. What were their practices and secrets? Do we have access to the same mysteries?​

There were no "Daoist" masters. There were only uncarved blocks of ice. They were hollow caves.​

I seek advice from today's novices and adepts alike:​

How do you do your uncarving?
What practices and ways of being do you cultivate? What are the origins of your practices?
What do you think or believe it means to be like an uncarved block?​

Thank you.​

I just found your post

So, lets see, I want to first introduce the sort of uncarving I do by sharing the translation that my Tao Te Ching has. It's slightly different, and I have had this book since I first explored Taoism years ago so it has influenced my perspective:

The ancient Masters were profound and subtle.
Their wisdom was unfathomable.
There is no way to describe it;
all we can describe is their appearance.

They were careful
as someone crossing an iced-over stream.
Alert as a warrior in enemy territory.
Courteous as a guest.
Fluid as melting ice.
Shapable as a block of wood.
Receptive as a valley.
Clear as a glass of water.

Do you have the patience to wait
till your mud settles and the water is clear?
Can you remain unmoving til l the right action arises by itself?

The Master doesn't seek fulfillment.
Not seeking, not expecting,
she is present, and can welcome all things.

I see the whole of practicing the Way as simply allowing the mind to un-condition; (or maybe, rather, our whole being to un-condition). The way is like a natural law which is all encompassing and influences the way everything works; like how a waterfall at a mountain source basin effects the flow of various streams that spread down in all kinds of different shapes because it is not any particular thing, as a law, it is able to take whatever shape and influence infinite processes. So even saying these things is to betray it's reality a little bit.

So, it goes along with that chapter 37 that says

If powerful men and women
could center themselves in it [the Tao],
the whole world would be transformed
by itself, in its natural rhythms.

So, the point is the align your behavior with the Way and then everything just gradually corrects itself. Maybe kinda like a fish tank that's full of algae and green stuff and the filter isn't working because the power cord isn't aligned with the power outlet, and once the power is aligned, then the water circulates and everything just gets cleared out naturally as it moves.

That's probably a bad comparison, but it conveys my point a little bit

And "aligning your behavior" with the Way isn't so much a deliberate doing, but a deliberate not-doing, letting go, deliberately not-deviating. What exactly that means has to be groped out for one's self, I think.

Like that one verse that says "in the pursuit of worldly knowledge, every day something is added. In the pursuit of the Tao, every day something is dropped." I think that verse is a pretty all-encompassing explanation of the practice.

"Attaining the Tao" is a lot like Nirvana in that respect, I think, in that NIrvana isn't a thing, it just refers to the cessation of "things".

Anyway, an uncarved block is ambiguous in form, a carved block has a definite form. An uncarved block is free take any form, a carved block is limited by the definite form it has taken.

So, as difficult as it is to do, because our mental behaviors are very compulsive, we are to be like an uncarved block; free to take any shape, because we never have any predetermined shape, nor does any situation have a predetermined shape. Situations and self are mutually-dependent.

So, that's my take on it.

 

[Straw Dog]

I see the whole of practicing the Way as simply allowing the mind to un-condition; (or maybe, rather, our whole being to un-condition). The way is like a natural law which is all encompassing and influences the way everything works; like how a waterfall at a mountain source basin effects the flow of various streams that spread down in all kinds of different shapes because it is not any particular thing, as a law, it is able to take whatever shape and influence infinite processes. So even saying these things is to betray it's reality a little bit.

Thanks for responding.

I agree with the notion of unconditioning the mind from excessive cultural trappings. However, I don't know that it is possible or necessary to become completely unconditioned. Human culture is natural and some convention has utility, such as a common understanding of language. There is much more flexibility abiding within primal nature, though, and that which is artificial or excessive may be identified as such.

So, the point is the align your behavior with the Way and then everything just gradually corrects itself. Maybe kinda like a fish tank that's full of algae and green stuff and the filter isn't working because the power cord isn't aligned with the power outlet, and once the power is aligned, then the water circulates and everything just gets cleared out naturally as it moves.

"Attaining the Tao" is a lot like Nirvana in that respect, I think, in that NIrvana isn't a thing, it just refers to the cessation of "things".

Anyway, an uncarved block is ambiguous in form, a carved block has a definite form. An uncarved block is free take any form, a carved block is limited by the definite form it has taken.

So, as difficult as it is to do, because our mental behaviors are very compulsive, we are to be like an uncarved block; free to take any shape, because we never have any predetermined shape, nor does any situation have a predetermined shape. Situations and self are mutually-dependent.

I like this understanding of the "self" being interdependent upon situations and context. I don't know about becoming too idealistic or making the un-conditioning process more difficult than that which is necessary to maximize well-being. While we're playing human, we might as well become more fully human. An uncarved block is free from attachment to excessive, artificial constructs and may simply abide/flow within essential nature. Things like language and culture may become more streamlined and much better aligned with the essential IMO. I don't know. What do you think?

 

[Twilight Hue]

I was at an Amish farm two days ago dropping off lumber. Perfect weather. Gentle yet cool breeze. Scenic. buggies and horses, rolling fields, and polite and kindly folks.

Monday Im headed to Buchanan outside NYC.

I suppose the block of ice never really melts. Nor the hollow cave it's stone.

 

[Straw Dog]

I was at an Amish farm two days ago dropping off lumber. Perfect weather. Gentle yet cool breeze. Scenic. buggies and horses, rolling fields, and polite and kindly folks.

The Amish are interesting folk. There are loads of them here in PA. I grew up around a few farms and they always seemed very neighborly.

I suppose the block of ice never really melts. Nor the hollow cave it's stone.

Being the case, I shall slide naturally around changing circumstances and let sounds echo while the shadow of images bounce off walls without grasping. It's all in a day of the life of simple human being.

But back to picking up dog **** and mowing the lawn...

 

[Twilight Hue]

The Amish are interesting folk. There are loads of them here in PA. I grew up around a few farms and they always seemed very neighborly.

It's one of the Christian sects I have respect for. It's tough navigating the narrow roads and the buggies. I try my best to try not to spook the horses. Many offer a friendly wave and smile. Last delivery Was in Ohio. One of the boys probably no more than 9 or 10 ran over and helped me fold tarps and assisted with the straps. . His father ran a woodmaking business and was very kind. Im sure even the Amish have issues like anyone else, yet it seems the lifestyle in it's simplicity is a good and healthy one. The farm there brought back many memories. Had forgotton just how fresh and sweet the air was out there.

Being the case, I shall slide naturally around changing circumstances and let sounds echo while the shadow of images bounce off walls without grasping. It's all in a day of the life of simple human being.

I suppose the ice has melted by now. ;0)

But back to picking up dog **** and mowing the lawn...

Ever wonder how the lawn gets under a dog?

 

[DreadFish]

Thanks for responding.

I agree with the notion of unconditioning the mind from excessive cultural trappings. However, I don't know that it is possible or necessary to become completely unconditioned. Human culture is natural and some convention has utility, such as a common understanding of language. There is much more flexibility abiding within primal nature, though, and that which is artificial or excessive may be identified as such.

I dont think that's exactly what im talking about. This is a tough thing to try to convey, there's a lot of just groping around to get a feeling of whats going on, so descriptions dont do too much good. I guess that's where careful choice of wording is very important.

I like this understanding of the "self" being interdependent upon situations and context. I don't know about becoming too idealistic or making the un-conditioning process more difficult than that which is necessary to maximize well-being. While we're playing human, we might as well become more fully human. An uncarved block is free from attachment to excessive, artificial constructs and may simply abide/flow within essential nature. Things like language and culture may become more streamlined and much better aligned with the essential IMO. I don't know. What do you think?

I dont look at it as really a matter of being human or otherwise. I think im talking about very basic intrinsic psychology, and I only say "psychology" because it has to do with the functioning of the mind. If we are seeing anything as any"thing" in particular, that's a conditioned point of view. The point is to not be attached to that conditioned point of view because its just a conditioned point of view. All kinds of different elements [conditions], the ten-thousand things, mix and produce patterns, but I think they are arbitrarily defined. So, to be attached to the carved block is to be attached to the content of the forms, while to stick with the uncarved block is to know the, sort of, substance of the forms. Thus, not inherently identifying as anything in particular and existing in a fluid state. That's what I think is point of the matter here.

Now,im not trying to define a self or making an objective claim. Simply saying, from a first-person point of view (no pun intended ) you can witness that in any given moment, the nature which we perceive the external experience as is dependent on how we perceive our own selves. A big tough buy might not perceive a given environment as dangerous because he perceives that he is big and strong and the environment doesn't seem to be greater than he has a capacity to deal with, while a little child could be terrified by a situation that you or I would see as totally benign and usual.

So, living our every day lives with a certain preconceptions as to the nature of what kind of thing we are or what kind of life we live in will influence the way we experience a situation. It's also a sort of solidity that doesn't jive with the ever changing nature of reality.

So it's a very Zen-like style of simple perceiving the present directly without preconceptions and responding appropriately. So, I guess you could say that a man who has "attained the Way" is one who directly experiences living in the ever-flowing stream of now. I think, as long as there is definition (beyond merely for the sake of communication and all that) then there is a filter which prevents one from directly experiencing reality.

Definition is the carving, reality is the block. There is another verse that talks about tools being carved from a block of wood and I think this is what it means when it says "the master knows the tools but keeps to the block". I dont think this is overly-idealistic because its simply a matter of living without artifice. Very much like the Stoic and, especially, the Cynic POV regarding living in harmony with nature. Nature does what it does with no identification. The tree doesn't think "im swaying in the breeze", it just does. So, we are human, but we aren't really human. I think that things can be more safely identified as processes rather than things. Still identification just serves a a practical tool, not as an absolute assertion as to the nature of a process.

So, dont take anything im saying literally and just use it as sort of indicators as to what im trying to convey. Also, im trying to over-explain things on purpose and repeat the same thing using different words so that it might convey what im saying a little better

EDIT: im probably also going a little bit off topic too. Sorry about that

 

[DreadFish]

I think the reason why im going off topic is because i've just noticed that almost any given section of the TTC can be applied to any other given section. It seems like the various things that are talked about in the TTC are just different applications of a few very simple processes which, in turn, can probably be reduced even further as manifestations of maybe one principle (and then into the ineffable ).

 

[Straw Dog]

Yes, I finally understand that I don't understand.

I really don't think that one size fits all. Nature tends toward diversity. It stresses me out trying to fit into some universal mold of enlighted being. I'm just going to be true to myself and act naturally.

Some folks find that they agree more with the Stoics or the Cynics and some feel more naturally at home with an Epicurean approach. Some derive more insight from Laozi and some find a more comprehensive outlook from Zhuangzi. Reality rests in the space between spaces. We can deny the utility of grids, but we still use them regardless. Approaching reality as "The Way" is still using a grid, even if it is a far-out way of being. The human process shouldn't be more difficult than it needs to be. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[DreadFish]

Yes, I finally understand that I don't understand.

I really don't think that one size fits all. Nature tends toward diversity. It stresses me out trying to fit into some universal mold of enlighted being. I'm just going to be true to myself and act naturally.

Some folks find that they agree more with the Stoics or the Cynics and some feel more naturally at home with an Epicurean approach. Some derive more insight from Laozi and some find a more comprehensive outlook from Zhuangzi. Reality rests in the space between spaces. We can deny the utility of grids, but we still use them regardless. Approaching reality as "The Way" is still using a grid, even if it is a far-out way of being. The human process shouldn't be more difficult than it needs to be. Different strokes for different folks.

I dont think we're actually that far off from each other here, I think there's just a disconnect in communication.

Remember, I said dont take what I say literally

Im not approaching reality as the way, just using that to explain something. Anyway, im also not recommending that we try to fit a universal mold, that's an idea and its artificial.

I really think that there's just a disconnect in communication, I dont think that either of us have a much different understanding here.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes, I finally understand that I don't understand.

I really don't think that one size fits all. Nature tends toward diversity. It stresses me out trying to fit into some universal mold of enlighted being. I'm just going to be true to myself and act naturally.

Reminds me of what Alan Watts points out by way that nature is "wiggly". I think fitting in any mold is an exercise in futility in light of that observation. Understanding you don't understand...........Ahhhh.......... :0D

 

[Straw Dog]

I really think that there's just a disconnect in communication, I dont think that either of us have a much different understanding here.

Yeah, I concur. I was just rambling again.

 

[Almustafa]

i dont know...

what this person does is Jnana Yoga(yoga of knowledge) which is the daily study of non-dual & monist/pantheist philosophy. this acts as a sort of self affirmation...

who is thinking? this brain , an aspect of Consciousness...
I am neti neti(not this, nor this), i am not any quality alone...
who am I? I am Consciousness, full and absolute!

who speaks, who eats, who breaths, who, who ,who; No "one"; only another corner of the Tao.

this exercise exhausts the need to think, and tears down walls of the ego(the obsesion & identification with the body) after that ya just running on "natural mode" doing things naturally without thinking about anything...

another excersize that stills the mind to "natural mode" (alignment with the Tao)
is Kundalini yoga, which is a breathing yoga, breath your energy down to your lower regions as far as you can push it, then pull the breath up into your heart then out your head...

this is like your bodies natural high button... the bliss experienced from this push & pull of energy immedietly extinguishes all thoughts into the infinite Tao-Consciousness