Two Things That Confuse Me About Christianity

[TrueBeliever37]

But this can't be because 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says:

God who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Says right there, "God will save all men." I don't see an "IF" condition in the verse.

That just means that God wants/desires all men to come to the knowledge of the truth and to be saved. But he knows they won't. That is why he said - Narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it. But broad is the way that leads to destruction and many there be which go in thereat.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's nice that some of the newer Far east religions are ditching the old Zoroastrian concept of eternal punishment (which the Christians adopted with a vengeance). There's no place in theology of reconciling a loving God with one that hates enough to torture weak human beings forever. Here's a response from someone to a person who expressed this paralyzing fear of hell:

Hi w and welcome.

I'm really sorry to read of your situation.

Hell is a human construct, not a divine one. A way that allowed the early church to build up its power on earth: tell everyone you're damned unless you follow our path and join our church. It's really a massive con job - a type of existential blackmail.

If you look at the idea seriously, it's impossible to reconcile the notion of a loving god with the idea that he keeps a personal torture chamber. What would be the point? No just god is going to condemn a person to eternal, infinite punishment for finite crimes.

It's obviously a completely made up notion; a scare tactic to stop common people from questioning the church's power on earth. Don't give it any credence.

Expressed so concisely yet so eloquently.

I did not know that the idea of hell came from the Zoroastrian religion. You no doubt know a lot more about religion than I know as I never studies religions.

The Baha'i Faith has no concept of eternal punishment and it teaches that hell is simply distance from God, although it is not clear about exactly what that means, and conversely we believe that heaven is nearness to God, whatever that means. But at the very least one has to have knowledge of God to be near to God; after that it is about how close we feel to God, our feelings towards God, whether we love God or not. I sometimes think I might go to hell because my feelings towards God are not good, so I try to make up for that by doing more work for God despite by feelings. In the Baha'i Faith work done in the spirit of service is considered worship, so maybe that will help me out when I cross over to the other side.

There is not much in the Baha'i Writings about how to get to heaven, other than what I just mentioned, nearness to God, but there is this one quote I just thought of. Mind you, Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (Shoghi Effendi) how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

To get the guarantee, you need both faith in Baha’u’llah and good deeds, but I do not think that means that only Baha’is will be in heaven... That would not be justice and it would not make sense, since there was a time before Baha’u’llah came when people who were near to God died, so I think they will be in heaven. Those who never heard of Baha'u'llah are not held accountable for believing in Him, as long as they live a noble life to the best of their ability and do onto others as they would want to be done by, but but I cannot say what will happen to those who knew about Baha'u'llah yet rejected Him, as there is nothing specific that I know of written about that except the following:

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

To me that means that God will not punish them but rather they will punish themselves by depriving themselves of the 'reward that they could have had' by recognizing Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

But this can't be because 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says:

God who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Says right there, "God will save all men." I don't see an "IF" condition in the verse.

Let's look at that verse, I enjoy analyzing the meanings of Bible verses. I think that you have to look at verses in their context and in this case these five verses need to be considered together:

1 Timothy 2

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

So verses 1-3 say what is exhorted and what is good and acceptable in the sight of God who is our Savior.
Verse 4 says that God wants all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Verse 5 says what we have to do to come unto the knowledge of the truth; we have to go through Jesus.

You do not see an IF but there is a stipulation, because if one does not come unto the knowledge of the truth one will not be saved, and in order to come unto that knowledge one has to go through Jesus, since Jesus was the one mediator between God and men when the was written.

The problem from a Baha'i viewpoint is that Jesus is no longer the 'one mediator' that God wants us to go through, Baha'u'llah is now the mediator, so that presents a problem for Christians who 'believe' they are saved.

 

[Trailblazer]

Both are true. God has provided salvation for all people - whosoever will. Those who choose not to accept and obey his plan of salvation will pay a heavy price.

I do not believe that salvation comes through Jesus in this new age. I believe it did come through Jesus when the New Testament was written and during the Dispensation of Jesus, but I believe that Dispensation has been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. As such, those who choose not to accept and obey his plan of salvation might pay a heavy price.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Let's look at that verse, I enjoy analyzing the meanings of Bible verses. I think that you have to look at verses in their context and in this case these five verses need to be considered together:

1 Timothy 2

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

So verses 1-3 say what is exhorted and what is good and acceptable in the sight of God who is our Savior.
Verse 4 says that God wants all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Verse 5 says what we have to do to come unto the knowledge of the truth; we have to go through Jesus.

You do not see an IF but there is a stipulation, because if one does not come unto the knowledge of the truth one will not be saved, and in order to come unto that knowledge one has to go through Jesus, since Jesus was the one mediator between God and men when the was written.

The problem from a Baha'i viewpoint is that Jesus is no longer the 'one mediator' that God wants us to go through, Baha'u'llah is now the mediator, so that presents a problem for Christians who 'believe' they are saved.

I believe that, and this is assuming there even is a God, that no one man has to be a mediator for all of man. There is a difference in my mind anyway between Jesus saying he is the only way to God and the role of a mediator. Jesus may be a mediator but he certainly is not the only way a man comes to the Father (to use his words). The vast majority of man have died not knowing Jesus so it's obvious Jesus cannot be the only way to heaven.

So I don't see a connection between God saving everyone and a verse later saying Jesus is the mediator between God and man. There are too many other places in the Bible that state universal salvation. Putting the two lines together does create an "if" that is a huge contradiction. If Jesus must be the mediator and this is how God saves all mankind, then nobody planned for the case where 90% of mankind wasn't even going to know about Jesus. That's why churchmen had to come up with "the law written on a man's heart" gets him into heaven without Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

Only two? No, actually more but I will deal with just two of them here.

1. Why are there 3 forms of eternal destination specifically stated in the Bible? They are 1. eternal damnation 2. eternal annihilation 3. universal salvation.

For No 1: 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...Then they will go away to eternal punishment"

For No 2: For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him, will not perish; Do not fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna

For No 3: For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people; the living God, who is the Savior of all people

2. Why are there 7 forms of atonement?

#1 The Moral Influence Theory
#2 The Ransom Theory
#3 Christus Victor
#4 The Satisfaction Theory (Anselm)
#5 The Penal Substitutionary Theory
#6 The Governmental Theory
#7 The Scapegoat Theory

Does God really need 7 forms of atonement to save people? And which form of salvation will God use?

There are not different forms of atonement, there are different ways of looking at and trying to understand how it works however.
There could be different destinations for different people after this life when they are judged but also there are different interpretations of what being unsaved means.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

There are not different forms of atonement, there are different ways of looking at and trying to understand how it works however.
There could be different destinations for different people after this life when they are judged but also there are different interpretations of what being unsaved means.

That's a really sensible answer, Brian. My thought is that some of these conflict with the other.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I did not know that the idea of hell came from the Zoroastrian religion. You no doubt know a lot more about religion than I know as I never studies religions.

The Baha'i Faith has no concept of eternal punishment and it teaches that hell is simply distance from God, although it is not clear about exactly what that means, and conversely we believe that heaven is nearness to God, whatever that means. But at the very least one has to have knowledge of God to be near to God; after that it is about how close we feel to God, our feelings towards God, whether we love God or not. I sometimes think I might go to hell because my feelings towards God are not good, so I try to make up for that by doing more work for God despite by feelings. In the Baha'i Faith work done in the spirit of service is considered worship, so maybe that will help me out when I cross over to the other side.

There is not much in the Baha'i Writings about how to get to heaven, other than what I just mentioned, nearness to God, but there is this one quote I just thought of. Mind you, Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (Shoghi Effendi) how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

To get the guarantee, you need both faith in Baha’u’llah and good deeds, but I do not think that means that only Baha’is will be in heaven... That would not be justice and it would not make sense, since there was a time before Baha’u’llah came when people who were near to God died, so I think they will be in heaven. Those who never heard of Baha'u'llah are not held accountable for believing in Him, as long as they live a noble life to the best of their ability and do onto others as they would want to be done by, but but I cannot say what will happen to those who knew about Baha'u'llah yet rejected Him, as there is nothing specific that I know of written about that except the following:

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

To me that means that God will not punish them but rather they will punish themselves by depriving themselves of the 'reward that they could have had' by recognizing Baha'u'llah.

I don't know a lot about religion; I do know a lot about the politicization of hell for a ruling body's own selfish gains. it started with the Zoroastrians, migrated to Persia, then to Greece and finally the RCC. Protestants picked it up because they saw the value in scaring the hell out people to force them to accept Jesus. Great recruiting tool.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that, and this is assuming there even is a God, that no one man has to be a mediator for all of man. There is a difference in my mind anyway between Jesus saying he is the only way to God and the role of a mediator. Jesus may be a mediator but he certainly is not the only way a man comes to the Father (to use his words). The vast majority of man have died not knowing Jesus so it's obvious Jesus cannot be the only way to heaven.

I do not believe that humans can ever have any direct communication with God and that is why a mediator is necessary. God is too great to be known directly, too different from humans in nature. The mediator between God and man is what I normally refer to as a Messenger of God or a Manifestation of God, as these all refer to the same individual. I believe this mediator has a twofold nature, the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. It is because they have this twofold nature that they can receive communication for God and relate what they received back to ordinary humans. It is because ordinary humans only have one nature, the physical nature, that they cannot receive communication from God directly. This is a Baha'i belief and I do not expect other people to accept it. If they want to believe that God can communicate to everyone directly they are free to believe that, but I consider that a false belief.

I never said that Jesus was the only mediator between God and man, that is a Christian belief. i believe that Jesus was the mediator that God worked through during His dispensation, and after that God mediated to humans through Muhammad, and then later through the Bab and Baha'u'llah. I believe that in every age God works through one mediator because that is all that is necessary, and if people want to know God's will for the age they live in that is the only way they can know what it is. As such there is no way we can know what God's will is for this age by reading the New Testament because Jesus is not the mediator for this age.

So I don't see a connection between God saving everyone and a verse later saying Jesus is the mediator between God and man. There are too many other places in the Bible that state universal salvation. Putting the two lines together does create an "if" that is a huge contradiction. If Jesus must be the mediator and this is how God saves all mankind, then nobody planned for the case where 90% of mankind wasn't even going to know about Jesus. That's why churchmen had to come up with "the law written on a man's heart" gets him into heaven without Jesus.

The reason I see that connection between 1 Tim 2 verses 4 and 5 is because I believe that Jesus was the mediator between God and man during His dispensation, so the way people could come to know God and God's will during that age was through Jesus. However, it is important to note that the New Testament only applies to the Dispensation of Jesus; it did not apply to people who lived before or after the days of Jesus.

Obviously Jews who lived before Jesus' day could not have been expected to know God or God's will through Jesus; they had Moses, who I believe was the mediator for the Jews. After Jesus came Muhammad and he was the mediator for the Muslims. As I am sure you know, Christians believe that Jesus is the Only Way to God, based upon this verse: John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me, but Jesus never said that He was the Only Way to know God for all time. Clearly there have been other ways to know God before and after Jesus.

Can you show me any verses in the New Testament that state that we can get salvation without going through Jesus? Can you show me any verses in the Bible (OT or NT) that say we can get universal salvation and the means through which we can get it?

As I think I said before, I think that salvation is a uniquely Christian belief because it is only Christians who believe that there is something to be saved from, i,e., original sin. In the Baha'i Faith salvation means something completely different and it does not apply to individual souls being saved and going to heaven. The context of this passage shows what Baha'is consider to be universal salvation - it means everyone in the world will be saved by the regeneration of the whole world and the establishment of the unity of its peoples. Baha'u'llah was speaking to God in this passage:

"O Thou Who art the Lord of Lords! I testify that Thou art the Lord of all creation, and the Educator of all beings, visible and invisible. I bear witness that Thy power hath encompassed the entire universe, and that the hosts of the earth can never dismay Thee, nor can the dominion of all peoples and nations deter Thee from executing Thy purpose. I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 243

 

[Trailblazer]

scaring the hell out people to force them to accept Jesus. Great recruiting tool.

Lol, scaring the hell out of people to save them from hell, lol.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I do not believe that humans can ever have any direct communication with God and that is why a mediator is necessary. God is too great to be known directly, too different from humans in nature. The mediator between God and man is what I normally refer to as a Messenger of God or a Manifestation of God, as these all refer to the same individual. I believe this mediator has a twofold nature, the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. It is because they have this twofold nature that they can receive communication for God and relate what they received back to ordinary humans. It is because ordinary humans only have one nature, the physical nature, that they cannot receive communication from God directly. This is a Baha'i belief and I do not expect other people to accept it. If they want to believe that God can communicate to everyone directly they are free to believe that, but I consider that a false belief.

I never said that Jesus was the only mediator between God and man, that is a Christian belief. i believe that Jesus was the mediator that God worked through during His dispensation, and after that God mediated to humans through Muhammad, and then later through the Bab and Baha'u'llah. I believe that in every age God works through one mediator because that is all that is necessary, and if people want to know God's will for the age they live in that is the only way they can know what it is. As such there is no way we can know what God's will is for this age by reading the New Testament because Jesus is not the mediator for this age.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you said it, I was saying that the Bible says it. As for mediating, see this is where deists part ways with religions. Deists like myself believe God doesn't communicate with anyone in any form. He's totally divorced from any interactions with man. That's why evil pain and suffering are so rampant in this world. For my money God wouldn't even stop an asteroid from obliterating the earth. We've seen 6 major extinction events in the earth's history. A few of them would have wiped out all civilization today and maybe one day it will. As it was, only a small percentage of life survived each one and went on to repopulate species over millions of years. Homo sapiens have only been around for anywhere from 100,000 to 200,000 years and our earliest ancestors date back to about 1 million years so they've never been a part of the last extinction event which was the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction - 66 million years ago. With overpopulation and climate change our turn is coming real soon.

The reason I see that connection between 1 Tim 2 verses 4 and 5 is because I believe that Jesus was the mediator between God and man during His dispensation, so the way people could come to know God and God's will during that age was through Jesus. However, it is important to note that the New Testament only applies to the Dispensation of Jesus; it did not apply to people who lived before or after the days of Jesus.

Obviously Jews who lived before Jesus' day could not have been expected to know God or God's will through Jesus; they had Moses, who I believe was the mediator for the Jews. After Jesus came Muhammad and he was the mediator for the Muslims. As I am sure you know, Christians believe that Jesus is the Only Way to God, based upon this verse: John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me, but Jesus never said that He was the Only Way to know God for all time. Clearly there have been other ways to know God before and after Jesus.

Can you show me any verses in the New Testament that state that we can get salvation without going through Jesus? Can you show me any verses in the Bible (OT or NT) that say we can get universal salvation and the means through which we can get it?

As I think I said before, I think that salvation is a uniquely Christian belief because it is only Christians who believe that there is something to be saved from, i,e., original sin. In the Baha'i Faith salvation means something completely different and it does not apply to individual souls being saved and going to heaven. The context of this passage shows what Baha'is consider to be universal salvation - it means everyone in the world will be saved by the regeneration of the whole world and the establishment of the unity of its peoples. Baha'u'llah was speaking to God in this passage:

"O Thou Who art the Lord of Lords! I testify that Thou art the Lord of all creation, and the Educator of all beings, visible and invisible. I bear witness that Thy power hath encompassed the entire universe, and that the hosts of the earth can never dismay Thee, nor can the dominion of all peoples and nations deter Thee from executing Thy purpose. I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 243

You know, Trail, far as showing you verses I can google "Bible verses that support universal salvation". These beliefs come in waves. At one time it was eternal torment that was the dominant view. Now with political correctness and all, church pastors are gravitating away from this view and embracing universal salvation because nobody in today's climate wants to hear they are going to burn forever if they say, "Jesus Christ" in a fit of anger. That's why church attendance in America and Europe is plummeting as more and more people drift to NONES, spiritual people who don't believe in organized religions. This is squeezing the pockets of churches and they are closing shop at unprecedented numbers as their collection baskets dry up. Who knows, 500 years from now after a big cataclysmic event maybe annihilation will take center stage. This stuff is all controlled by political forces, not God. This is all IMHO.

 

[Deeje]

Only two? No, actually more but I will deal with just two of them here.

1. Why are there 3 forms of eternal destination specifically stated in the Bible? They are 1. eternal damnation 2. eternal annihilation 3. universal salvation.

First you have to understand what these terms means to the ones who wrote about them and get the gist of what is said.

For No 1: 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...Then they will go away to eternal punishment"

What is the setting? To whom was Jesus referring?.....and what is "eternal punishment"? Is the "fire" literal?

This is Jesus at the judgment, sentencing the "goats" to the same destiny as satan and his angels. So, what is to happen to satan and the angels who followed him into rebellion?

Revelation 20:1-3 answers....

"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while."

So the time comes for Jesus to judge mankind and satan is bound and thrown into a confined state for 1,000 years along with his hordes. Those who fail the judgment (the goats) are not joining satan in his prison, but are actually eliminated from existence as those who have proven unworthy of the gift of life.

Their eternal punishment is annihilation in "the lake of fire", which is the final sentence for the devil as well. But God is not finished with the devil and his henchmen just yet. After the 1,000 year reign of Jesus, all humankind will have been educated and perfected.... brought back to the same state that Adam had at his beginning....with no sin.....these will then be ready for satan to test them one last time before God grants everlasting life to the faithful ones who pass that final test.

Satan's confinement is for the duration of the 1,000 year reign of God's Kingdom, in the capable hands of his Christ and those who were chosen to rule with him. (Revelation 20:6) But after the 1,000 years are up, satan is let loose for a little while to tempt mankind again. Only those who pass that final test will be granted everlasting life....the kind that Adam and his wife lost due to their failure to obey their Creator.

Only then is the rebel satan along with his minions thrown into the "the lake of fire" which is described in Revelation as "the second death". All who fail the final test will join him in a place where whatever goes in, never comes out. But is this fire literal? What else does Revelation 20 go on to tell us?

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and hades [the Grave] were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:12-15)

So this "lake of fire" cannot be literal because "death and hades" are thrown in there too. It is called "the second death" because no one comes back from this death....it means permanent removal from existence for anything that is thrown in there. It means "everlasting destruction".

For No 2: For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him, will not perish; Do not fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna

"Gehenna" is another term for "the lake of fire". Everything about a person is "destroyed" in that place.

For No 3: For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people; the living God, who is the Savior of all people

Salvation is open to all people....no one is excluded because of any external reason. God judges the heart which inspires action on our part. Sin is the end result of our thought processes. (James 1:13-15) When we are educated in God's ways, we are under obligation to obey his direction....after all, it is all he has ever asked of his human creation.

So just recapping....there are not three destinations.....

1. eternal damnation
2. eternal annihilation
3. universal salvation

1 & 2 are different ways of describing the same destination IMV. Only the ungodly, the incorrigibly wicked or disobedient will suffer this fate.

Universal salvation is not 'universal' at all, but is conditional....it always has been right from the beginning. Everlasting life was assured as long as the people were obedient.

2. Why are there 7 forms of atonement?

#1 The Moral Influence Theory
#2 The Ransom Theory
#3 Christus Victor
#4 The Satisfaction Theory (Anselm)
#5 The Penal Substitutionary Theory
#6 The Governmental Theory
#7 The Scapegoat Theory

Does God really need 7 forms of atonement to save people? And which form of salvation will God use?

God doesn't have theories.....he has truth and his word reveals exactly what happens to all of us and why.

There is everlasting life or everlasting death for mankind.....that's it.....not really more complicated than that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you said it, I was saying that the Bible says it. As for mediating, see this is where deists part ways with religions. Deists like myself believe God doesn't communicate with anyone in any form. He's totally divorced from any interactions with man. That's why evil pain and suffering are so rampant in this world. For my money God wouldn't even stop an asteroid from obliterating the earth. We've seen 6 major extinction events in the earth's history. A few of them would have wiped out all civilization today and maybe one day it will. As it was, only a small percentage of life survived each one and went on to repopulate species over millions of years. Homo sapiens have only been around for anywhere from 100,000 to 200,000 years and our earliest ancestors date back to about 1 million years so they've never been a part of the last extinction event which was the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction - 66 million years ago. With overpopulation and climate change our turn is coming real soon.


You know, Trail, far as showing you verses I can google "Bible verses that support universal salvation". These beliefs come in waves. At one time it was eternal torment that was the dominant view. Now with political correctness and all, church pastors are gravitating away from this view and embracing universal salvation because nobody in today's climate wants to hear they are going to burn forever if they say, "Jesus Christ" in a fit of anger. That's why church attendance in America and Europe is plummeting as more and more people drift to NONES, spiritual people who don't believe in organized religions. This is squeezing the pockets of churches and they are closing shop at unprecedented numbers as their collection baskets dry up. Who knows, 500 years from now after a big cataclysmic event maybe annihilation will take center stage. This stuff is all controlled by political forces, not God. This is all IMHO.

I would answer this tonight but as I just told my friend Duane (Truthseeker9) in an e-mail I have had enough serious stuff for one day, and then I was "saved by the bell" so to speak because I just noticed the post to you below this post and I realized that you have your work cut out for you. Good luck with that and I will see you tomorrow.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

First you have to understand what these terms means to the ones who wrote about them and get the gist of what is said.



What is the setting? To whom was Jesus referring?.....and what is "eternal punishment"? Is the "fire" literal?

This is Jesus at the judgment, sentencing the "goats" to the same destiny as satan and his angels. So, what is to happen to satan and the angels who followed him into rebellion?

Revelation 20:1-3 answers....

"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while."

So the time comes for Jesus to judge mankind and satan is bound and thrown into a confined state for 1,000 years along with his hordes. Those who fail the judgment (the goats) are not joining satan in his prison, but are actually eliminated from existence as those who have proven unworthy of the gift of life.

Their eternal punishment is annihilation in "the lake of fire", which is the final sentence for the devil as well. But God is not finished with the devil and his henchmen just yet. After the 1,000 year reign of Jesus, all humankind will have been educated and perfected.... brought back to the same state that Adam had at his beginning....with no sin.....these will then be ready for satan to test them one last time before God grants everlasting life to the faithful ones who pass that final test.

Satan's confinement is for the duration of the 1,000 year reign of God's Kingdom, in the capable hands of his Christ and those who were chosen to rule with him. (Revelation 20:6) But after the 1,000 years are up, satan is let loose for a little while to tempt mankind again. Only those who pass that final test will be granted everlasting life....the kind that Adam and his wife lost due to their failure to obey their Creator.

Only then is the rebel satan along with his minions thrown into the "the lake of fire" which is described in Revelation as "the second death". All who fail the final test will join him in a place where whatever goes in, never comes out. But is this fire literal? What else does Revelation 20 go on to tell us?

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and hades [the Grave] were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:12-15)

So this "lake of fire" cannot be literal because "death and hades" are thrown in there too. It is called "the second death" because no one comes back from this death....it means permanent removal from existence for anything that is thrown in there. It means "everlasting destruction".



"Gehenna" is another term for "the lake of fire". Everything about a person is "destroyed" in that place.



Salvation is open to all people....no one is excluded because of any external reason. God judges the heart which inspires action on our part. Sin is the end result of our thought processes. (James 1:13-15) When we are educated in God's ways, we are under obligation to obey his direction....after all, it is all he has ever asked of his human creation.

So just recapping....there are not three destinations.....

1. eternal damnation
2. eternal annihilation
3. universal salvation

1 & 2 are different ways of describing the same destination IMV. Only the ungodly, the incorrigibly wicked or disobedient will suffer this fate.

Universal salvation is not 'universal' at all, but is conditional....it always has been right from the beginning. Everlasting life was assured as long as the people were obedient.



God doesn't have theories.....he has truth and his word reveals exactly what happens to all of us and why.

There is everlasting life or everlasting death for mankind.....that's it.....not really more complicated than that.

Oddly enough even as a former Christian, I enjoyed your post. I'm sure many Christians in here will have issues with the annihilation in the lake of fire part, especially where it says "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night" So we know there's night and day in the lake of fire at least, that will please people with seasonal affective disorder. And not having your name written in the book of life gets you tossed in too. The presumption is that everybody who doesn't accept Jesus doesn't their name written in the book of life. That's 9/10's of everybody who has lived so I hope God made that lake real big.

I've always had issues with the how can fire burn a spiritual body. I suppose God, being omnipotent and never running out of ideas for how to torment people, could make a spiritual fire to burn a spiritual body. Other theories are that the people tossed in the lake will have glorious risen bodies like Jesus', but these bodies will be able to be burned unceasingly, you know like the nerve endings never get destroyed, they just go on and on in writhing pain. But somehow according to Paul in 1 Timothy God will eventually save all men so the forever and ever part confuses the living hell out of me.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I would answer this tonight but as I just told my friend Duane (Truthseeker9) in an e-mail I have had enough serious stuff for one day, and then I was "saved by the bell" so to speak because I just noticed the post to you below this post and I realized that you have your work cut out for you. Good luck with that and I will see you tomorrow.

Tomorrow then. Nighty night.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's 9/10's of everybody who has lived so I hope God made that lake real big.

Don't you worry, it is really big, big enough for everyone!

 

[Trailblazer]

Tomorrow then. Nighty night.

I warned you I was getting loopy, see my post above.

 

[We Never Know]

Don't you worry, it is really big, big enough for everyone!

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If hell is real, where is it? Most use the phrase going down to hell. From earth going down simply implies in the ground, which everyone that's buried goes.

Up to heaven down to hell. Is this based on being on earth or somewhere else? Because they only down is in ground and the only up is space.

 

[Trailblazer]

I suppose God, being omnipotent and never running out of ideas for how to torment people,

I keep wondering whether God has run out of ways to torment me.
In case you missed my new thread here it is:

What is God responsible for?

Six cats died in one year and now we have another sick cat. Will it ever end?

 

[Trailblazer]

If hell is real, where is it? Most use the phrase going down to hell. From earth going down simply implies in the ground, which everyone that's buried goes.

Hell is not a geographical location, it is a state of the soul that is far from God and/or a soul who has done serious evil.

If you really want to know what "I believe" hell might be like, I can send you an apt description written by a medium who communicated with a soul who had died and looked into hell, but I warn you it is more frightening than any Bible description.