Tunisia and Egypt ! Way to go

[Badran]

I disagree with badran...we either finish what we have started or we will lose everything...it's now or never

I understand the concern you have, but what has happened so far? Mubarak is not leaving immediately, but he is not going to reelect himself, or at least thats what he says. All the other demands have been approved, and some of them have been already been accomplished. People now are more brave, and there is certainly a better chance of them standing up than before.

What is against us? The Army is not going to do what has been done in Tunisia. People's position now is changing. Its safe to say that at least plenty of people now have full support for Mubarak, some even to the point of thinking that he should enter the elections again, as he is the supposed best one amongst the choices we have, according to them. While in the beginning, people were fully supporting us. Those same people are starting to become against us, right now not directly, but their anger of this stubbornness and disregard for the crisis going on is getting to them and their ability to reason. This means that the unity we were so happy about which surfaced in the these times, is being damaged. And could lead to us losing what we're fighting for, as well as the bonus we gained which is like i said the spirit which surfaced in the Egyptian people. The government has managed to pull her way through and look like a government that is trying its best to support the demands of its people. Whether they're sincere or not, and while they certainly have been cornered into doing this, they have made all the right moves lately.

Also their opposition's position has been weakened in the eyes of many, adding to those who already viewed them badly. The crisis that is going on, which i mentioned that the disregard for it is getting to people, in itself must make us rethink our position. Such issues can not be approached with romantic ideas, or hopes for glorious miraculous victory. If this goes much worse than it already is, which it surely will if this goes on, we will truly have lost the battle because our battle is not to ditch Mubarak, our battle is to make our country better, through removing the bad elements such as Mubarak, his government and enhancing other bad aspects.

What i'm saying is, you are considering that our calming down for the moment means that we have stopped fighting, its not. Many if not most plans, don't go exactly as one has planned in the beginning, you edit them throughout the way according to the changes that occur. We're only supposedly compromising in Mubarak's departure months from now instead of today. Which like i said when we consider the achievement, and the fact that it is extremely unlikely for him to actually leave like this considering the difference in the situation in Egypt and Tunisia, is something we surely should accept. Otherwise we're risking our main goal.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

The Egyptian state television and other non state Egyptian channels are all crazy and hypocrites..."Muslim brotherhood are behind this" a talk show host said on Al-Mehwar channel and they hosted a girl (with hiding her face) claiming she was trained by Jews in the US to overthrow the regime!!!:areyoucra :areyoucra Just a few hours ago, most people praised the young Egyptians for their uprising, but now they turned against them...what is wrong with these people?

Totally meaningless...It's too lame that people would still believe the state's TV.
The girl is too fake!!

 

[Sahar]

Not only state TV channels but the "independent" channels like Al-Mehwar and Al-Hayah allahumma except Mona Al-Shazly that shows much professionalism and transparency...

"Muslim brotherhood are behind this" a talk show host said on Al-Mehwar channel and they hosted a girl (with hiding her face) claiming she was trained by Jews in the US to overthrow the regime!!!

Just want to correct that the show host who said so was on Al-Hayah channel and that girl was a guest in Al-Mehwar..

Actually, I followed all the possible news channels in the last days Arabic and English and I found almost all of them have their own agenda...and now I conclude that the best of them was Al-Jazeera Arabic that genuinely conveyed the beat of the Egyptians and their rights even if they went through troubles with the oppressive corrupt Egyptian authorities and although it faces much propaganda and defamation from the Egyptian media!

 

[EiNsTeiN]

I find BBC very respectful and sincere.

Today, the state's TV is calling Habib el Adly a bad person and that the "new" police is much better!!
And still accusing the Muslim Brotherhood for the "fire balls"!!

Very silly!

 

[maro]

and the fact that it is extremely unlikely for him to actually leave like this considering the difference in the situation in Egypt and Tunisia, is something we surely should accept.

This is exactly what we disagree about
I say that it's extremely likely for him to leave like this..actually we were just one or two steps away from our goal ,when we startring doubting our strenght and stepping back..how sad !!
confidence and persistence is what we need right now...it's not a romantic dream,bro....the eight millions who protested yesterday were not a dream...those can shake the throne of any tyrant in hours if they were determined enough,..if they just believed in themselves.

 

[Badran]

This is exactly what we disagree about
I say that it's extremely likely for him to leave like this..actually we were just one or two steps away from our goal

Okay I see where you're coming from now, just one question to understand your position more. How do you think thats going to happen when there are other hundreds of thousands of people in the streets saying that they actually not only want him to stay and that they support him, but that he is a great guy all around & a hero, and call him their father? Adding that the military is not doing or going to do what was done in Tunisia, on what basis exactly are we going to overthrow him today?

when we startring doubting our strenght and stepping back..how sad !!
confidence and persistence is what we need right now...it's not a romantic dream,bro....the eight millions who protested yesterday were not a dream...those can shake the throne of any tyrant in hours if they were determined enough,..if they just believed in themselves.

I'm not doubting the power of the people, or have lost faith. I didn't doubt it when the ministry of interior did everything in its power to repress us, i still believed that despite all the threats, people will still go. We were people who were going to represent our nation's desire to overthrow its government. Thats not the case now is it? I hope the question i asked you in the first part of this post clarifies my point. I'm not in the least doubting or losing any hope.

In other words in case if you still don't see where I'm coming from, I'm not saying that overthrowing Mubarak is a romantic idea, otherwise i wouldn't have participated in it. I'm saying hoping to overthrow Mubarak this way, when we are not now representatives of the people as we were in the beginning, when the military is not helping us, and when the country's conditions are getting extremely bad is a romantic idea and unexplained hopes for something that we already accomplished, just in a different way than the one we had in mind in the beginning. Something which is unlikely now due to the change in the circumstances which makes a world of difference, nothing else.

If we are going to overthrow him, i can't see how to just keep protesting is going to accomplish it in this situation now. There has to be something else to do if you still want to overthrow him right away and not wait the remaining months of his term.

 

[Sahar]

Please, someone tells me; if you were a minister of interior, minister of defense, PM or the president, wouldn't you give an order to control the attacks in Tahrir Square with any number of security forces and from the first moments? And if you didn't, doesn't this say that you approved the killing of innocent people, that you betrayed your people, that you're a criminal yourself?

 

[EiNsTeiN]

It's a huge question mark indeed, Sahar.

 

[Badran]

I'll wait till i know more about these attacks before i make a final judgment, since i don't even know how long did they last and other details. However i was just watching the news now and Mubarak's supporters were throwing Molotovs near the other protesters who are calling for his removal. It is indeed unexplainable why is the military not interfering to stop them from attacking the protesters. They are also of course throwing rocks at them. According to the news there were also shots fired around or at the area the protesters were in and that in this case the military did interfere by firing warning shots in the air. I'll be waiting to see how the government tries to justify this.

This isn't surprising though since something similar happened with Mubarak surely being aware of what the ministry of interior were doing in the beginning of this, and waiting as long as he did to condemn whats have been done and saying that the people responsible will be pursued and punished etc..

 

[Bismillah]

It is indeed unexplainable why is the military not interfering to stop them from attacking the protesters. They are also of course throwing rocks at them. According to the news there were also shots fired around or at the area the protesters were in and that in this case the military did interfere by firing warning shots in the air. I'll be waiting to see how the government tries to justify this.

Badran, last I checked the Army told the protestors to go home now that Mubarak had made concessions.

Also they found police ids on these "protesters" and many people reported them as plainclothes policemen. I think it just demonstrates how much credit should be given to Mubarak's "word" and demonstrates how he is willing to use lies and violence to stay in power.

Give him an inch and he will take a foot. Stop protesting for a day and the riot police will return. The protest will be blamed as "small religious elements" linked to the Brotherhood and things return to normal.

The Tunisian army didn't overthrow Ben Ali, the Tunisians did.

 

[Badran]

Badran, last I checked the Army told the protestors to go home now that Mubarak had made concessions.

Do you mean that the Army let them be attacked because they didn't listen?

Also they found police ids on these "protesters" and many people reported them as plainclothes policemen. I think it just demonstrates how much credit should be given to Mubarak's "word" and demonstrates how he is willing to use lies and violence to stay in power.

Give him an inch and he will take a foot. Stop protesting for a day and the riot police will return. The protest will be blamed as "small religious elements" linked to the Brotherhood and things return to normal.

One thing i learned during this time is that its never this simple. Everybody aside from the people who were attacked is a suspect in this. Also, i wouldn't say that if we calm down things will return the way it was, that would be ignoring many important factors.

The Tunisian army didn't overthrow Ben Ali, the Tunisians did.

Sure, the Tunisians did. Including their army which is made of Tunisians. Both the army and the people contributed.

 

[Bismillah]

Do you mean that the Army let them be attacked because they didn't listen?

No, some news reports said that the army urged the protesters to stop after the concessions.

Egyptian army sides with Mubarak -- tensions rise - Egyptian Protests - Salon.com

One thing i learned during this time is that its never this simple. Everybody aside from the people who were attacked is a suspect in this. Also, i wouldn't say that if we calm down things will return the way it was, that would be ignoring many important factors.

Calming down Badran? Every news report that I read indicated that the Egyptian protests were by and large peaceful until todays attacks by pro-Mubarak thugs on these people.

I do not understand the purpose of participating in a protest and then advocating to stop when the person responsible is still in power! When he institutes an Israeli puppet as the VP. Simply doesn't make sense to me.

Sure, the Tunisians did. Including their army which is made of Tunisians. Both the army and the people contributed.

The Tunisian army refused to shoot protestors, I don't think the Egyptian army would agree to such a demand either right? The army did not coup the government, the government ended when the people no longer saw it as legitimate.

Stopping protests issues legitimacy to Mubarak's illegal rule right?

Also I have read there is much fighting now, please all be careful.

 

[Badran]

No, some news reports said that the army urged the protesters to stop after the concessions.

Yeah i know, i thought you were concluding something from that.

Calming down Badran? Every news report that I read indicated that the Egyptian protests were by and large peaceful until todays attacks by pro-Mubarak thugs on these people.

Calming down as in take a break from the protests. What i was saying is that if people decided to stop protesting for a while things won't return to how they were.

I do not understand the purpose of participating in a protest and then advocating to stop when the person responsible is still in power! When he institutes an Israeli puppet as the VP. Simply doesn't make sense to me.

I know its boring to read long posts but if you read my earlier posts (in case you didn't) i think you'll see where i'm coming from.

The Tunisian army refused to shoot protestors, I don't think the Egyptian army would agree to such a demand either right? The army did not coup the government, the government ended when the people no longer saw it as legitimate.

Of course the Egyptian Army didn't and won't agree to such demand either, and they made it clear actually that this will never happen. However thats not all the Tunisian Army did, and such demand was never made from Mubarak. In other words, the Army in Tunisia sided with people, here its not either on our side or on Mubarak's side, its on both. They support the security and stability of the country, without turning on people nor on Mubarak.

Stopping protests issues legitimacy to Mubarak's illegal rule right?

Stopping protesting means we accepted his departure a few months from now instead of right away. Which like i said in earlier posts right now actually would be in my opinion the wisest decision, considering the circumstances. Unless there is actually something else to be done about it, aside or next to protesting, then i'd welcome it. However just to keep protesting right now doesn't seem to be going to cut it. Considering that now there are other protesters supporting Mubarak, his acceptance of all the demands, and the Army's position.

Also I have read there is much fighting now, please all be careful.

Thanks Abibi.

 

[maro]

Badran

I didn't see "hundreds of thousands " protesting for Mubarak....those who protested in al Muhandseen were "thousands " as mentioned by al jazeera...and i bet that many of them are paid
which means that we are still the majority...On what basis you say we are not the represetatives any more ?

and the bet wasn't on the military from the start..the bet was on the people...millions of them in the streets after the speech...and who knows ? ,the military may take an action if the people are persistent enough

 

[Badran]

Badran

I didn't see "hundreds of thousands " protesting for Mubarak....those who protested in al Muhandseen were "thousands " as mentioned by al jazeera...and i bet that many of them are paid
which means that we are still the majority...On what basis you say we are not the represetatives any more ?

Well i heard it on the news that there number was 400 plus thousands, may be its inaccurate of course, but i personally don't trust al jazeera anymore than the other news channels. The way i see it all of them have their own agenda. Anyway if you don't want to rely on the number of protesters, how about the people's reaction in phone calls and the like after the speech? Lots of them were calling crying and completely changed their attitudes. They were all now seeing Mubarak as great, and were angry with the protesters. I even keep reading those SMSs in various channels saying "we love you Mubarak" and "You're our father" and stuff like that. Even a talk show host cried. Also note that the same accusations we throw at his supporters are thrown right back at us, we are accused that amongst our protesters there are lots of dishonest elements as well.

But to make it easier, majority or not, we don't represent all people today. There are plenty of people now who view this differently. Who support Mubarak. Mubarak who agreed to our demands, including leaving himself. I also heard today that the vice president said that Jamal won't enter the elections, and that the PM said that certain figures including ex Ministers are not allowed to leave the country (not sure how accurate this is though). It just seems to me we've lost that which we were so powerful because of in the beginning. People's support for us, and their anger towards Mubarak. And when considering like i said the damages going on and the loses our country is enduring, it seems reasonable to me to calm things down.

and the bet wasn't on the military from the start..the bet was on the people...millions of them in the streets after the speech...and who knows ? ,the military may take an action if the people are persistent enough

Well it might work, although i'm not inclined to that possibility happening and i don't think its the best rout to take, but it might. And it would still be great of course.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Badran

I didn't see "hundreds of thousands " protesting for Mubarak....those who protested in al Muhandseen were "thousands " as mentioned by al jazeera...and i bet that many of them are paid
which means that we are still the majority...On what basis you say we are not the represetatives any more ?

and the bet wasn't on the military from the start..the bet was on the people...millions of them in the streets after the speech...and who knows ? ,the military may take an action if the people are persistent enough

It wasn't hundreds of thousands of course, but I'm pretty much sure few tens of thousands were there, and I also believe they were sincere, because I know many respectful people who attended that protest (not the Tahrir one of course)

I don't have a problem of having supports for Mubarak. As a person who seeks democracy, I won't deny them the right for protesting.

I'm now more confident about the Omar Solaiman's recent speech and their honesty for change. Not because they are honest or sincere, but rather because they have no other option.

I'm not so sure about the thoughts that Mubarak and others are lying, because logic proves otherwise.

Mubarak already fell, and he is very concerned about getting out safely and with honor. He won't ever think of running again for presidency.

 

[Genuine Realist]

What interesting posts. Thank you for all of them.

As a matter of political, not religious, reality, the transition away from Mubarak or any strong man rule cannot be done at the street protest level. It has to be transformed into an ongoing, thoughtful, political process, without losing the determination of the protest.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

I s

Badran

I didn't see "hundreds of thousands " protesting for Mubarak....those who protested in al Muhandseen were "thousands " as mentioned by al jazeera...and i bet that many of them are paid
which means that we are still the majority...On what basis you say we are not the represetatives any more ?

and the bet wasn't on the military from the start..the bet was on the people...millions of them in the streets after the speech...and who knows ? ,the military may take an action if the people are persistent enough

I saw two video reports; the first one on France 3:

Some demonstrators catched three of the attackers and took them inside ; they took away idendity cards from the Interior Ministry , they took off the shirt of one of them and wrote his grade on his body , and then they called the last number on his phone in front of the camera, and a big general responded telling the caller to pass him the his subernate ( is that the correct word?)

Anyway, the most beautiful things is that the protestors gave him water, and gave a him a sit to rest before calling on his phone.

Second video , an independant journalist on another channel recorded on video one of the attackers, he told him that a police officer freed him from jail and promised him 5000 Juneih if he went and attacked the protestors.

Two scenarios on tape are sufficient for me ; they might be other free people who thought it was really a pro Mubarak protestation and got involved but these testaments say a lot about what happened there..


شباب الاستغفار الاستغفار , و الله لو لازمنا الاستغفار في كل وقت و حين لرأينا خيرا فاستغفروا و امروا اهلكم و جيرانكم ابذلك و ذكروهم بآية : و قلت استغفروا ربكم انه كان غفارا يرسل السماء عليكم مدرارا الى اخر الاية

و والله اننا معكم صبح مساء , نفتح عيوننا على مصر و نغلقها على مصر و السنتنا تلهج بالدعاء و الاستغفار في كل وقت حين

ربنا معكم فاستغروه , و احنا كـــــــــــــــــــــــــــلنا معكم و ندعو الله لكم فلا تيئسوا و لا تقنطوا من روح الله و اديموا الاستغفار بارك الله فيكم و حفظكم المولى انتم و المسلمين اجمعين اين ما كنتم

 

[Bismillah]

Calming down as in take a break from the protests. What i was saying is that if people decided to stop protesting for a while things won't return to how they were.

Badran, but why protest in the first place then? I thought these protests were to dispose of Mubarak right? Yet here he still sits in the Presidential Palace, still he attacks Egyptians, still his thugs beat and imprison peaceful protesters. Please brother, nothing has changed to stop now would to leave things only half-finished. Why take the risk of Mubarak taking advantage and cementing his power, which he clearly has tried to do after his speech?

I know its boring to read long posts but if you read my earlier posts (in case you didn't) i think you'll see where i'm coming from.

Apologies, I didn't read them prior.

What i'm saying is, you are considering that our calming down for the moment means that we have stopped fighting, its not. Many if not most plans, don't go exactly as one has planned in the beginning, you edit them throughout the way according to the changes that occur. We're only supposedly compromising in Mubarak's departure months from now instead of today. Which like i said when we consider the achievement, and the fact that it is extremely unlikely for him to actually leave like this considering the difference in the situation in Egypt and Tunisia, is something we surely should accept. Otherwise we're risking our main goal.

Badran this is all assuming that Mubarak keeps his word! Why should any Egyptian trust a man who has shamed elections for thirty years? Who has installed as his VP, another oppressive man who takes delight in being the puppet of Israel and the West? Who has incited and directed Egyptians to kill and harm their protesting brothers? Whose armed police have disguised themselves as plainclothes civilians and shot and killed protesters, who have destroyed the national heritage of Egypt. The man who has tried to shut down Al-Jazeera and their coverage so that he can retain control and stop people from learning horrible truths of his regime?

It's one thing to take the word of a man who deserves it, Mubarak has done everything possible to show the Egyptians that he isn't such a man.

Of course the Egyptian Army didn't and won't agree to such demand either, and they made it clear actually that this will never happen. However thats not all the Tunisian Army did, and such demand was never made from Mubarak. In other words, the Army in Tunisia sided with people, here its not either on our side or on Mubarak's side, its on both. They support the security and stability of the country, without turning on people nor on Mubarak.

The Tunisian army sided with the people when it refused to shoot them. It was not the army, it was the people that were the ultimate cause. Governments cannot function if they lose their legitimacy in the eyes of their people, I believe that that as far as the army is concerned it is a third party trying to protect the people until this sorts out. The onus is on the Egyptian people to overthrow their leadership.

Stopping protesting means we accepted his departure a few months from now instead of right away. Which like i said in earlier posts right now actually would be in my opinion the wisest decision, considering the circumstances. Unless there is actually something else to be done about it, aside or next to protesting, then i'd welcome it. However just to keep protesting right now doesn't seem to be going to cut it. Considering that now there are other protesters supporting Mubarak, his acceptance of all the demands, and the Army's position.

But you are still legitimizing his rule for these months. And what is to stop him from then running for elections again and next time being less hesitant to kill Egyptians now that he knows that they will not try to overthrow him when push comes to shove.

Also about the protesters, there are many accounts of them being disguised policemen and also

Vodafone: Egypt forced us to send text messages - Yahoo! News

I understand what you are saying Badran, but from my point of view Mubarak has done nothing to gain the trust of the people that he will keep his word. You should not be distracted with anything less than full concession as even the slightest of hesitancy can easily be manipulated and taken advantage of. What it comes down to is the fear of wasting this opportunity.

Not just in terms of Egypt, but in terms of the entire Middle East. Yemen, Jordan, Palestine, Syria and on. These are not just isolated to one country, Wallahi people take this news and are heartened. Heartened to know that they can take control of their lives and get rid of the oppressive regimes they live in.

Police ID cards seized on pro-Mubarak "protesters" inciting violence and injuring people in Tahrir Square.

http://twitpic.com/3vv4wk

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24271114@N08/sets/72157625838724811/with/5411316547/

Some may be sincere but many are thugs of the government bent on harming these people. They even targeted the army.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I'll have to say that I'm with abibi on this. I am not in Egypt, but I don't have to be to know what is happening. The rulership is the same whether here or there. Mubarak has sought to pacify the Egyptian people with nice words that he knows may touch them and make some of them reconsider. I would warn to be wary of news reports telling how the general people feel. The same propaganda media machine that runs for us here in the west runs for you in the middle east.

His speech is no more than an attempt to make the people lose focus, forget why they are angry. To forget why they gathered in the first place. Was it only to get Mubarak out? Was it to bring about a significant and tangible change to the daily conditions of the lives of the people? If it was for either of these things or something more, did it get accomplished? If not, it's not time to stop. Once the protests got legs, there is no stopping this. You have to finish it now.

If he ran again for elections who's to stop it? If you cease he will know that his people are weak and cannot continue if there is resistance. What has to be understood is that you have started a revolution. Always there is bloodshed in a revolution whether it was meant to be or not. The people seem to have done their part by trying to be peaceful. Seems that didn't work too well as Mubarak seems more than willing to hurt and kill you with underhanded yet overt tactics.

If indeed you have been under tyrannical rule for the last 30 years, then you have more than enough ammo to keep protesting. I can imagine how scary it is. I've never been part of a revolution before, not even a protest. So I can't say from experience what it takes to keep fighting. I will say that you must. Once you start something of this magnitude it cannot stop.

These people who own every government, every land, and every people must be stopped. Mubarak is but a puppet for those elite who really run the show. It's not just the US who run it, but the world is under this same control. Mubarak has enjoyed the perks he's gotten and the rule he has held in a tight grip, and in return he sold his people. He has honored the peace agreement with Israel, but his own people suffer. He willfully got in bed with these devils, and now it's time to go.

He has to go and you have to install leaders that are righteous. WHo will do justice with the people and not sell you and themselves for a paltry worldly price.