Truth: either God exists or He don't.

[Subduction Zone]

Nice try but no cigar. That prophecy has never been fulfilled by anyone except Baha'u'llah. It does not count if many people have traveled to those locations even if in the same order, as none of those people laid claim to being the return of Christ or the Messiah. Even more importantly, no claimants ever fulfilled the remainder of the prophecies as Baha'u'llah did.

It is a slam dunk, for anyone who really wants to do the research and find out the truth.

Are you sure? It appears that you are reinterpreting vague verses to match his journeys and not the other way around. You are interpreting his locations to match the prophesy. That can often be done with vague prophesy. And there is no real order, that was merely a list.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why would prophecies have to meet your criteria in order to represent Biblical foreknowledge?

Those are your criteria, but since you are not the one who wrote the prophecies they were not written to fulfill YOUR criteria. Do you now understand why your requirements are not reasonable?

So, really what you listed as criteria are what it would take for you to consider that prophecy acceptable as evidence. Sorry, but the OT prophets did not reveal those prophecies with "making it easy" in mind, and there is a reason why they didn't. That reason is related to separating the wheat from the chaff.

Because far too many events meet "prophesy" if one does not do so. By the standard of theists Nostradamus was the greatest prophet ever. But all that he did was to learn how to write prophesies vague enough about people and events that they would come true time after time. A vague prophesy with multiple interpretations is a failed prophesy.

 

[Trailblazer]

What in them is not reasonable?

What is not reasonable is that we do not get to set the criteria for how prophecies were written because we did not write those prophecies.
This is the logic 101 stuff that flies right over the heads of atheists, who claim to be logical.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Typical prophecy

A prophecy is a message that is claimed by a prophet to have been communicated to them by a deity. Such messages typically involve inspiration, interpretation, or revelation of divine will concerning the prophet's social world and events to come (compare divine knowledge).

Prophecy - Wikipedia

Calculate Duration Between Two Dates – Results​

Spoken of by the Prophet Daniel.

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you sure? It appears that you are reinterpreting vague verses to match his journeys and not the other way around. You are interpreting his locations to match the prophesy. That can often be done with vague prophesy. And there is no real order, that was merely a list.

No, it just so happens that His journeys match the prophecy. Do you understand how prophecies are written?
Pay close attention to what this prophecy says "he" will do.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

The "and" means that he will do those things in the order presented, which is exactly what bahaullah did. Not only that, but ii would have been impossible for Baha'u'llah to "fake" the fulfillment because He was a prisoner and an exile, so he had no control over His own circumstances during any of those years.

Here is another example of some prophecies in the NT that are to be fulfilled in succession

Mark 13:24-26 ”But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Rev 6:12-13 “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.”

These three events would take place successively, each one in turn heralding a closer approach of the footsteps of the return of Christ, until, shortly after the last of the three, the star-fall, He would come with great power and glory....

These prophecies have already been fulfilled in the exact order predicted, and after that the return of Christ, who was also the Messiah, appeared.

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake

2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day

3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars

 

[Trailblazer]

Because far too many events meet "prophesy" if one does not do so.

That's right, and that is why one needs to look at ALL the prophecies, not only one.
Obviously, a claimant would have to fulfill ALL the prophecies given in the Bible in order to be the return of Christ and Messiah that the Bible is referring to.

By the standard of theists Nostradamus was the greatest prophet ever. But all that he did was to learn how to write prophesies vague enough about people and events that they would come true time after time. A vague prophesy with multiple interpretations is a failed prophesy.

A vague prophesy with multiple interpretations is a failed prophesy IF you are trying to use that prophecy to determine is the person who wrote it was a true prophet.

As a theist I certainly do not believe that Nostradamus was the greatest prophet ever, and in fact I do not even believe he was a prophet. Although he might have been a seer, being able to see into the future, that does not make him a prophet. According to my beliefs all prophets either receive a direct revelation from God or they are recipients of the hidden inspirations of God, so they must meet one of these criteria: The Three Kinds of Prophets

 

[Trailblazer]

No, that is a way of sidestepping the fact
that some things don't count as prophecy by any reasonable standard.

"Something will happen", say.
Or
"The sun shall shine upon a great battle".

Terrif prophecy, those.

Your cheap shot about stupid atheists was
mean spirited and totally uncalled for.

We thought you were better than that.

It was uncalled for and as such I apologize, but it is true that we cannot set the criteria for how prophecies were written because we did not write those prophecies. In other words, if they were revealed to suit a particular purpose, then they have to fulfill that purpose. I believe the purpose of the biblical prophecies was so people would be able to recognize the person to who they refer in the future by matching the prophecies with the events that would take place in the future.

Atheists are not stupid by any means, I just think me and SZ were talking at cross purposes. Apparently there was a misunderstanding about what is meant by a prophecy. I was only referring to biblical prophecies that were revealed by OT prophets or by Jesus. I was not referring to predictions that were made by people like Nostradamus or Joseph Smith.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's right, and that is why one needs to look at ALL the prophecies, not only one.
Obviously, a claimant would have to fulfill ALL the prophecies given in the Bible in order to be the return of Christ and Messiah that the Bible is referring to.

A vague prophesy with multiple interpretations is a failed prophesy IF you are trying to use that prophecy to determine is the person who wrote it was a true prophet.

As a theist I certainly do not believe that Nostradamus was the greatest prophet ever, and in fact I do not even believe he was a prophet. Although he might have been a seer, being able to see into the future, that does not make him a prophet. According to my beliefs all prophets either receive a direct revelation from God or they are recipients of the hidden inspirations of God, so they must meet one of these criteria: The Three Kinds of Prophets

I am sorry, but no number of overly vague prophecies is ever evidence. They are simply too easy to fulfill by reinterpreting events after the fact. And when there are precise prophesies they all tend to fail. That should tell believers something.

 

[Audie]

It was uncalled for and as such I apologize, but it is true that we cannot set the criteria for how prophecies were written because we did not write those prophecies. In other words, if they were revealed to suit a particular purpose, then they have to fulfill that purpose. I believe the purpose of the biblical prophecies was so people would be able to recognize the person to who they refer in the future by matching the prophecies with the events that would take place in the future.

Atheists are not stupid by any means, I just think me and SZ were talking at cross purposes. Apparently there was a misunderstanding about what is meant by a prophecy. I was only referring to biblical prophecies that were revealed by OT prophets or by Jesus. I was not referring to predictions that were made by people like Nostradamus or Joseph Smith.

Aww. Sorry I was snippy with you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Aww. Sorry I was snippy with you.

That's okay, because I deserved it, but I was having kind of a hard day as the tenants I was hoping would be tenants probably won't be and that was a big disappointment. They not only want land, but they want fenced land for their horse. I should have known better than to get my hopes up...
Then our sick cat piddled in her cat bed, and I don't care about the bed, only the cat and why she did that.
It's just one stressor after another.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am sorry, but no number of overly vague prophecies is ever evidence. They are simply too easy to fulfill by reinterpreting events after the fact. And when there are precise prophesies they all tend to fail. That should tell believers something.

The ONLY way that they can be understood is after the fact, there is no other way. Otherwise we are just shooting in the dark, trying to understand what they mean. And they were intended to be understood after the fact.

The Bible prophecies were not intended to be used as evidence for the Messiah, although they were written to help us figure out who that Messiah was, and who he wasn't.

Which precise prophecies do you believe have failed?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The ONLY way that they can be understood is after the fact, there is no other way. Otherwise we are just shooting in the dark, trying to understand what they mean. And they were intended to be understood after the fact.

The Bible prophecies were not intended to be used as evidence for the Messiah, although they were written to help us figure out who that Messiah was, and who he wasn't.

Which precise prophecies do you believe have failed?

That should tell you something. The same could be said about the prophesies of Nostradamus. He was good. HIs prophecies often came "true" several times.

 

[Trailblazer]

That should tell you something. The same could be said about the prophesies of Nostradamus. He was good. His prophecies often came "true" several times.

The prophecies of the OT prophets and those of Jesus only came true once since they only refer to one individual.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The prophecies of the OT prophets and those of Jesus only came true once since they only refer to one individual.

Which prophecies are those? I know that many of the so called prophecies about Jesus were not about Jesus and many of them were not even prophecies. The Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah because they did not think that he fulfilled any prophecies.

 

[Samael_Khan]

You have set yourself up as the ultimate authority in the universe. You believe that only you have the capacity and ability to decipher whats true and whats false.
Now before you disagree please hear me out. You say that you listen to what everyone else has to say then you draw your own conclusion conditionally of course. You admit that you don't know what's true and false so you go with your feelings, which can change in a moment of madness.
The bottom line here is, you have set yourself up as the final authority on all things,. In other words you are your own god.

Nope, not feelings. I don't just believe what ever I feel is true. I weigh information by appealing to other people's authority and knowledge in matters. I cannot be viewing myself as the ultimate authority if I am conceding to those with more knowledge because they have the credentials.

My conclusions are based off accumulated knowledge. The more knowledge we have about a subject, the more our viewpoints should adapt to that knowledge. That is the opposite of having viewpoints just based on feelings. We shouldn't come to conclusions on something where there is a complete absence of knowledge because we cannot examine it.

If one isn't willing to change their mind, they will start from a point of ignorance and remain in their ignorance.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which prophecies are those? I know that many of the so called prophecies about Jesus were not about Jesus and many of them were not even prophecies. The Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah because they did not think that he fulfilled any prophecies.

Many of those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.

From the introduction to the book:

The Problem.

In the first half of the nineteenth century, there was world-wide and fervent expectation that during the 1840’s the return of Christ would take place. The story made the headlines and even reached the Congress of the United States. From China and the Middle East to Europe and America, men of conflicting ideas shared in the expectancy. Scoffers were many but the enthusiasm was tremendous, and all agreed on the time. Why? And what became of the story? Did anything happen or was it all a dream?

The Solution.

Patiently, and with exemplary thoroughness, William Sears set out to solve this mystery. In Thief in the Night he presents his fully detailed “conduct of the case” in an easy style which enthuses the reader with the excitement of the chase. The solution to which all the clues lead comes as a tremendous challenge.

This is a mystery story with a difference: the mystery is a real one, and of vital importance to every human being. The author presents the evidence in The case of the missing millennium in such a way that you can solve it for yourself.

Christ returns

In fact, our press has been scooped by over a century. You will find here considerable evidence to show that when the newspapers and publications of the 1840s printed their stories headed, Return of Christ expected, they were printing not fancy, but fact, even though they were unaware of the nature of the story at the time, and were totally unable to substantiate its truth in that hour.

If what I have uncovered is the truth, then (according to the testimony of the hard-boiled newspaper editors of the West) it is the most shocking and dramatic story that anyone could possibly tell in print.

But will anyone believe me?

You are now starting where I started a few years ago on The strange case of the missing millennium.

William Sears

 

[Samael_Khan]

You have set yourself up as the ultimate authority in the universe. You believe that only you have the capacity and ability to decipher whats true and whats false.
Now before you disagree please hear me out. You say that you listen to what everyone else has to say then you draw your own conclusion conditionally of course. You admit that you don't know what's true and false so you go with your feelings, which can change in a moment of madness.
The bottom line here is, you have set yourself up as the final authority on all things,. In other words you are your own god.

You are very ironic in your statement. I use other people, real provable beings, to gauge my knowledge. All you use to gain knowledge is yourself and your own experience which means that YOU rather, are the one who views himself as the ultimate authority, since you don't measure your beliefs outside yourself and your own experience. Your belief in god, is just based on your own feelings and your own imagination, not through any objective criteria. Even though you claim god to be the ultimate authority, your knowledge claim for god is based on your own perceived authority.

 

[night912]

Mona Lisa served as evidence of a painter, the world and universe is evidence of a Creator God. You can't recreate your big bang or your evolution theory. But the evidence of a creator is in your face right now

How/why does the Mona Lisa serve as evidence of a painter? Why is an apple tree not evidence for the same painter who painted the Mona Lisa?

 

[Audie]

Nope, not feelings. I don't just believe what ever I feel is true. I weigh information by appealing to other people's authority and knowledge in matters. I cannot be viewing myself as the ultimate authority if I am conceding to those with more knowledge because they have the credentials.

My conclusions are based off accumulated knowledge. The more knowledge we have about a subject, the more our viewpoints should adapt to that knowledge. That is the opposite of having viewpoints just based on feelings. We shouldn't come to conclusions on something where there is a complete absence of knowledge because we cannot examine it.

If one isn't willing to change their mind, they will start from a point of ignorance and remain in their ignorance.

Based on feelings= self indulgence

 

[Audie]

How/why does the Mona Lisa serve as evidence of a painter? Why is an apple tree not evidence for the same painter who painted the Mona Lisa?

Its pretty simple. We observe how paintings are made. We understand every detail.
No "natural" means of paintings coming
into existence is known or imagined.

A waterfall forms by natural processes that
are observable and very well understood.

While the exact origin of life is not understood,
an apple or an elephant is formed by natural
processes that are well known and understood.