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Trump files lawsuit against NY Times

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I disagree. While I didn't vote for him, & I've found great wrong
in some of his policies (eg, proxy attack on Iran), I've also found
merit in others.

Well, then, I guess you're not one of the robots. You are to be commended for your ability to think freely and independently.

I'll pick one significant contribution....
He was a prime mover in ending the cold war with the USSR. There were
his hard line, the imposed economic burden of military parity, & negotiations
with Gorbachev (another prime mover).
It's always amazed me that the left utterly denies Reagan's importance in this.
Ref...
Did Reagan End the Cold War? | History News Network
New Book Dissects Reagan's Role In The Cold War

Reagan entered office hostile to communist countries, particularly the USSR.
His about face, becoming friendly with Russians shows me an ability to learn,
adapt, & make progress. Compare this with Trump, who appears locked in
his ways....not much learning going on.

A lot of people credit Reagan with ending the Cold War, but it could have easily gone the other way in those early years. Gorbachev also made a huge difference, but in actuality, the Cold War was starting to wind down anyway before Reagan even came into office. Relations with both the Soviet Union and China had been improving due to Nixon. America was learning, adapting, and making progress after learning some harsh lessons in Vietnam. Carter seemed committed to peace, although he didn't pull any punches in accusing the Soviets of human rights violations and later condemnations over Afghanistan. His main downfall was Iran, which wasn't really his fault, but he was blamed for it nonetheless.

Just the same, it seemed overall progress was being made. That's why Reagan's 20-mule team, saber-rattling, "evil empire" talk seemed totally regressive, as if the guy just woke from a 30-year nap and wasn't aware of what had happened since the 1950s. Whatever America had learned about itself and whatever progress was made since then was totally forgotten and went into reverse.

In any case, I don't see how anyone can credit Reagan for events that took place outside of America which Reagan had no real control over (and most of which happened after he was already out of office).

To say he "ruined this country" seems as extreme as "cult-like devotion",
but in the other direction. I say the country survived him well. I saw
first hand economic improvement directly attributable to his tax reform,
eg, fixing severe real estate market distortions due to more rational capital
gains & accelerated depreciation tax treatment. In layman's terms, a
liberal would say that he closed a big "loophole".

He took America in a different direction, away from the progress and enlightenment we achieved in the previous decades. The Reagan era is characterized by excess. He gave everyone license to become as materialistic, militaristic, and narcissistic as they wanted. Even liberals latched on to that, as most people started to think of the old ideas of "peace" and "love" as pretty stupid, naive, and bad for America.

Or as George Carlin put it, "We went from 'All You Need Is Love' to "He Who Dies With The Most Toys Wins'."

I think America really had a chance to get better and greater, if we had continued in the more progressive and enlightened direction that so many people were advocating. But yes, I think that Reagan and his followers ruined that. I think they were the ones who originally planted the seeds of hate and divisiveness we're seeing so much of today.

Whatever economic improvements there might have been only really benefited the wealthy, while the middle class remained mostly stagnant, and the poor got poorer. And even then, it was all mostly based on borrowed money. There was nothing visible or substantial to it, other than accountants' trickery. Meanwhile, factories were closing left and right and jobs were being sent overseas. Not an indication of any "improvement." It's more a sign of decline.

People like to blame him for the S&L Crisis, but it was a long time coming,
with causes spanning decades, & involving state governments too.
Deregulation began before Reagan even entered office.
And at the state level, there was almost no regulation of real estate appraisals.
This is another thing I saw first hand as an investor. (I could get a property
appraised for whatever I needed to secure the loan I wanted.) This led to
many properties being under water as soon as they were purchased.
Any slight downturn in the economy could bring down that house of cards.
Savings and loan crisis - Wikipedia

Reagan was at the helm at the time. Yes, there were other people involved, and maybe it wasn't his direct responsibility. But I think even Greenspan had to finally admit that their policies weren't really as great as people thought they were at the time.

I find it counter-productive to judge people by the label method. It removes
complexities & middle ground when they become either one thing or the other.
The Reagan-was-great & Reagan-was-worst camps will never see the big picture.

Tis better to see greatness as irrelevant. He did the things he did.
Judge each action on its consequences...not based upon labels
applied to the man.


All in all, I see Reagan more in a symbolic sense, since he never struck me as terribly bright, and my impression was that he was likely a puppet of his advisors. I never really saw him as his own man, and most of the hype and enthusiasm of his followers has continued to baffle and mystify me to this very day.

Other Republicans have held similar views as Reagan, yet they never enjoyed that level of popularity and devotion. I even remember the Republicans who initially opposed him for the nomination in 1980, once they were out of the race, they all marched in lockstep behind him. It was similar with Trump, as a lot of Republicans opposed him initially. But now, not really.

But as far as "greatness" is concerned, I think that one has to look at great achievements and contributions to the overall society. I just don't see that Reagan did anything to break that barrier. Even if you want to give him credit over the ending of the Cold War, the fact is, it ended on a sour note which has been coming back to haunt us today. So, it may not have been very good for us in the long run.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well, then, I guess you're not one of the robots. You are to be commended for your ability to think freely and independently.



A lot of people credit Reagan with ending the Cold War, but it could have easily gone the other way in those early years. Gorbachev also made a huge difference, but in actuality, the Cold War was starting to wind down anyway before Reagan even came into office. Relations with both the Soviet Union and China had been improving due to Nixon. America was learning, adapting, and making progress after learning some harsh lessons in Vietnam. Carter seemed committed to peace, although he didn't pull any punches in accusing the Soviets of human rights violations and later condemnations over Afghanistan. His main downfall was Iran, which wasn't really his fault, but he was blamed for it nonetheless.

Just the same, it seemed overall progress was being made. That's why Reagan's 20-mule team, saber-rattling, "evil empire" talk seemed totally regressive, as if the guy just woke from a 30-year nap and wasn't aware of what had happened since the 1950s. Whatever America had learned about itself and whatever progress was made since then was totally forgotten and went into reverse.

In any case, I don't see how anyone can credit Reagan for events that took place outside of America which Reagan had no real control over (and most of which happened after he was already out of office).



He took America in a different direction, away from the progress and enlightenment we achieved in the previous decades. The Reagan era is characterized by excess. He gave everyone license to become as materialistic, militaristic, and narcissistic as they wanted. Even liberals latched on to that, as most people started to think of the old ideas of "peace" and "love" as pretty stupid, naive, and bad for America.

Or as George Carlin put it, "We went from 'All You Need Is Love' to "He Who Dies With The Most Toys Wins'."

I think America really had a chance to get better and greater, if we had continued in the more progressive and enlightened direction that so many people were advocating. But yes, I think that Reagan and his followers ruined that. I think they were the ones who originally planted the seeds of hate and divisiveness we're seeing so much of today.

Whatever economic improvements there might have been only really benefited the wealthy, while the middle class remained mostly stagnant, and the poor got poorer. And even then, it was all mostly based on borrowed money. There was nothing visible or substantial to it, other than accountants' trickery. Meanwhile, factories were closing left and right and jobs were being sent overseas. Not an indication of any "improvement." It's more a sign of decline.



Reagan was at the helm at the time. Yes, there were other people involved, and maybe it wasn't his direct responsibility. But I think even Greenspan had to finally admit that their policies weren't really as great as people thought they were at the time.




All in all, I see Reagan more in a symbolic sense, since he never struck me as terribly bright, and my impression was that he was likely a puppet of his advisors. I never really saw him as his own man, and most of the hype and enthusiasm of his followers has continued to baffle and mystify me to this very day.

Other Republicans have held similar views as Reagan, yet they never enjoyed that level of popularity and devotion. I even remember the Republicans who initially opposed him for the nomination in 1980, once they were out of the race, they all marched in lockstep behind him. It was similar with Trump, as a lot of Republicans opposed him initially. But now, not really.

But as far as "greatness" is concerned, I think that one has to look at great achievements and contributions to the overall society. I just don't see that Reagan did anything to break that barrier. Even if you want to give him credit over the ending of the Cold War, the fact is, it ended on a sour note which has been coming back to haunt us today. So, it may not have been very good for us in the long run.
A lot of words there.
I just don't see Reagan as the negative influence that you do.
I credit him for ramping down the risk of war with the USSR.
He won election as hostile to commies, indicating that this
was the general mood of the times. And he was the one,
with Gorby, who turned things around. Note that historians
are now crediting his initial hard line as helping Gorbachev
seek peace (against his own party's opposition).

Anyway, marching in robotic lockstep isn't just a Republican thing.
Obama inspired it more so than anyone I've seen since Kennedy.
Policies didn't matter to many...they just loved him.
So given the applicability of that dismissive accusation to nearly
all popular presidents, I recommend avoiding it....cuz it smacks
of empty insult.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I disagree. While I didn't vote for him, & I've found great wrong
in some of his policies (eg, proxy attack on Iran), I've also found
merit in others.

Same here. I don't like the idea of a "space force" (even though Russia stalks our satellites), because whatever occurrences happen in space can be handled right here on the ground.

...The only reason I defend Trump on RF all the time, is to get a rise out of people... I like to watch liberals freak out. :)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Same here. I don't like the idea of a "space force" (even though Russia stalks our satellites), because whatever occurrences happen in space can be handled right here on the ground.

...The only reason I defend Trump on RF all the time, is to get a rise out of people... I like to watch liberals freak out. :)
I'll wager that a space force would be ground based,
but focused upon affairs overhead.
 
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