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Trump announce tariffs that shock rest of GOP.

metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
ThePainefulTruth said:
If you're talking about the negative so called conservative commentators, they are members to the Establishment, from both parties. And why should we be horrified?
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OK, so the conservative economists think it's bad news, the more liberal economists think it's bad news, but their supposedly wrong because they're "Establishment"?

The history of trade wars is not good, and we simply cannot turn the clock back. I was opposed to NAFTA from the outset, but the reality is that once the genie is out of the bottle she's a bugger to get back in. However, admittedly these trade alliances have helped a lot of people in a lot of countries, including here in the States, and if we don't play the game, we'll lose, and this is coming from a guy who economically is a "Neo-Marxist". Now, don't let that title scare ya because it has nothing to do with "Communism" ala Soviet or Chinese style. It's more based on Gandhian economics that largely relies on cottage industries. However, we simply ain't ready for that kind of system here, and that's for sure.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
There's very little bauxite in the US, just thanks to geology. Why would it make sense to ship ore from Australia or Asia to the US and refine it there?
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I don't know, China does. It must make some business sense.

About a third of ours also comes from recycling. Also refining from scrap uses a lot less energy.
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
ThePainefulTruth said:
If you're talking about the negative so called conservative commentators, they are members to the Establishment, from both parties. And why should we be horrified?
Click to expand...
One of the biggest aspects of this trade war that Trump is claiming will be easy to win, and his supporters seem oblivious to, is that it won't be unilateral.

In the modern global market the USA doesn't dominate the way it did 40 years ago. Retaliatory tariffs will be very carefully planned by the people being attacked by Trump. Lots of USA manufacturing companies have overseas plants and other investments.

I don't think that we can "win" a trade war any more than we "won" the war against Iraq. This just isn't 1965 any more.
Tom
 
Shad

Shad

Veteran Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
There's very little bauxite in the US, just thanks to geology. Why would it make sense to ship ore from Australia or Asia to the US and refine it there?
Click to expand...

Costs and level of development of various nations, wages of the workers, taxes and tariffs, and trade agreements. A refined product has a higher cost in general. Asia has lagged behind industrial development compared to the US so there could be a lack of refinement industry or limited capacity. Only China has the population and resources and trade to compete but sacrifices worker rights and protection, safety standards and environmental regulations to do so.

Of course there could be personal reasons such as eating a part of profits when practicing economic patriotism.
 
Falvlun

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
He actually did it.

Trump signs Steel and Aluminum Tarriffs

Mexico and Canada are exempt, pending NAFTA agreements. And Trump has left the door open for other countries to strike a deal with him. Trump’s hoping to get around WTO rules by claiming national security. We shall see if that flies.

While steelworkers may applaud the move, construction, automobile manufacturers, and others are wary. Higher steel costs could mean higher costs for them and layoffs to follow.

Notably, Bush Jr tried steel tariffs back in 2002. They didn’t go so well, and were repealed 18 months later.
 
ThePainefulTruth

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Falvlun said:
He actually did it.

Trump signs Steel and Aluminum Tarriffs

Mexico and Canada are exempt, pending NAFTA agreements. And Trump has left the door open for other countries to strike a deal with him. Trump’s hoping to get around WTO rules by claiming national security. We shall see if that flies.

While steelworkers may applaud the move, construction, automobile manufacturers, and others are wary. Higher steel costs could mean higher costs for them and layoffs to follow.

Notably, Bush Jr tried steel tariffs back in 2002. They didn’t go so well, and were repealed 18 months later.
Click to expand...

The goal here is their ultimate repeal as well. He is using tariffs an an economic self-defense measure as is necessary since there are no international anti-trust laws to speak of. It's easier for people to understand being railroaded, than being "steeled" or "aluminumed". :rolleyes: And as Sarah Palin has pointed out, we're in a trade war already, and as with military wars, sacrifices in the immediate with be needed for progress in the long term.

Imagine, a politician, any politician, much less a president, thinking in the long term. But then Trump isn't a politician, he's a businessman.
 
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Falvlun

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
ThePainefulTruth said:
The goal here is their ultimate repeal as well. He is using tariffs an an economic self-defense measure as is necessary since there are no international anti-trust laws to speak of. It's easier for people to understand being railroaded, than being "steeled" or "aluminumed". :rolleyes:
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Who is guilty of anti-trust violations in regards to steel and aluminum? As far as I know, just China. So why are we punishing everyone else? Furthermore, China isn’t even in our top 10 for steel imports. Canada is our top provider, and Mexico isn’t far behind, and both are exempt.

So it doesn’t particularly seem to be about protecting American steel, or about punishing anti-trust violations.

Mostly it seems to be about 2 things:
1) pandering to his base.
2) providing leverage in trade negotiations.

#2 is not about protecting steel itself. It’s about holding it hostage to try to force other countries to give us some concessions in other trade negotiations. It’s a bully tactic. I expect it to blow up spectacularly.

ThePainefulTruth said:
And as Sarah Palin has pointed out, we're in a trade war already, and as with military wars, sacrifices in the immediate with be needed for progress in the long term.
Click to expand...
We weren’t in a trade war. And if they thought we were, they’re in for a rude awakening when they realize what a real trade war is.

ThePainefulTruth said:
Imagine, a politician, any politician, much less a president, thinking in the long term. But then Trump isn't a politician, he's a businessman.
Click to expand...
Oh, spare me. What do you think raising taxes to pay for a social program is? Short term pain for long term progress. What do you think environmental regulations or protections are? Short term pain for long term betterment.

Politicians are very familiar with the concept, thanks.

The question, of course, is will this tarriff work? Will we see progress— will there be more domestic steel manufacturing— or will we just reap higher costs, layoffs, poor trade relations, and ill will?
 
Falvlun

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
ThePainefulTruth said:
He added the exemption for them conditional upon renegotiating NAFTA.
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See #2 above. NAFTA isn’t solely or even primarily about steel and aluminum.

You claimed the tarriffs were about anti-trust violations. What have Canada and Mexico done to violate anti-trust?
 
Falvlun

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
ThePainefulTruth said:
What has NAFTA now got to do with what it is after renegotiation?
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I don’t know what you are trying to say here.

ThePainefulTruth said:
That was referring to the general increase in tariffs.
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Who is increasing tarriffs? Besides, it is my understanding that tarriffs are a method to deal with antitrust issues. What’s the anti-trust issue, besides China, that the US steel tarriffs are addressing?
 
ThePainefulTruth

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Nowhere Man said:
Which countries have the highest tariffs?

What are common reasons for governments to implement tariffs?
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It's complicated because countries can directly tax goods coming in or going out, impose import or export tariffs, or otherwise manipulate corporate income taxes or the value of its currency, or even directly subsidize its countries goods in order to float a favorable overall trade balance. And then there's funneling goods through overt or covert alliances. It all makes it entirely too easy to cook the books. The only red flags are overall trade balances which you then have to dig diligently to find the reason for them. The distinction between taxes and tariffs alone confuses most politicians, much less the people, so we have to rely on trustworthy experts, of which Trump is one of the most qualified.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Trump is not only not an economist, he clearly does not understand the issue of tariffs and trade wars based on the nonsense that he has spewed. And if he's supposedly so smart, why has several of his business enterprises gone into bankruptcy, and why has he been so dishonest, thus often not paying sub-contractors or paying back loans? He's been involved in around 1450 lawsuits, many of which he lost.

And if he's supposedly so smart and honest, why has he continually refused to put forth his tax returns, which he had promised on numerous occasions he would do but never delivered, always finding a lame excuse not to?

But Trump is right about one thing, namely that he can do anything, including shooting a person right in the face, to use his example, and his followers with excuse anything he does. Talk about "blind faith".:rolleyes:
 
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