Troops Punished After Refusing to Attend Evangelical Concert

[tumbleweed41]

There's no need to wonder. Just imagine how you would have reacted had it been a Muslim event.

Indeed. Lets imagine the review.......
Contemporary Islamic music lovers immersed themselves in Alah’s message of peace and blessings during the Yusuf Islam concert July 16 at Fort Eustis’ Jacobs Theater.....


Somehow, I just don't see it happening without the Commanding General ending up being stationed in a remote Antarctic base...

 

[Guitar's Cry]

The idea of an Evangelical Fundamentalist-based army frightens me. I'm glad those two soldiers are working to raise awareness that this stuff happens.

I'm also glad soldiers are able to express themselves spiritually at concerts like that. But, do the other small-percentage spiritual soldiers have the opportunities to do so?

I hope so.

 

[Kathryn]

There's no need to wonder. Just imagine how you would have reacted had it been a Muslim event.

Ok, so you mean what if my son told me that when he was a grunt just out of basic training and still in a highly structured training school, for those of the very lowest military ranks - that there was a free Muslim rock concert (wha...?!) and the troops were told they could either attend it or go back to the barracks and clean the barracks. That's the scenario, correct?

Now keep in mind that concert or no concert - the probability of going back to the barracks and made to clean it rather than talk on one's cellphone or play video games is HIGHLY likely any given evening of the week during AIT (the training you receive straight out of boot camp). Often this is not punishment in any way - it's just what you do. Calling it "lockdown" is a bit over the top considering it's pretty often not a punishment at all, but rather just all in a days' work.

Anyway, let's say my son didn't want to go to the Muslim rock concert and instead chose the lesser of the two evils - cleaning the barracks for a couple of hours.

First of all, I doubt very much that my son would even CARE about this - in fact, he might just as soon go to the Muslim rock concert out of curiousity. But say he felt strongly that he shouldn't - and chose instead to clean the barracks. Say he even got mad. OK - I'd tell him "Go complain to your chain of command." If he told me later, "Hey, Mom, get a load of this - the CO had to APOLOGIZE to all of us!" I'd say, "Wow - I bet that was interesting!" I'm sure he would get a kick out of the whole thing.

And I can ASSURE you, he'd think any soldier that made a bigger deal than that out of it was a pansy *** titty baby.

It would be a mildly entertaining story and honestly - that's about it.

So yes - I think the chain of command worked quite nicely in this scenario. I'd consider it over and done with.

 

[Kathryn]

In what way is his career likely to have been severely damaged?

If a CO is made to apologize to an entire unit of privates, I'm sure that made it's way into his personnel file. Personnel files are raked over with fine tooth combs by members of any promotion board. Now - especially considering the negative attention that this officer's actions played a part in - he's probably made things pretty difficult for himself when he's up for promotion next time.

He's just a captain - which means he's probably pretty young. The next step up is Major, and that's a big promotion. He's almost certainly going to feel the ramifications of this in a negative way.

 

[Kathryn]

The idea of an Evangelical Fundamentalist-based army frightens me. I'm glad those two soldiers are working to raise awareness that this stuff happens.

I'm also glad soldiers are able to express themselves spiritually at concerts like that. But, do the other small-percentage spiritual soldiers have the opportunities to do so?

I hope so.

First of all, consider that 70 percent of active duty military and their families classify themselves as Christians. So naturally, there are more Christian based programs and events - since there are more military members and family members with those particular faith needs, interests, and wants.

Other religions only make up 6% of the military. 23% either claim to be atheist or agnostic, and 1% don't specify.

Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers

As for the spiritual needs of the 6% - considering they are such a tiny minority, I'd say the military does a pretty good job of trying to meet their very diverse needs. Within that 6% you have Muslims, Bahais, Hindus, Buddhists, Jewish, Native American, New Age, Wiccan, Satanists, etc. I would think that it's probably logistically impossible to provide specific chaplains and facilities for every single sliver or facet of diverse religious practice, especially when 1 in 100 soldiers MAY be, say, Wiccan.

That being said, the military DOES try. My family has been stationed on posts with Wiccan chaplains, Hindu and Buddhist chaplains, and a wide variety of religious services being offered, including Satanist services. My daughter is currently living on base at the Air Force Academy, where they not only have Wiccan services, but they even have a Wiccan religious park used specifically and only for Wiccan religious events.

Not sure what the religious or spiritual needs of atheists or agnostics are - can you give me any insight into that? I find the idea of a chaplain that doesn't practice a religion or is a nontheist to be sort of odd - wouldn't he or she be more of a counselor or psychologist rather than a chaplain? As for atheist "events," - to be honest, I don't know of any atheist entertainers who are donating their time to the troops, but I'm sure they'd be welcome. I would encourage them to contact the USO and offer to put on events for the military. The troops love a free concert or show!

 

[tumbleweed41]

We are not talking about the traditional practice of providing chaplains and worship centers for various beliefs.
We are talking about an Evangelical /Revivalist Christian concert sponsored and promoted by Fort Eustis, a Government entity, and it officers, Government employees.
Do you not see the difference?

 

[Kathryn]

I was speaking of the policy of having Military sponsored "revivals".

(Read the official base newspapers review.)

The military often allows entertainers and groups of all sorts to donate their time and their equipment/shows to the troops. For whatever reason, Christian and country groups and artists are especially generous with their donations of free shows to the military and their families - and their generosity is very much appreciated.

I have been unable to find any indication in any of my research that shows or even implies that the military paid these artists a single penny for their concerts. The concerts were free to military and their families. If anyone can find any evidence that these artists were paid by the military for these shows, please direct me to the source of your information.

Also, I'd like to know if any other sorts of religious music groups even offered to donate their time for this particular program.

If they donated their services, I don't see the problem with the Commanding General’s Spiritual Fitness Concert Series - as long as attendance was optional. This would be no different from the free concerts my daughter attended when she was stationed in Iraq. By the way, she's never cared for country music, but after attending several free country music concerts donated by various artists, she has a new appreciation for that genre.

As I've stated repeatedly, if anyone was truly forced to either attend or be punished (cleaning the barracks during AIT is not necessarily a punishment) then that's unacceptable, and the officer in charge should probably publically apologize to his unit. Oops, he already did? Alright then.

Fort Eustis is in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia, which is where my daughter is stationed. Here's a link to USO shows in that area - most of which are performed in military facilities for military personnel and families:
USO of Hampton Roads - Supporting Our Troops
Calendar and Gallery of Events
USO of Hampton Roads Programs and Services

Here is the 2010 schedule of free USO concerts:

USO | Support Our Troops | Entertainment | 2010 Tour Schedule


Wow, a very, very wide variety of free entertainment there - and all of it aimed directly at active duty military, and performed on military installations using military facilities.

If they can perform, why can't Christian artists perform also?

 

[Kathryn]

We are not talking about the traditional practice of providing chaplains and worship centers for various beliefs.
We are talking about an Evangelical /Revivalist Christian concert sponsored and promoted by Fort Eustis, a Government entity, and it officers, Government employees.
Do you not see the difference?

It would be a problem IF other religious artists were denied the opportunity to perform FREE concerts on post.

Do you have any evidence that artists representing other religious views were barred from donating their time?

 

[Kathryn]

GASP - here are some MORE religious events/goings on/supplies that are financially supported by the US military:

Jewish Prayer Books for active duty personnel
Purim celebrations at Fort Hood
Hannukah celebrations on Scott AFB
The only functioning synagogue in Iraq (on Al Asad Airbase)
Jews in Green : Suffolk Y JCC Sponsors Military LecturesJewish WWI Soldier’s Honor May Receive UpgradeRabbi Boteach takes on DADTOne of my Jewish Nam experiencesThe President’s Decision to Avoid Arlington on Memorial DayJewish Fleet Week

Wiccan outdoor circle for worship and Sabbats Academy chapel to add outdoor circle to worship areas
Air Force Academy Gives Pagans, Druids and Wiccans Place To Worship
US ARMY CHAPLAIN'S HANDBOOK: EXCERPT ON WICCA

Muslim Chaplains conferences
Ramadan cultural awareness training for commanders
http://www.bragg.army.mil/82dv/Static Line/vol. 1, issue 2.pdf
Memorials with any sort of desired religious symbols at military cemeteries
(in military cemeteries, Muslim soldiers are buried on their sides, facing Mecca)
Ramadan celebrations
DVIDS - Images - Local Afghans, Coalition Forces Celebrate the End of Ramadan at Bagram Air Field

Buddhist Wesak celebrations
The U.S. Army’s First Buddhist Chaplain Performs Military Wesak Celebration « Rev. Danny Fisher

Remember, the Constitution does not guarantee us freedom FROM religion - it simply guarantees freedom OF religion. It is not against Department of Defense policy to provide both services and entertainment for the wide variety of faiths represented by active duty troops. However, keep in mind that since 70 percent of troops profess to be Christians, and only 6 percent profess any other religious belief system - most of the emphasis is going to go toward servicing the spiritual lives of the majority - while allowing freedom of religious expression by the others and offering additional support when possible.

 

[Smoke]

Ok, so you mean what if my son told me that when he was a grunt just out of basic training and still in a highly structured training school, for those of the very lowest military ranks - that there was a free Muslim rock concert (wha...?!) and the troops were told they could either attend it or go back to the barracks and clean the barracks. That's the scenario, correct?

No, it's not. Did you read the story?

 

[Smoke]

Remember, the Constitution does not guarantee us freedom FROM religion - it simply guarantees freedom OF religion.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't guarantee government sponsorship of the religious enthusiasms of military personnel. All this nonsense should be halted.

But what the OP is about is whether enlisted men do in fact have freedom of religion.

 

[Kathryn]

No, it's not. Did you read the story?

Yes, I read the story. Christian concert on base, entry level soldiers in training marched to event (which probably wasn't a long march - it is common practice for platoons in training to march in unison to most events on base during their training). Told upon arrival that they could either stay or go back and clean the barracks. 80 to 100 opted to return to the barracks, where they were made to clean the barracks and not allowed to use their cell phones or play video games or get on their personal computers, till the others returned (two soldiers called this "lockdown," and considered it punitive, but cleaning the barracks in lieu of personal time is pretty common during entry level training, and not necessarily even a punishment).

So in other words, they were not forced to attend the concert. They may or may not have been MILDLY discomforted if they chose not to - and some may consider this a form of punishment - though as far as punishments go, it certainly seems very tame and non abusive.

Was it good judgment to make the guys who didn't go to the concert clean the barracks? Maybe not - but then we also don't know yet if they were made to clean it because they didn't attend the concert, or if it was a regularly scheduled weekly thing, or if some of them got mouthy about something and in response the group was mildly punished. We don't really know WHY they had to clean the barracks.

You're forming opinions based on the word of two soldiers, one of which is anonymous. I am waiting to hear from other soldiers who were there before I get lambastic.

 

[Kathryn]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't guarantee government sponsorship of the religious enthusiasms of military personnel. All this nonsense should be halted.

But what the OP is about is whether enlisted men do in fact have freedom of religion.

Really? We have Hindu chaplains, Buddhist chaplains, Jewish and Muslim chaplains - and along with those chaplains, all sorts of government sponsorship of their various congregations' activities and enthusiasms.

All of my children in the military are enlisted and have complete freedom of religion.

We have an all volunteer military. Entry level, basic training and AIT privates have very limited personal freedom of any sort - heck, they can't even decide when to go to bed, or when to brush their teeth! But these restrictions are very temporary.

However, many military schools and training programs by their very nature are temporarily restrictive and, well, ******* - but they're also very short lived.

 

[Smoke]

Yes, I read the story. Christian concert on base, entry level soldiers in training marched to event (which probably wasn't a long march - it is common practice for platoons in training to march in unison to most events on base during their training). Told upon arrival that they could either stay or go back and clean the barracks. 80 to 100 opted to return to the barracks, where they were made to clean the barracks and not allowed to use their cell phones or play video games or get on their personal computers, till the others returned (two soldiers called this "lockdown," and considered it punitive, but cleaning the barracks in lieu of personal time is pretty common during entry level training, and not necessarily even a punishment).

The soldier named in the story is a Pfc, or E-3, meaning he's been in the army at least a year. He is not a new recruit.

You're forming opinions based on the word of two soldiers, one of which is anonymous. I am waiting to hear from other soldiers who were there before I get lambastic.

"Lambastic" is a new word for me, but it seems to me that you aren't withholding judgment at all; you've trivialized the complaint at some length and have made it clear that you think it's without merit.

 

[Smoke]

Really? We have Hindu chaplains, Buddhist chaplains, Jewish and Muslim chaplains - and along with those chaplains, all sorts of government sponsorship of their various congregations' activities and enthusiasms.

All of my children in the military are enlisted and have complete freedom of religion.

They're entitled to complete freedom of religion. They're not entitled to have their religions subsidized by the public.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There is a big difference between cleaning your room because you are probably going to do it anyways, and being told to go clean it because you don't want to partake in an event that promotes religious ideologies that you don't believe in. On a personal level, it infuriates me to know that military religious freedom is apparently taking a few steps back and tax payers money is being used to illegally promote religion. It is also infuriating knowing that some soldiers, including one who is not a new recruit, was punished for not attending this event.

 

[Kathryn]

They're entitled to complete freedom of religion. They're not entitled to have their religions subsidized by the public.

Every chaplain, every church and every place of worship, every religious ceremony or observation - Christian, Wiccan, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, you name it - on a military installation is subsidized by the public.

 

[Kathryn]

The soldier named in the story is a Pfc, or E-3, meaning he's been in the army at least a year. He is not a new recruit.

If a soldier has some college, they can come into the military as an E-3 - they can be in basic training and be an E-3.

But the Associated Press stories I've read list the named soldier as PVT Smith. This is not an e-3 - this is an e-1 or e-2. An E-3 is a Private First Class - or PFC.

It's not really all that important a distinction, but I haven't read any articles that name him as a PFC. If you have a source, feel free to share it.

Fort Eustis troops: Skipping Christian concert got us punished | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com

The Army said Friday it was investigating a claim that dozens of soldiers who refused to attend a Christian band's concert at a Virginia military base were banished to their barracks and told to clean them up.

(Notice that it is not dozens of soldiers claiming this - it is TWO soldiers claiming that dozens of soldiers were punished.)

(Also notice the term "banished to their barracks." Dramatic. It could also mean that they were given a simple choice - go to the event or go to the barracks. Most trainees are "banished to their barracks" every evening.)

(Also note - the Army IS investigating this, and why? Because if it DID happen as the two soldiers are claiming, then it is a clear violation of military policy, and someone will be in definite trouble.)

Fort Eustis spokesman Rick Haverinen told The Associated Press he couldn't comment on the specifics of the investigation. At the Pentagon, Army spokesman Col. Thomas Collins said the military shouldn't impose religious views on soldiers.

"If something like that were to have happened, it would be contrary to Army policy," Collins said.

Pvt. Anthony Smith said he and other soldiers felt pressured to attend the May concert while stationed at the Newport News base, home of the Army's Transportation Corps.

(Were they pressured, or did they simply FEEL pressured? Pressured in the sense that if they didn't go, they would have to do what they have to do nearly every other night - return to their barracks?)

"My whole issue was I don't need to be preached at," Smith said in a phone interview from Phoenix, where he is stationed with the National Guard. "That's not what I signed up for."

Smith, 21, was stationed in Virginia for nearly seven months for helicopter electrician training when the Christian rock group BarlowGirl played as part of the "Commanding General's Spiritual Fitness Concerts."

Smith said a staff sergeant told 200 men in their barracks they could either attend or remain in their barracks. Eighty to 100 decided not to attend, he said.

(OK - follow me here. They had not left the barracks according to Smith, when they were told they could either REMAIN in the barracks or go to the concert. 80 to 100 decided not to go. What's this? What's this about being forced to march TO the concert, people falling out of formation complaining, etc. that we've read in other versions of this story? When did this happen, if they were told in the barracks that they could either go or stay? Which version from these two soldiers is correct?)

"Instead of being released to our personal time, we were locked down," Smith said. "It seemed very much like a punishment."

("Locked down." You mean - stay in the barracks and don't go anywhere else, like the usual routine? What - do you think that if the other guys get to go somewhere, you should too? What if it wasn't a Christian band, but just some band you didn't like, and you didn't want to go see? Does the military installation have to orchestrate free concerts to fit every musical taste on the same night to make sure that everyone gets a free concert and gets to leave the barracks?)


The Military Religious Freedom Foundation first reported on the Christian concert. The foundation said it was approached by soldiers (apparently, two soldiers) who were punished (ALLEGEDLY punished) for not attending or offended by the religious theme of the event.

The group's president (certainly not a neutral source), Mikey Weinstein, claims Christian-themed events are "ubiquitous" throughout the military, and he credited the soldiers for stepping forward. (Well, of course he would.)

"Whenever we see this egregious, unconstitutional religious tyranny our job is to fight it," he said.

Smith said he and the other soldiers were told not to use their cell phones or personal computers and ordered to clean up the barracks.

(OH, the TYRANNY! OH, the HORROR! Listen, this sort of evening activity is perfectly normal and not even necessarily a form of punishment in the military - we have no way of knowing, based on these flimsy reports, whether or not this was a punishment, or WHY this particular group may have been being punished. The military often punishes a group for the actions of one or two - could it be that someone in the group was mouthing off, or insubordinate?)

About 20 of the men, including several Muslims, refused to attend the concert based on their religious beliefs, he said.

(OK - and they were not forced to attend.)

Smith said he went up the chain of command and traced the concert edict to a captain, who said he simply wanted to "show support for those kind of events that bring soldiers together."

While not accepting blame, the officer apologized to the soldiers who refused to attend the concert and said it was not his intent to proselytize, he said.
"But once you get in there, you realize it's evangelization," Smith said.

(So - PVT Smith used the chain of command and the system for filing a complaint, and in response to his proper utilization of this chain of command, a Captain issued a formal apology to the soldiers in his command. Seems fair enough, especially since no one was forced to attend, and no one was severely punished (if at all) or mistreated for NOT attending. People, people - two hours of barracks clean up at a training school is at least a WEEKLY event. Cell phones, video games, etc are ALWAYS restricted in these settings, and their use is limited even when there is no punishment involved.

We do not have "the rest of the story." It may turn out that these soldiers truly were mistreated, but so far all we've heard is allegations by two out of two hundred soldiers. If their story is true, surely more evidence will manifest over the course of the investigation. But right now, it's looking pretty flimsy.)

 

[Revoltingest]

Every chaplain, every church and every place of worship, every religious ceremony or observation - Christian, Wiccan, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, you name it - on a military installation is subsidized by the public.

I wonder if atheists could get an evolutionary biologist, since we don't have ministers, chaplains, etc?\
If not, then a hooker would do.

 

[Kathryn]

I wonder if atheists could get an evolutionary biologist, since we don't have ministers, chaplains, etc?\
If not, then a hooker would do.

I'll see what strings I can pull for you.