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trinity, godhead, or neither

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Aqualung, Aug 24, 2005.

  1. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the clarification - it still isn't clear to me, but I don't think the purpose of the trinity doctrine was to clarify anything. If it did anything it made what was already vague in the scriptures more vague and confusing. :)
     
  2. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Trinity, for me.:)
     
  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (KJV)
     
  4. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Difference in interpretation. What's your point? Either way it is not sufficient evidence for deifying Jesus.
     
  5. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Well if that's not enough Scripture to convince you that Jesus is God, simply add more:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us - John 1:1,14

    ... only begotten Son ... - John 1:18; 3:16,18; Hebrews 11:7; 1 John 4:9

    I and my Father are one - John 10:30

    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. - 1 Timothy 3:16

    Howbeit Jesus suffered him [maniac of Gadara] not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee. And he departed and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel. - Mark 5:19-20

    To name just a few.
     
  6. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    The word, who is Jesus christ ,is Jehovah Gods spokeman and he was in the heavens with JehovahGod before he came to the earth as a man.
    Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man...john 3;13


    (John 6:38) because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me

    (John 8:23) So he went on to say to them: "YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.​


    (John 8:42) Jesus said to them: "If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.​


    (1 Corinthians 15:47) The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven.​


    (Ephesians 4:9) Now the expression "he ascended," what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower regions, that is, the earth?.....and when he was down here his Fathers voice from heaven said

    (Matthew 3:17) Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved."​


    (Luke 9:35) And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him."..........so the bible tells me that there is Jehovah God and his son Jesus christ

     
  7. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Quanity does not always equal quality. Sorry I do not have time to answer all these individually. Luckily someone else has already done the work. Have a nice read.

    http://biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=85

    http://biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=88

    http://biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=90

    By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. :confused: Perhaps you meant another verse?

    http://biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=102

    http://biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=132
     
  8. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    No problem, Maize. Every one of those sites had to go "outside the book" to prove its case. That's because the KJV is a closed system, immune from outside interference. In other words, you have to go to outside sources (Greek, NIV] to "prove" it wrong. (I know, it's circular logic. I've heard that before, and frankly, I'm wondering if that's not so bad a claim.)

    I'll leave you with this little ditty I once made up, to demonstrate how you sound:

    Bob takes Sue to a Greek restaurant:

    Waitress: May I take your order?
    Sue: I'll have the Perch Dinner.
    Bob: ewww! I didn't know you liked 'eel'.
    Sue: eel? I ordered Perch.
    Bob: No, you ordered 'eel'.
    Sue: ???
    Waitress: Yes, Perch comes from the word perchea, which means 'eel'.
    Sue: But it says 'Perch' in English???
    Waitress: Yes, but you gotta understand Greek if your're gonna eat here.
    Sue: Then what do you suggest?
    Bob: Try the eriea, it means: denizen of Lake Erie; perch
     
  9. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    IT IS claimed that scriptures support the Trinity. But when carefully examined, they offer no actual support. Such texts only illustrate that when considering any claimed support for the Trinity, one must ask: Does the interpretation harmonize with the consistent teaching of the entire Bible—that Jehovah God alone is Supreme? If not, then the interpretation must be in error.




    We also need to keep in mind that not even so much as one "proof text" says that God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are one in some mysterious Godhead. Not one scripture anywhere in the Bible says that all three are the same in substance, power, and eternity. The Bible is consistent in revealing Almighty God, Jehovah, as alone Supreme, Jesus as his created Son, and the holy spirit as God’s active force

     
  10. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Well with logic like that, how dare I argue? :rolleyes:
     
  11. Jensen

    Jensen Active Member

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    No, because God is an individual, and Jesus is the Son.

    Jensen:bounce
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Jensen,

    I'm confused. You disagreed with Aqualung, and yet he stated essentially the same thing you did -- that the Father and the Son are distinct individuals. What were you trying to say? (I have a feeling there may be others who are as confused by your statement as I am.)

    Kathryn
     
  13. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Hi, Katzpur. Maybe I was the one confused. I thought Aqualung meant that there is only one God, and this one God can only be in one place at one time. In other words, look at Him one way, you see the Father, another way and you see the Son, and another way and you see the Holy Spirit.

    What I meant was that the Father is at Point A, the Son at Point B, and the Spirit at Point C, and yet you still have the Son at Point A, the Spirit at Point B, and the Father at Point C, etc.

    Is that a mystery or what!?
     
  14. Jensen

    Jensen Active Member

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    I believe that trinity means three, not one. I believe that God is not a classification, species, or essense that has three persons that are of that one. God is one Almighty God, and Jesus is the Son of God just as the bible says so many times.
     
  15. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Jensen, you're right on this. Trinity refers to 3 distinct, whereas Triune refers to 3-in-1.

    I personally prefer the term 'Godhead'.
     
  16. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    No, that is incorrect. Trinity refers to three in one. There is no difference in meaning between the words triune and trinity except that trinity is a noun and triune an adjective. The concept of the Trinity is not, and never was, that of three distinct gods nor of one God with three modes or facets. The Trinity doctrine is that God is one in three Hypostases.

    James
     
  17. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Well, like I said, God's preference is the word 'Godhead', and that's what I try to use as much as possible. This is a very good example of what happens when people change words in the Bible. They change it from 'Godhead' to 'Trinity', then argue that the word 'Trinity' is not in the Bible, or even argue what it means. Same thing for the word 'Rapture'. It's no wonder Jesus wept.
     
  18. Jensen

    Jensen Active Member

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    I"m not sure you understand what I mean. I believe that God is one. One, not a trinity, not a triune God, not three distint persons that are one God, but that God is one. And one only.

    Do you see what I mean and believe? :bounce
     
  19. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I think that where I (and others) may be confused is that if you're a Christian, you've kind of ignored somebody -- be it God the Father, the Son Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost. On the other hand, you may be saying that you believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, but not divine. I'm just trying to get a feel for what you believe, and I don't think I'm doing very well. Now if you're not a Christian in the first place, what you're saying makes perfect sense.
     
  20. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I probably should let Aqualung speak for himself (Where are you, Aqualung? :shout ), but I feel 100% safe in saying that he would not agree with you.

    ;) That would be an understatement! (Which is probably one reason why I don't believe it to be true. I think God actually wants us to understand who He is. And I'm pretty sure that when Jesus was in Galilee, He wasn't simultaneously in Jerusalem. ;)
     
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