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trinity, godhead, or neither

jonny

Well-Known Member
IacobPersul said:
This is slightly bonkers. The word Trinity means precisely the same thing as triunity, it means three in one. We use the word triune as well, as in the phrase 'the Triune God', triune being the adjectival form of Trinity, but there's really no need to change the noun used - you're not gaining anything (except one superfluous vowel).

One thing I have noticed on this thread is that two false understandings of what the Trinity doctrine is have come up. First, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not aspects of one being - that belief is called modalism and is a monist rather than Trinitarian belief. Second, the three Divine Hypostases (usually, and poorly, translated into English as Persons) are not separate beings - that would be Tritheism. The actual doctrine of the Trinity is that God is one Essence in three Persons. This seems strange to us as a human being is one person, but nonetheless, that is what the Trinity says: God is one in three Persons. Every person we know here is one in Essence (that being their humanity) and one person (that being their actual self). God is uniquely Divine in Essence but is three unique Persons (actually, not really as the word Hypostasis does not mean what we mean by person as that includes their essence, but English doesn't have a better word for the concept).

I have no idea whether this seems at all clear - it's a difficult concept to explain and I'm no theologian - but I hope that people will see the difference between the three positions outlined above.

James
Thanks for the clarification - it still isn't clear to me, but I don't think the purpose of the trinity doctrine was to clarify anything. If it did anything it made what was already vague in the scriptures more vague and confusing. :)
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Maize said:
Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form. (NIV)
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (KJV)
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
AV1611 said:
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (KJV)

Difference in interpretation. What's your point? Either way it is not sufficient evidence for deifying Jesus.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Maize said:
Difference in interpretation. What's your point? Either way it is not sufficient evidence for deifying Jesus.
Well if that's not enough Scripture to convince you that Jesus is God, simply add more:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us - John 1:1,14

... only begotten Son ... - John 1:18; 3:16,18; Hebrews 11:7; 1 John 4:9

I and my Father are one - John 10:30

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. - 1 Timothy 3:16

Howbeit Jesus suffered him [maniac of Gadara] not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee. And he departed and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel. - Mark 5:19-20

To name just a few.
 

may

Well-Known Member
IacobPersul said:
Those word both be from the same book that tells us that the Word was with God was God and Incarnated as Jesus Christ, right?

James
The word, who is Jesus christ ,is Jehovah Gods spokeman and he was in the heavens with JehovahGod before he came to the earth as a man.
Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man...john 3;13


(John 6:38) because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me

(John 8:23) So he went on to say to them: "YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.​


(John 8:42) Jesus said to them: "If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.​


(1 Corinthians 15:47) The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven.​


(Ephesians 4:9) Now the expression "he ascended," what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower regions, that is, the earth?.....and when he was down here his Fathers voice from heaven said

(Matthew 3:17) Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved."​


(Luke 9:35) And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him."..........so the bible tells me that there is Jehovah God and his son Jesus christ

 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
AV1611 said:
Well if that's not enough Scripture to convince you that Jesus is God, simply add more.

Quanity does not always equal quality. Sorry I do not have time to answer all these individually. Luckily someone else has already done the work. Have a nice read.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us - John 1:1,
http://biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=85

John 1:14
http://biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=88

... only begotten Son ... - John 1:18; 3:16,18;
http://biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=90

Hebrews 11:7;
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. :confused: Perhaps you meant another verse?

I and my Father are one - John 10:30
http://biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=102

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. - 1 Timothy 3:16
http://biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=132
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Maize said:
Quanity does not always equal quality. Sorry I do not have time to answer all these individually. Luckily someone else has already done the work. Have a nice read.
No problem, Maize. Every one of those sites had to go "outside the book" to prove its case. That's because the KJV is a closed system, immune from outside interference. In other words, you have to go to outside sources (Greek, NIV] to "prove" it wrong. (I know, it's circular logic. I've heard that before, and frankly, I'm wondering if that's not so bad a claim.)

I'll leave you with this little ditty I once made up, to demonstrate how you sound:

Bob takes Sue to a Greek restaurant:

Waitress: May I take your order?
Sue: I'll have the Perch Dinner.
Bob: ewww! I didn't know you liked 'eel'.
Sue: eel? I ordered Perch.
Bob: No, you ordered 'eel'.
Sue: ???
Waitress: Yes, Perch comes from the word perchea, which means 'eel'.
Sue: But it says 'Perch' in English???
Waitress: Yes, but you gotta understand Greek if your're gonna eat here.
Sue: Then what do you suggest?
Bob: Try the eriea, it means: denizen of Lake Erie; perch
 

may

Well-Known Member
IT IS claimed that scriptures support the Trinity. But when carefully examined, they offer no actual support. Such texts only illustrate that when considering any claimed support for the Trinity, one must ask: Does the interpretation harmonize with the consistent teaching of the entire Bible—that Jehovah God alone is Supreme? If not, then the interpretation must be in error.




We also need to keep in mind that not even so much as one "proof text" says that God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are one in some mysterious Godhead. Not one scripture anywhere in the Bible says that all three are the same in substance, power, and eternity. The Bible is consistent in revealing Almighty God, Jehovah, as alone Supreme, Jesus as his created Son, and the holy spirit as God’s active force

 

Jensen

Active Member
Aqualung said:
I'm not really a big trinity authority, but I think the concept is just different views of the same god, not three seperate things. some people may refer to that as a godhead, but godhead in my view is a concept of three seperate beings. They are not just three views of one god. They are seperate and distinct, though united it purpose.

If you say that God is one, isn't that the trinity? Doesn't that make you beleive that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are one God, but just different views or facets of the same God?
No, because God is an individual, and Jesus is the Son.

Jensen:bounce
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Jensen said:
No, because God is an individual, and Jesus is the Son.

Jensen:bounce
Jensen,

I'm confused. You disagreed with Aqualung, and yet he stated essentially the same thing you did -- that the Father and the Son are distinct individuals. What were you trying to say? (I have a feeling there may be others who are as confused by your statement as I am.)

Kathryn
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Katzpur said:
Jensen,

I'm confused. You disagreed with Aqualung, and yet he stated essentially the same thing you did -- that the Father and the Son are distinct individuals. What were you trying to say? (I have a feeling there may be others who are as confused by your statement as I am.)

Kathryn
Hi, Katzpur. Maybe I was the one confused. I thought Aqualung meant that there is only one God, and this one God can only be in one place at one time. In other words, look at Him one way, you see the Father, another way and you see the Son, and another way and you see the Holy Spirit.

What I meant was that the Father is at Point A, the Son at Point B, and the Spirit at Point C, and yet you still have the Son at Point A, the Spirit at Point B, and the Father at Point C, etc.

Is that a mystery or what!?
 

Jensen

Active Member
Katzpur said:
Jensen,

I'm confused. You disagreed with Aqualung, and yet he stated essentially the same thing you did -- that the Father and the Son are distinct individuals. What were you trying to say? (I have a feeling there may be others who are as confused by your statement as I am.)

Kathryn
I believe that trinity means three, not one. I believe that God is not a classification, species, or essense that has three persons that are of that one. God is one Almighty God, and Jesus is the Son of God just as the bible says so many times.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Jensen said:
I believe that trinity means three, not one. I believe that God is not a classification, species, or essense that has three persons that are of that one. God is one Almighty God, and Jesus is the Son of God just as the bible says so many times.
Jensen, you're right on this. Trinity refers to 3 distinct, whereas Triune refers to 3-in-1.

I personally prefer the term 'Godhead'.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
AV1611 said:
Jensen, you're right on this. Trinity refers to 3 distinct, whereas Triune refers to 3-in-1.

I personally prefer the term 'Godhead'.
No, that is incorrect. Trinity refers to three in one. There is no difference in meaning between the words triune and trinity except that trinity is a noun and triune an adjective. The concept of the Trinity is not, and never was, that of three distinct gods nor of one God with three modes or facets. The Trinity doctrine is that God is one in three Hypostases.

James
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
IacobPersul said:
No, that is incorrect. Trinity refers to three in one. There is no difference in meaning between the words triune and trinity except that trinity is a noun and triune an adjective. The concept of the Trinity is not, and never was, that of three distinct gods nor of one God with three modes or facets. The Trinity doctrine is that God is one in three Hypostases.

James
Well, like I said, God's preference is the word 'Godhead', and that's what I try to use as much as possible. This is a very good example of what happens when people change words in the Bible. They change it from 'Godhead' to 'Trinity', then argue that the word 'Trinity' is not in the Bible, or even argue what it means. Same thing for the word 'Rapture'. It's no wonder Jesus wept.
 

Jensen

Active Member
AV1611 said:
Jensen, you're right on this. Trinity refers to 3 distinct, whereas Triune refers to 3-in-1.

I personally prefer the term 'Godhead'.
I"m not sure you understand what I mean. I believe that God is one. One, not a trinity, not a triune God, not three distint persons that are one God, but that God is one. And one only.

Do you see what I mean and believe? :bounce
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Jensen said:
I"m not sure you understand what I mean. I believe that God is one. One, not a trinity, not a triune God, not three distint persons that are one God, but that God is one. And one only.

Do you see what I mean and believe? :bounce
I think that where I (and others) may be confused is that if you're a Christian, you've kind of ignored somebody -- be it God the Father, the Son Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost. On the other hand, you may be saying that you believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, but not divine. I'm just trying to get a feel for what you believe, and I don't think I'm doing very well. Now if you're not a Christian in the first place, what you're saying makes perfect sense.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
AV1611 said:
Hi, Katzpur. Maybe I was the one confused. I thought Aqualung meant that there is only one God, and this one God can only be in one place at one time. In other words, look at Him one way, you see the Father, another way and you see the Son, and another way and you see the Holy Spirit.

What I meant was that the Father is at Point A, the Son at Point B, and the Spirit at Point C, and yet you still have the Son at Point A, the Spirit at Point B, and the Father at Point C, etc.
I probably should let Aqualung speak for himself (Where are you, Aqualung? :shout ), but I feel 100% safe in saying that he would not agree with you.

Is that a mystery or what!?
;) That would be an understatement! (Which is probably one reason why I don't believe it to be true. I think God actually wants us to understand who He is. And I'm pretty sure that when Jesus was in Galilee, He wasn't simultaneously in Jerusalem. ;)
 
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