Trinitarians and Christening

[Windwalker]

The scriptures are made for all who read its pages. It requires no special knowledge or qualifications. Interpretation of its pages are but child's play so as to allow all to read its pages and understand the messages it contains.

You really seriously believe this? You know how much of the original cultures? How much of the original languages themselves, or the contexts in which they were spoken? You know how much about how each individual looking at the same thing will always, always see things differently, not matter what it is, scripture or otherwise?

No, you are indeed building high your religious walls to block out God. IMHO.

 

[Windwalker]

I do think that actually, or at least until we next sin anyway but partaking of the sacrament takes care of that. I know, He has thought of everything in order for us to recieve eternal life with our God. That is why it is called Baptism for the remission of sins. What do you think that baptism achieves, if not to Accept Jesus as the Christ, clean the inner vessel and dedicate our live to serving Him.

That is not cleaning the inside of the vessel. That's simply an outward act, and any fool can take a dunk in a tank. You know when Jesus said to make clean the inside of the cup? He was talking the religious folks, like you, who mistook doing all the outward forms as their salvation. He said, "Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean." In the next verse he said, "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean."

You are preaching the outside of the tomb cleaning. The more religious folks are, they more they avoid the real work of cleaning the inside of the cup. "By their fruits you shall know them", not by their baptism.

 

[Windwalker]

Let me add what I just read in that verse, "First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean." Why, "and then the outside also will be clean"? Because it is an inner work, and interior thing. If you have that clean through Spirit (not water in a tank) the outside will clean itself right up naturally. Baptism is nothing.

This is also right in line with what Jesus said about the two great commandments, "Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength [these are all interior actions of the will, not outward acts of baptism], and the second is like unto it, love your neighbor as yourself". See the progression? Make clean the inside of the cup in a vertical, interior move, a seeking of the heart, and then, naturally, you will make clean the outside of the cup by loving your neighbor as yourself, not getting baptized!, but loving others as an extension of yourself as you love God. Why? Because "love is the fulfillment of the law". "Love works no ill". It's a spiritual realization, not a religious act of baptism that makes the inside of the cup clean.

Religious dictates of salvation through baptism, is substitute spirituality, a substitute for the inner work of facing God, and dying to yourself in order to be filled with that Light, and thus fulfill all laws.

 

[4consideration]

Let me add what I just read in that verse, "First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean." Why, "and then the outside also will be clean"? Because it is an inner work, and interior thing. If you have that clean through Spirit (not water in a tank) the outside will clean itself right up naturally. Baptism is nothing.

This is also right in line with what Jesus said about the two great commandments, "Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength [these are all interior actions of the will, not outward acts of baptism], and the second is like unto it, love your neighbor as yourself". See the progression? Make clean the inside of the cup in a vertical, interior move, a seeking of the heart, and then, naturally, you will make clean the outside of the cup by loving your neighbor as yourself, not getting baptized!, but loving others as an extension of yourself as you love God. Why? Because "love is the fulfillment of the law". "Love works no ill". It's a spiritual realization, not a religious act of baptism that makes the inside of the cup clean.

Religious dictates of salvation through baptism, is substitute spirituality, a substitute for the inner work of facing God, and dying to yourself in order to be filled with that Light, and thus fulfill all laws.

Well said. I agree.

 

[Serenity7855]

You really seriously believe this? You know how much of the original cultures? How much of the original languages themselves, or the contexts in which they were spoken? You know how much about how each individual looking at the same thing will always, always see things differently, not matter what it is, scripture or otherwise?

No, you are indeed building high your religious walls to block out God. IMHO.

Yes I really seriously believe this. You don't have to. You can worship the God of your choice.

The Scriptures, IMHO, are not a history of the people of those times or what they did, with whom and for how long. Its contents are a relevant to us today as they were 2000 years ago. Thou Shalt not commit adultery has the same meaning now as it did then. Jesus said that we should use the word of God as a book of commandments to guide us down that straight and narrow path that leads to life eternal. What matters is if we understand the parable and analogies not what language was spoken or the monitory system they used. That is man using the scriptures to exalt himself by claiming knowledge that pertain to man. The scriptures are for us all to live our lives by.

Secondly, the scriptures are the inspired word of God. Written by men but compiled by God. You do God a dis-service by suggesting that he does not have the capabilities of selecting the writings of man to compile a book of commandments.

I do not think that i am building walls, rather, I am tearing them down to show that the word of god is available to all who seek it. You are suggesting that because of the inconsistencies of man god could not compile his book of commandments. That, of course, is your prerogative. All I can say is "Sooner you then me" I do not want to have to explain that on that great and dreadful day of judgement.

:ctr: Serenity

 

[Serenity7855]

That is not cleaning the inside of the vessel. That's simply an outward act, and any fool can take a dunk in a tank. You know when Jesus said to make clean the inside of the cup? He was talking the religious folks, like you, who mistook doing all the outward forms as their salvation. He said, "Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean." In the next verse he said, "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean."

I fear that you mistake who the recipient of this scripture refers to. You are fitting the scriptures to your belief rather than believing the scriptural message as it is.

You are preaching the outside of the tomb cleaning. The more religious folks are, they more they avoid the real work of cleaning the inside of the cup. "By their fruits you shall know them", not by their baptism.

Oh, I hope that I am not preaching to anybody. I am on a MB expressing my opinions. I would hardly call that preaching.

Baptism is just one fruit of many. You just do not see it as a fruit. If my God tells me that I need it in order to obtain entry into his kingdom then guess what, I am going to get baptized, and have.

:ctr: Serenity

 

[Serenity7855]

Let me add what I just read in that verse, "First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean." Why, "and then the outside also will be clean"? Because it is an inner work, and interior thing. If you have that clean through Spirit (not water in a tank) the outside will clean itself right up naturally. Baptism is nothing.

God said that if you do not repent and become batised you will be damned. I hardly call that nothing, however, I will allow you to answer to God for your assertion

This is also right in line with what Jesus said about the two great commandments, "Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength [these are all interior actions of the will, not outward acts of baptism], and the second is like unto it, love your neighbor as yourself". See the progression? Make clean the inside of the cup in a vertical, interior move, a seeking of the heart, and then, naturally, you will make clean the outside of the cup by loving your neighbor as yourself, not getting baptized!, but loving others as an extension of yourself as you love God. Why? Because "love is the fulfillment of the law". "Love works no ill". It's a spiritual realization, not a religious act of baptism that makes the inside of the cup clean.

These are your interpretations of scripture to which you are entitle. You are expressing them in your words and not Gods. That means that it is an opinion rather than a fact.

Religious dictates of salvation through baptism, is substitute spirituality, a substitute for the inner work of facing God, and dying to yourself in order to be filled with that Light, and thus fulfill all laws.

Wow you have gone through quite a maize to get to that conclusion. The scriptures are simple to allow for everyone to read them. You are complicating them with your own drivel, or that of your faith.. You have changed the entire meaning of baptism to suite your own analogy and agenda. You have insulted the very important mission of John the Baptist. That is not what this is all about. Sadly, you will stick by your words, or the words of man, and condemn me for my simplistic interpretation of scripture. If you do not repent and be baptized, even as Christ was baptized, you will not gain entry into the Kingdom of God. Simples. No complicated tall story to make your own belief fit the scriptures, just the word of God. Of course, one must believe that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. One must have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, which I presume that you mean by the inner vessel being clean. You have complicated it slightly by driving around the buildings only to end up in the same place, minus the rear wheels.

:ctr: Serenity

 

[Desert Snake]

I do not think that i am building walls, rather, I am tearing them down to show that the word of god is available to all who seek it.

:ctr: Serenity

you're teaching against what is explicitly taught in the Bible, anyone with an analytical bone in their body can tell that dunking someone in water and mumbling some incantations isn't going to do anything. I wouldn't be surprised if your beliefs about baptism were invented by non-Christians as a joke.

 

[Serenity7855]

you're teaching against what is explicitly taught in the Bible, anyone with an analytical bone in their body can tell that dunking someone in water and mumbling some incantations isn't going to do anything. I wouldn't be surprised if your beliefs about baptism were invented by non-Christians as a joke.

I am teaching nothing. I am expressing opinions. This is not exactly how I would expect a Christian to reply, especially from someone who quoted the new and everlasting commandment to love one another. Unfortunately, this rebuttal is your fruit. What do you think of it?

No, dunking someone in water and mumbling some incantations isn't going to do anything on its own, your words not mine, thankfully. It is what is written on your heart that caused you to be baptised and your behaviour after coming forth out of the waters of baptism that really counts. To diss your fellow man is surely not good behavior, therefore, baptism may not be for you right now.

I wouldn't be surprised if your beliefs about baptism were invented by non-Christians as a joke

Unlike yourself, I have a mind to think for myself. I do not need to following the teaching of imperfect men to know that Baptism, and all it entails, is a requirement. The Spirit of God has told me.

I am sorry to see that you have let yourself down by exposing your bitter fruit of hostility. Unfortunately, Satan, the father of all lies, would be extremely please to see the children of men abstaining from baptism on the advise of those who feel it is unnecessary. Thankfully, I know better than that and will not be heeding your claims.

:ctr: Serenity

 

[Ingledsva]

Yes I really seriously believe this. You don't have to. You can worship the God of your choice.

The Scriptures, IMHO, are not a history of the people of those times or what they did, with whom and for how long. Its contents are a relevant to us today as they were 2000 years ago. Thou Shalt not commit adultery has the same meaning now as it did then. Jesus said that we should use the word of God as a book of commandments to guide us down that straight and narrow path that leads to life eternal. What matters is if we understand the parable and analogies not what language was spoken or the monitory system they used. That is man using the scriptures to exalt himself by claiming knowledge that pertain to man. The scriptures are for us all to live our lives by.

Secondly, the scriptures are the inspired word of God. Written by men but compiled by God. You do God a dis-service by suggesting that he does not have the capabilities of selecting the writings of man to compile a book of commandments.

I do not think that i am building walls, rather, I am tearing them down to show that the word of god is available to all who seek it. You are suggesting that because of the inconsistencies of man god could not compile his book of commandments. That, of course, is your prerogative. All I can say is "Sooner you then me" I do not want to have to explain that on that great and dreadful day of judgement.

:ctr: Serenity

You have got to be kidding!

Some of those laws say to kill - and you don't think there should be a discussion concerning the meaning and use?

 

[Ingledsva]

I am teaching nothing. I am expressing opinions. This is not exactly how I would expect a Christian to reply, especially from someone who quoted the new and everlasting commandment to love one another. Unfortunately, this rebuttal is your fruit. What do you think of it?

No, dunking someone in water and mumbling some incantations isn't going to do anything on its own, your words not mine, thankfully. It is what is written on your heart that caused you to be baptised and your behaviour after coming forth out of the waters of baptism that really counts. To diss your fellow man is surely not good behavior, therefore, baptism may not be for you right now.



Unlike yourself, I have a mind to think for myself. I do not need to following the teaching of imperfect men to know that Baptism, and all it entails, is a requirement. The Spirit of God has told me.

I am sorry to see that you have let yourself down by exposing your bitter fruit of hostility. Unfortunately, Satan, the father of all lies, would be extremely please to see the children of men abstaining from baptism on the advise of those who feel it is unnecessary. Thankfully, I know better than that and will not be heeding your claims.

:ctr: Serenity

So you think all have to be baptized - then what about children that die? - What about death-bed conversions? How about people that accept Jesus - then die on the way to the baptism? How about prisoners not allowed baptism?

Rather negates the Jesus idea that - ALL - that call upon his name shall be saved - doesn't it?

 

[Desert Snake]

I didn't post that/

Lol this is the second time in this thread that this has happened. This really goes against my views though holy guacamole can you change that?:biglaugh:

 

[Ingledsva]

I didn't post that/

Lol this is the second time in this thread that this has happened. This really goes against my views though holy guacamole can you change that?:biglaugh:

LOL! Sorry. I went back and looked at the post. Both of you are in the same post without stating which is which - I clicked on his post - but notice it lists under your name. I will watch for that in the future. LOL!

 

[Desert Snake]

Lol I know, happens to me sometimes also.

 

[Ingledsva]

Much better.

 

[Windwalker]

Serenity, your theology is stretched so tightly and so thin you are poised for it to snap on you. And that would be good. In that moment, you let go of these walls of defense you are trying so hard to make impenetrable through your stubbornness. I see this as a spiritual thing for you, one of avoidance. "I must be right! The word of God is plain and simple. See?" You are trying to convince yourself of something by walling yourself off and away from knowledge. You are trying to convince yourself you are accepted by God or something, but in so doing you push God out. God is found in release, not in following the letter of the law.

I came up with a saying yesterday morning that came to mind as I was waking. Theology is our last ditch effort of our minds to understand God before we fail, and do. Although in your case, I don't think your looking and failing in the attempts. I think your hiding behind the Bible in how you wish it to look.

 

[Serenity7855]

So you think all have to be baptized - then what about children that die? - What about death-bed conversions? How about people that accept Jesus - then die on the way to the baptism? How about prisoners not allowed baptism?

Rather negates the Jesus idea that - ALL - that call upon his name shall be saved - doesn't it?

I believe in the Plan of Salvation. The perfect Plan of Salvation. God has made it possible for his Marvelous Work and Wonder to be accomplished and there is provisions for all circumstances.


1. Everyone that reaches the age of Accountability is to be baptised for what use is baptism to a child that has not sinned.

2. Corinthians 15

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

3. Everyone will be given the opportunity to accept Christ and be baptised, whether in this life or in the life to come, by proxy. No one will miss that opportunity.

God has instigated a plan for the children of men that is perfect and encapsulates every eventuality. Oh yee of little faith who doubt this and professes to be more knowledgeable than God himself preaching the doctrines of men instead of the word of God.

:ctr: Serenity

 

[Serenity7855]

Serenity, your theology is stretched so tightly and so thin you are poised for it to snap on you. And that would be good. In that moment, you let go of these walls of defense you are trying so hard to make impenetrable through your stubbornness. I see this as a spiritual thing for you, one of avoidance. "I must be right! The word of God is plain and simple. See?" You are trying to convince yourself of something by walling yourself off and away from knowledge. You are trying to convince yourself you are accepted by God or something, but in so doing you push God out. God is found in release, not in following the letter of the law.

Well if it was going to snap on me surely it would have done just that over the last 20 odd years. It has always been sound doctrine to me and has always enhanced my mortal existence.

I genuinely do not know to what you refer when you say that I am putting up a defense. A defense against what exactly. I am not defending baptism as it is clearly written in the scriptures and defends itself. When the Lord say that even if you look at a woman with lust in your eyes so have you committed adultery does that require explanation. If I defend it am I being stubborn because some men got together and decided that blind people can commit adultery. What do you need explaining about "16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Am I being stubborn by agreeing with the word of God? How can you read the following in any other way but the letter?

Romans 2:

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I believe the Scriptures to be the inspired word of god, written by man and compiled by God. That is my right. I am not trying to convince myself that it is right. I have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and know it is true through the Power of the Holy Ghost. Should you wish to believe in an alternative than that is your prerogative. I am not trying to convince you of anything different. Ask me what my opinion is and I will tell you.

I will not know if my God accepts me until the great and dreadful day of Judgement. I try to live in accordance to the precepts and principles of the Gospel in the hope that my Saviour will bridge the gap and reason with God on my behalf.

If the letter of the law means that I should not bare false witness or commit adultery than I guess I live by the letter of the law. If there is a grey area in a parable then I guess I don't always.

I came up with a saying yesterday morning that came to mind as I was waking. Theology is our last ditch effort of our minds to understand God before we fail, and do. Although in your case, I don't think your looking and failing in the attempts. I think your hiding behind the Bible in how you wish it to look.

It looks as my mind perceive it to look and the spirit dictates. If it were of bad consequence than I am sure that my life, and the happiness that me and mine have enjoyed, would not have been so rewarding. I will soon go to my maker in the knowledge that I did all that I could to follow his teachings and be a good and faithful servant. I have no regrets and I do not complicate it either.

:ctr: Serenity