Trigger: Pedophilia the Orientation?

[Mock Turtle]

I was making the distinction that I can see adults having relationship with 14 or 15 (guess it depends on culture too) though not legal but not 5 or 6.

But the evidence shows otherwise - and perhaps not 5 or 6 but 10 or 11.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But the evidence shows otherwise - and perhaps not 5 or 6 but 10 or 11.

At 5? Relationships-like with two adults?

Can you give a source?

Attraction itself is normal but never heard of an adult relationship with a, say, toddler.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But the evidence shows otherwise - and perhaps not 5 or 6 but 10 or 11.

Mis read. When I think children, I'm thinking under 14.

 

[Mock Turtle]

At 5? Relationships-like with two adults?

Can you give a source?

Attraction itself is normal but never heard of an adult relationship with a, say, toddler.

Any account of paedophile behaviour and experiences will indicate such. Why are you insisting on the lowest ages? These are distorted relationships we are talking about.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Any account of paedophile behaviour and experiences will indicate such. Why are you insisting on the lowest ages? These are distorted relationships we are talking about.

The way you presented it sound like you're saying people attached to children can form relationships with children...in my mind that's people under 14 (culture dependent I guess). If you mean preteens, I can see it but not children (pedophilia).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

And your last sentence is an assumption too, given that many children do have long-term relationships with paedophiles -

Example. I'm thinking children under 14 when I made that comment. Preteens and teens maybe so, but I was thinking lower age group in response to your comment.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Example. I'm thinking children under 14 when I made that comment. Preteens and teens maybe so, but I was thinking lower age group in response to your comment.

Well prepubescents covers the range and what goes on would vary - so often starting within such an age and perhaps continuing into teenage. We are not talking about any relationship being consistently one thing or the other here, given that love and hate are often issues within such relationships.

 

[Mock Turtle]

The way you presented it sound like you're saying people attached to children can form relationships with children...in my mind that's people under 14 (culture dependent I guess). If you mean preteens, I can see it but not children (pedophilia).

But preteens are children. The definition of a child is generally 18 now, for many things, but paedophilia refers to those before puberty, so mainly those lower than age 12 or so.

 

[stvdv]

Simple is good. But oversimplification leads to inadequate conclusions. I don't agree with your conclusion. It may be true for some circumstances and offenders, but not all (though I do agree that touching a child is certainly NOT an act of love).

Mine was not oversimplification, but bringing it back to the root cause

If I were to encapsulate into a single point, like you have done, I would have said: "Bad Beliefs". I suspect there is a grain of truth in that one that can fit into all circumstances of abuse and all offenders (though I believe people can change their beliefs).

"Bad Beliefs" is not the root cause in this context

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But preteens are children. The definition of a child is generally 18 now, for many things, but paedophilia refers to those before puberty, so mainly those lower than age 12 or so.

That's why I'm confused. You were talking to @Estro Felino with this statement.

Going back to this comment, though "I don't think this is true either, that pedophile are just shallow and look towards the physical aspects. I think some do see their relationships more as love affairs, even if they are delusional as to what is actually going on between them."

I wouldn't say people attracted to children are shallow. I was mentioning that the attraction isn't an orientation as LGBTQ, one because it's not sex related (so it doesn't correlate with LGBTQ in that context), and many people attracted to children (not saying all-but just going off police reports I read awhile back) they don't have a relationship with them and even more so not attracted to them. I'm thinking of specifically children under the age of say 13 not pre-teens and teenagers.

I don't see them and anyone as shallow based on attraction. I just never heard of people attracted to children having a relationship with any child underage. Probably for cultural reasons there is a huge age gap, sure-I agree with what you said, I just find it odd. But I disagree if you mean underage children.

That and attraction can be pure physiological (say lust) or physical, romantic, and emotional. When talking of LGBTQ, they're usually talking about the latter group in relation to orientation. I haven't heard that with pedophiles (don't like that word...kind of like saying 'those gays') when it comes to younger children. I've heard of it with older children-I assume that's what you mean, right?

 

[Mock Turtle]

That's why I'm confused. You were talking to @Estro Felino with this statement.

Going back to this comment, though "I don't think this is true either, that pedophile are just shallow and look towards the physical aspects. I think some do see their relationships more as love affairs, even if they are delusional as to what is actually going on between them."

I wouldn't say people attracted to children are shallow. I was mentioning that the attraction isn't an orientation as LGBTQ, one because it's not sex related (so it doesn't correlate with LGBTQ in that context), and many people attracted to children (not saying all-but just going off police reports I read awhile back) they don't have a relationship with them and even more so not attracted to them. I'm thinking of specifically children under the age of say 13 not pre-teens and teenagers.

I don't see them and anyone as shallow based on attraction. I just never heard of people attracted to children having a relationship with any child underage. Probably for cultural reasons there is a huge age gap, sure-I agree with what you said, I just find it odd. But I disagree if you mean underage children.

That and attraction can be pure physiological (say lust) or physical, romantic, and emotional. When talking of LGBTQ, they're usually talking about the latter group in relation to orientation. I haven't heard that with pedophiles (don't like that word...kind of like saying 'those gays') when it comes to younger children. I've heard of it with older children-I assume that's what you mean, right?

Well I suppose I am meaning here that many paedophiles, as in those attracted to preteens, would see themselves as having a relationship with them and not purely based on physical contact if this does occur. It may be a distorted relationship, and perhaps advanced through guile, deception, and such, but such a relationship then might progress to where the child sees such as a relationship too (even if they are mistaken about the nature of such). It probably happens more often within families, and where I have come across some examples - where the initiation was perhaps about age 9 or 10 and then continued from there. it seems that some of these relationships can be more complex than what is usually projected to the public.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

"Bad Beliefs" is not the root cause in this context

I understand your skepticism but I am wondering on what you are basing this conclusion.

 

[Heyo]

We argue that stigmatization of people with pedophilic sexual interests has undesired indirect effects on risk factors for child sexual abuse, particularly on an emotional and social level. Also, fear of being rejected or treated unethically may prevent pedophilic individuals at risk for sexual offending from confiding in medical practitioners or psychotherapists. Psychologists working with pedophilic individuals in forensic or clinical settings should be aware that stigmatizing people with pedophilia may increase their risk of sexual offending, and provide help to deal with potential stigma-related repercussions.

Yep. That is important and the reason I always object to equating paedophilia and child molestation.
People with paedophilia sometimes need help to not become criminal. And for them being able to get that help it is important that they are 1. not stigmatised and 2. understood. That includes to know that paedophilia is an orientation and that paedophilia is neither criminal nor a mental illness.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Is it possible to run the program that ages people up in photos backwards so it ages them down? If so could they use adults and age them down?

I don't know for sure, but probably.

In fact, come to think about it, I am sure that you can. Have you seen the various "filters" that exist? I have seen those that age people and the reverse. Now those are a bit crude. I found out that there is a growing trend in porn to redo existing porn videos with the faces of famous people. So If one has a thing for Ariana Grande one can pretend to have sex with her. Or if one does not like Nancy Pelosi one can see her doing the nasty and laugh (I seriously hope that there are not people that get off on that , but seeing how weird some people can be I am betting that would allow them to get their yayas too.

I would rather see a pedophile getting off on a video where it only replaced the looks of an actor with a child than to have them abuse children.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yep. That is important and the reason I always object to equating paedophilia and child molestation.
People with paedophilia sometimes need help to not become criminal. And for them being able to get that help it is important that they are 1. not stigmatised and 2. understood. That includes to know that paedophilia is an orientation and that paedophilia is neither criminal nor a mental illness.

Yes, it is the acting on those urges that are criminal. And for those that do not understand morality they will always be immoral. Once again study the concept of informed consent. If a non-human substitute could be found that could solve many child abuse problems.

 

[SomeRandom]

Paedophilia is a 'sexual orientation' like being straight or gay, expert claims

So, a psychologist who works with offending pedophiles, has made the argument that pedophilia is an orientation inasmuch as gay/straight/bi. Meaning that this attraction cannot be changed, not that it should be accepted. And that this should orient the approach towards treating offending and non-offending.

"Treatment, to me, isn’t about modifying the orientation per se, but getting the individual to find more appropriate behaviours to engage in.... An individual can have paedophilic interests without ever acting on these behaviourally. However, as I am working with criminal offenders, my experience is entirely weighted to those who have engaged in this behaviourally."

To report suspected abuse, try these hotlines.

Stop It Now! UK and Ireland | Preventing child sexual abuse

Home - NCMEC

Edit: IMO it's not an orientation, but it is typically resulting from the offender being abused themselves.

They’ve been saying that for decades as far as I know. The only reason it hasn’t been classified as such officially is because of the public backlash.
I think there’s two categories, right? Regressed and I think fixated. Regressed referring to the more opportunistic pedophiles who may actually molest due to other factors outside of sexual attraction. They may even develop the attraction out of trauma to themselves.
And fixated or “true” pedophiles. Pedophiles who legitimately have the sexual attraction and abuse more because they fail to inhibit their desires, rather than opportunistic molestation.
(Please note that the claim of it being an orientation doesn’t mean it should be legal. It’s merely done for classification purposes.)

And now I think I need to take a shower. That was icky to talk about

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yep. That is important and the reason I always object to equating paedophilia and child molestation.
People with paedophilia sometimes need help to not become criminal. And for them being able to get that help it is important that they are 1. not stigmatised and 2. understood. That includes to know that paedophilia is an orientation and that paedophilia is neither criminal nor a mental illness.

I agree up to the point in they needing help. Like LGBQ, it's just an attraction. Age (and sex) doesn't make it any difficult to control attraction that straights and adult.

A lot of child molesters aren't attracted to children and because of the stigma on those who are attracted to child, that will determine whether they would be a possible criminal.

My question is why do some people get this with same sex attraction-we are not possible criminals based on the sex of attraction-but then want to help, blame, or stigmatize based on the others age as if age is an exclusion?

What about the other person's age dictates whether one may be a criminal or just a regular joe with an off taboo attraction?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Another thing is, we aren't attracted to every person we see. So, why would we think just because one is attracted to children, they are attracted to all children? As if they have some addiction.

It reminds me when guys in the locker room find out one guy is gay, they think he's looking at every other guy just because he likes guys.

I have biases too, but I hope our bias don't stigmatize other people-in our minds as well.

 

[stvdv]

"Bad Beliefs" is not the root cause in this context

I understand your skepticism but I am wondering on what you are basing this conclusion.

The context: Someone hurting another being

Beliefs ('good' or 'bad') is something from the mind
Mind is just a bundle of thoughts, NOT feelings
Knowing is something which you can actual feel

Love is all about feeling

Lack of Love is the root cause of hurting others
Because when you FEEL the pain you do to others
You won't hurt them, because you feel the hurt yourself

Hence they always say:
"a narcissist (someone hurting others) lacks empathy/feeling"
@stvdvRF

 

[Mock Turtle]

Another thing is, we aren't attracted to every person we see. So, why would we think just because one is attracted to children, they are attracted to all children? As if they have some addiction.

Perhaps it's just the shortcut for judging others, when we know that indeed many paedophiles will be more attracted to some children just as they will likely have an age range that they would be more interested in too.