Torture, sadistic or spiritual ?

[Nashitheki]

Certainly anyone with an interest of North American Indian cultures have no doubt heard or came across accounts of male prisoners of war being slowly tortured to death by their captors. The main objective was to inflict as much pain as possible, but not to bring about death all too quickly. These acts of torture were usually open to the public and for many of the eastern woodland tribes this was an act of vengeance where the condemned was ridiculed and horribly degraded as a human being while being tortured. This not only dishonored the condemned in the captor’ eyes, but insulted the his tribe as well.

Warriors knew full well they ran this risk if captured.

For the Haudenosaunee, this was more of a spiritual event as male prisoners, if not adopted by a family were sacrificed to a war spirit called Aireskoi. On the journey back to the Haudenosaunee village, the prisoner was bond, but not mistreated. Upon arrival he was made to run between to long lines of villagers wielding switches, sticks and sometimes clubs. Painfully passing through this ‘gauntlet’ he was washed and his wounds tended by the women. If no one cared to adopt him or he was a notable enemy warrior, he would be condemned. Before the actual tortured began, the condemned was honored with a feast and songs. He smoked and conversed with his captors in a friendly yet fearless manner.

When the time came, as was the practice of many eastern woodland tribes, the condemned’s face or entire body was painted black, symbolically marking him for death. The Haudenosaunee honored him with song and then he was ceremoniously offered to Aireskoi.

All during this horrible torture, the condemned did his best not to cry out in pain and never would he beg for mercy, or a quick death stroke. Spectators were expected to show respect for both the condemned and the ceremony. The condemned sang his songs and defiantly taunted his captors as to shame them.

The condemned was usually scalped alive and had to endure the most unimaginable horrific agony as often his fingers, nose ears, genitals and other parts of him were removed piecemeal. In between agonies he was given water and offered food. Great care was taken not to sever any major arteries or overly damage any vital organs. Burning brands were also applied. Sometimes it took death days, to rescue the condemned, especially when skilled torturers carried out this practice.

Often after death, condemned prisoners of war were ritually cannibalized by the Haudenosaunee. If deemed terribly evil, the condemned was burned into ashes.

 

[painted wolf]

From what I heard some of the most skilled at this particular "art" were the women.
Women would say things like: "My beloved son, let me comb your hair" as they scalped him or "You look cold, let me warm you up" and then burn him with coals.

It seems to have been a way to relieve grief and agression for mothers and others who lost loved ones and didn't have the opportunity to otherwise express such feelings. Those who couldn't participate in warfare otherwise needed an outlet for their emotions.

It seems to have been a pretty common practice among the Eastern Nations. I've heard that in some cases men were made to run the length of their captors longhouse through each of the families fires... and that the captive would try to kick burning embers into those watching or onto the walls to catch the place on fire.

There are some pretty vivid accounts of how prisoners were treated written by French explorers and missionaries.... but then one has to account for the source of the information as well.

The truth is, we humans are a brutal complex species. Almost every culture has found a way to spiritualize warfare and brutality against others.

wa:do

ps... Another interesting point is while this form of cannibalism was ritually accepted by some... there were strong taboo's against eating human flesh for any other reason.

 

[Storm]

If you want to debate the question, the thread needs to be moved. I can put it in Same Faith or Religious Debates if you like.

 

[painted wolf]

I was unaware we were debating so much as discussing First Nations religious attitudes toward the treatment of prisoners.

The subject can be very touchy and I don't doubt there is a chance it will devolve into debate. But I think for now, there is room to see where it goes first.

wa:do

 

[Storm]

Of course, the title just made me wonder.

 

[Nashitheki]

If you want to debate the question, the thread needs to be moved. I can put it in Same Faith or Religious Debates if you like.

Who's debating ?

Many of these tribes especially of the eastern woodlands and great plains had/have warrior societies that were/are very spiritual.

It is my intention to share aspects of our spirituality,(pre-European conquest)some of which that often goes without mention in these modern times.

 

[Broken Smoke]

I understand the concept. All humans no matter who they are or where they are from have a good side and a dark, twisted side. It is a mature reasoning to show acceptance of the duality of the human soul.
Now my question, for I wish to learn from you. Did the eating of the captives serve to impart his (or her) positive traits to those feeding? If they died bravely and well, if their songs were truely bardic, would that go into the diners? Or did they just like a change of diet every now and then?:drool:

 

[painted wolf]

It's also interesting how many Nations included self-torture for religious reasons. From extreme fasting to cutting to piercing and ripping the flesh it seems that every culture held self-harm as a way to reach a spiritual goal.

The Sun Dance is an example of one such tradition that is still performed openly today.

In some cases it is thought that by inflicting pain on one's self you kept greater harm from the people... in others it was a way to show devotion or to prepare for war. In almost every case it is about denial of the self.

wa:do

 

[Nashitheki]

I understand the concept. All humans no matter who they are or where they are from have a good side and a dark, twisted side. It is a mature reasoning to show acceptance of the duality of the human soul.
Now my question, for I wish to learn from you. Did the eating of the captives serve to impart his (or her) positive traits to those feeding? If they died bravely and well, if their songs were truely bardic, would that go into the diners? Or did they just like a change of diet every now and then?:drool:

Not being Haudenosaunee, my knowledge is limited. Perhaps through this ritualistic cannibalism, they were ingesting the enemy's personal power. Whether this was symbolic or otherwise, I am not sure.

 

[Broken Smoke]

Not being Haudenosaunee, my knowledge is limited. Perhaps through this ritualistic cannibalism, they were ingesting the enemy's personal power. Whether this was symbolic or otherwise, I am not sure.

Hopefully this is a dead ritual. I can't expect an answer to this, but weren't they themselves forgetting that they would be getting the dark side along with the bright aspect of that person?:thud:

 

[Nashitheki]

Some have said such torture and cannibalism served the Haudenosaunee as a form of psychological terrorism. Although they were unified into a strong confederacy, the Haudenosaunee were surrounded by and often at war with thousands of Algonquians as well as other Iroquoian tribes. At one point during the Beaver Wars, they became quite imperialistic sending war parties as far west as Wisconsin and as far south as the Cherokee territory. They had a lot of fur rich territory to control, but lacked a huge enough fighting force to completely subdue other tribes competing for trade with the European powers. They did almost destroy the Iroquoian Wendat.

 

[painted wolf]

They were involved in particularly brutal (dare say genocidal) war with the Huron, who also treated prisoners with the same "gentle touch". Perhaps they drove each other into escalating forms of brutality to discourage warfare, only to have it backfire and produce deeper hatred?

wa:do

 

[Nashitheki]

They were involved in particularly brutal (dare say genocidal) war with the Huron, who also treated prisoners with the same "gentle touch". Perhaps they drove each other into escalating forms of brutality to discourage warfare, only to have it backfire and produce deeper hatred?

wa:do

Especially after Champlain sided in with the Wendat during a tribal squabble, killing four Haudenosaunee warchiefs in the process. More numerous than the Haudenosaunee, the Wendat were attacked following a nasty smallpox epidemic that reduced their population. As far as torture and spirituality, all the northern Iroquoian tribes, Huron, Erie, Susquehanna and others made offerings to Aireskoi and there was a good chance that the offshoot southern Iroquoian Cherokee and Tuscarora knew of this ancient spirit as well.

 

[painted wolf]

Perhaps... but the attitude toward war was very different.
For example, touching a dead body or killing someone made you ritually impure for several days afterward and you had to perform cleansing ceremonies. There doesn't seem to have been a particular war spirit and preparations for war were (AFIK) intense wordless (but not quiet) affairs.

That isn't to say that prisoners weren't ever tortured, but it doesn't seem to have been quite the same spectacle that it was in other nations. The prisoner was tied to a stake and burned with brands before being killed.
The reason seems to be tied with Cherokee views on harmony... a death in a family required another death to balance it out. In the case of those lost to war, several families could use the prolonged death of a prisoner to get the same result. This was used to reduce vengeance killings and escalations of violence.

It wasn't a matter of appealing to a particular spirit, but keeping balance and harmony.

wa:do

 

[Nashitheki]

That's not to say the Cherokee were no strangers to torture, my people either.

 

[Broken Smoke]

That's not to say the Cherokee were no strangers to torture, my people either.

There is no group of humans who are not familiar with the concept of torture. Maybe some of the Amazonian tribes, but we don't really know everything they do. With the huge amount of diversity amongst the North American peoples, yes, everybody tortured someone. The reasons for such, ex. when women did the deed, were very different indeed. So it's not that one group was more "moral" than the other. :curtsy:

 

[Nashitheki]

There is no group of humans who are not familiar with the concept of torture. Maybe some of the Amazonian tribes, but we don't really know everything they do. With the huge amount of diversity amongst the North American peoples, yes, everybody tortured someone. The reasons for such, ex. when women did the deed, were very different indeed. So it's not that one group was more "moral" than the other. :curtsy:

Hence a big part of the spirituality any warlike primitive people would adhere to.

 

[Broken Smoke]

Hence a big part of the spirituality any warlike primitive people would adhere to.

Take a look around you. What do you see? Pure foolishness of some, pure greed of others. The human ego. We all did this, you for one reason, and I for another. Dark, twisted half remember? If we didn't have it, we would be devine.:angel2:

 

[Nashitheki]

Take a look around you. What do you see? Pure foolishness of some, pure greed of others. The human ego. We all did this, you for one reason, and I for another. Dark, twisted half remember? If we didn't have it, we would be devine.:angel2:

Soothful words that bespeak of a balance, comforting or scary, depending upon which way one's head is turned.

 

[painted wolf]

That's not to say the Cherokee were no strangers to torture, my people either.

Exactly... it's just the motives and the cultural attitudes around it were slightly different.

The Cherokee, while not without warfare... were not in the same intensive ongoing war that some other nations experienced.

wa:do