[/QUOTE]I believe Jesus it make references to changing the Law, for example divorce, which is followed too variably in the Christian world.
Was there not disagreement on divorce between the Sadducees and the Pharisees?
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[/QUOTE]I believe Jesus it make references to changing the Law, for example divorce, which is followed too variably in the Christian world.
Well they don't, though. They can't because the sacrificial system outlined in the Torah no longer exists.This makes no sense though. The Torah is not some game to be won. It's an eternal theocratic law that claims to be forever. It's for all Israelites at all times, wherever they live. It's not some competition to see who can be the most righteous, it's the social system by which God expects his people to live, as with any other law.
But he full filled the old law, so it's not needed anymore. There is a new law.
Well, a figurative understanding doesn't mean anything in the real world.The idea of 'fulfillment' is complex and should not be given a simple literal understanding.
This was already dealt with way back in the time of Solomon. It is replaced with prayer.Well they don't, though. They can't because the sacrificial system outlined in the Torah no longer exists.
Because it's a big part of the law. And it was fulfilled in Christ, by him being the ultimate sacrifice, and fulfilling the whole law.This was already dealt with way back in the time of Solomon. It is replaced with prayer.
The sacrificial system isn't the be all and end all of the Torah, but for some reason it's always brought up.
Human sacrifice is not allowed.Because it's a big part of the law. And it was fulfilled in Christ, by him being the ultimate sacrifice, and fulfilling the whole law.
And here lies the difficulty. The everlasting covenant, based on faith in Christ, was not available to lsrael at the time of Moses. The law therefore acted as schoolteacher until the time that Christ came [Gal.3:24].
This is in religious debates and so is open to everyone.
In trying to understand Christianity and what underpins it, I keep coming up against essentially the belief that the Torah isn't enough, it's not good enough, it doesn't do this or that.
Psalm 19 says 'The Law of the Lord is perfect', and the Torah in Deut 4 says not to add or take away from it, and in Deut 30 it says it is not far away, hard to do etc.
Can someone please explain to me, if the Torah is perfect, which the Tanakh says it is, why is Jesus or Christianity as a whole necessary? There shouldn't be any need for any 'new' revelation or upgrade, per the Torah itself (it would be adding or taking away).
Can you still have Christianity if you believe the Torah is perfect? I don't believe you can.
Christ is prophecied in the Torah.Human sacrifice is not allowed.
There's no sacrifice to end all sacrifices; that's not a concept in the Torah, either.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'fulfilled to the letter' - for instance, there are laws for women and priests etc. that Jesus couldn't fulfil. I'm not here to debate you on the messiah point today [], but I am thinking of passages such as this,
He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
Jesus both takes away and adds to the Torah here, thus changing it - an act which is forbidden. How is this justified by Christians?
Where?Christ is prophecied in the Torah.
Who has believed our messageWhere?
This isn't the Torah, and Isaiah 53 is speaking about Israel.Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
I agree.But God did make an everlasting, absolute, irrevocable, eternal covenant with Abraham.
So you are saying the iniquity was laid on Israel? If so, whose iniquity?This isn't the Torah, and Isaiah 53 is speaking about Israel.
Next.
I'm not going through Isa 53 on this thread. I've done it over and over again with Christians.So you are saying the iniquity was laid on Israel? If so, whose iniquity?
So Israel was a man of suffering?
And when was Israel cut off from the land of the living?
First, I note you offer no evidence to support your claim. I didn't think you would be able to.If Christians don't believe in the whole Tanakh, what then supports their belief in a messiah at all? Or their use of prophecies? How would one discern what to take vs what to leave? It's senseless imo.
It's so obviously about Christ.This isn't the Torah, and Isaiah 53 is speaking about Israel.
Next.