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Torah in Christianity

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
This is in religious debates and so is open to everyone.

In trying to understand Christianity and what underpins it, I keep coming up against essentially the belief that the Torah isn't enough, it's not good enough, it doesn't do this or that.

Psalm 19 says 'The Law of the Lord is perfect', and the Torah in Deut 4 says not to add or take away from it, and in Deut 30 it says it is not far away, hard to do etc.

Can someone please explain to me, if the Torah is perfect, which the Tanakh says it is, why is Jesus or Christianity as a whole necessary? There shouldn't be any need for any 'new' revelation or upgrade, per the Torah itself (it would be adding or taking away).

Can you still have Christianity if you believe the Torah is perfect? I don't believe you can.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
This is in religious debates and so is open to everyone.

In trying to understand Christianity and what underpins it, I keep coming up against essentially the belief that the Torah isn't enough, it's not good enough, it doesn't do this or that.

Psalm 19 says 'The Law of the Lord is perfect', and the Torah in Deut 4 says not to add or take away from it, and in Deut 30 it says it is not far away, hard to do etc.

Can someone please explain to me, if the Torah is perfect, which the Tanakh says it is, why is Jesus or Christianity as a whole necessary? There shouldn't be any need for any 'new' revelation or upgrade, per the Torah itself (it would be adding or taking away).

Can you still have Christianity if you believe the Torah is perfect? I don't believe you can.
Er, because Christians do not believe it is perfect, or at any rate, that it is not a complete expression of what God intends for Man, perhaps?
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Er, because Christians do not believe it is perfect, or at any rate, that it is not a complete expression of what God intends for Man, perhaps?
I gather this, but they are then disagreeing with the Tanakh itself. How is this reconciled? How do they deal with David saying it is perfect, and the Torah saying not to add to it?
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Psalm 19 says 'The Law of the Lord is perfect', and the Torah in Deut 4 says not to add or take away from it, and in Deut 30 it says it is not far away, hard to do etc.

If the Law was perfect, how do you explain Jer 31:31-34, why was a 'new law' necessary? Or what is the difference between Law and Covenant?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
This is in religious debates and so is open to everyone.

In trying to understand Christianity and what underpins it, I keep coming up against essentially the belief that the Torah isn't enough, it's not good enough, it doesn't do this or that.

Psalm 19 says 'The Law of the Lord is perfect', and the Torah in Deut 4 says not to add or take away from it, and in Deut 30 it says it is not far away, hard to do etc.

Can someone please explain to me, if the Torah is perfect, which the Tanakh says it is, why is Jesus or Christianity as a whole necessary? There shouldn't be any need for any 'new' revelation or upgrade, per the Torah itself (it would be adding or taking away).

Can you still have Christianity if you believe the Torah is perfect? I don't believe you can.

Even after Deut 4 was written the Torah was added to if you take the Torah as the "Word of God".
One of those things that is the Word of God is the promise of God to give a New Covenant.
Something else that is also the Word of God is the writings about the coming of that New Covenant.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
If the Law was perfect, how do you explain Jer 31:31-34, why was a 'new law' necessary? Or what is the difference between Law and Covenant?
There is no new law. Here is what the text says,

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


There's no change in the content of the covenant, God is just renewing the old one. The Law is the same law, it's just going to be written on Israelite hearts, so they will no longer stray.
 
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Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Even after Deut 4 was written the Torah was added to if you take the Torah as the "Word of God".
The text says this:

You must not add anything to what I command you or take anything away from it, so that you may keep the commands of the Lord your God I am giving you.


He ended these commands with the close of Deuteronomy.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
This is in religious debates and so is open to everyone.

In trying to understand Christianity and what underpins it, I keep coming up against essentially the belief that the Torah isn't enough, it's not good enough, it doesn't do this or that.

Psalm 19 says 'The Law of the Lord is perfect', and the Torah in Deut 4 says not to add or take away from it, and in Deut 30 it says it is not far away, hard to do etc.

Can someone please explain to me, if the Torah is perfect, which the Tanakh says it is, why is Jesus or Christianity as a whole necessary? There shouldn't be any need for any 'new' revelation or upgrade, per the Torah itself (it would be adding or taking away).

Can you still have Christianity if you believe the Torah is perfect? I don't believe you can.
I think the Torah is perfect and fits perfectly with Christianity. Could you be accidentally mixing the Law with the promise of Abraham? We don't see it as "adding" but rather "fulfilling".
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
I think the Torah is perfect and fits perfectly with Christianity. Could you be accidentally mixing the Law with the promise of Abraham? We don't see it as "adding" but rather "fulfilling".
No.

If the Torah is perfect, how can it be added to or anything more be needed? How does Jesus fit into this?

What do you mean by 'fulfilling'? You can't 'fulfil' a law, like 'here done, now it's no longer necessary'. Plus there are laws for different folks that others can't do.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
There's no change in the content of the covenant, God is just renewing the old one. The Law is the same law, it's jsut going to be written on Israelite hearts, so they will no longer stray.

Obviously, the Christian reading interprets differently.

The new covenant is an occasional prophetic theme, beginning with Hosea. According to Jeremiah, (a) it lasts forever; (b) its law (torah) is written in human hearts; (c) it gives everyone true knowledge of God, making additional instruction (torah) unnecessary. The Dead Sea Scroll community claimed they were partners in a “new covenant.” The New Testament presents the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth as inaugurating a new covenant open to anyone who professes faith in Jesus the Christ.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Obviously, the Christian reading interprets differently.

The new covenant is an occasional prophetic theme, beginning with Hosea. According to Jeremiah, (a) it lasts forever; (b) its law (torah) is written in human hearts; (c) it gives everyone true knowledge of God, making additional instruction (torah) unnecessary. The Dead Sea Scroll community claimed they were partners in a “new covenant.” The New Testament presents the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth as inaugurating a new covenant open to anyone who professes faith in Jesus the Christ.
It's only for the Israelites though, as the text itself says; so I don't know where the idea of it being written on all human hearts comes from.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
No.

If the Torah is perfect, how can it be added to or anything more be needed? How does Jesus fit into this?

What do you mean by 'fulfilling'? You can't 'fulfil' a law, like 'here done, now it's no longer necessary'. Plus there are laws for different folks that others can't do.

Pardon for my "christianeese"

When I say "fulfilled", I simply mean he was the only one that fulfilled it to the letter. The Law is still in effect as without it, who would know what is wrong?

But why do you say "added"? I don't understand. If the whole of the law is love, what are we adding?

I guess Jesus fits into this in as much as even the Jewish people are looking for the Messiah. Not to mention:
  1. Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
  2. Matthew 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

  3. Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

  4. Matthew 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

  5. Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

  6. Matthew 21:4 All this was done, that it might befulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, 5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ***, and a colt the foal of an ***.

  7. Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I gather this, but they are then disagreeing with the Tanakh itself. How is this reconciled? How do they deal with David saying it is perfect, and the Torah saying not to add to it?

There are many ways Christianity does not reflect the Tanakh, because it evolved a Roman/Hellenist view of religion. For example the concept of an incarnate God and the Trinity are clearly in contradiction to the teachings of the Tanakh.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
If the Law was perfect, how do you explain Jer 31:31-34, why was a 'new law' necessary? Or what is the difference between Law and Covenant?
Jer speaks of a renewed covenant. The law remains the same. The covenant is the contract marking a relationship. The law are the rules governing that relationship. If my boss says "I am rehiring you for next year so let's sign a new contract" that doesn't change the professional expectations of the job, itself, which remain in force. Nothing in the text there says that any new laws are involved.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
It's only for the Israelites though, as the text itself says; so I don't know where the idea of it being written on all human hearts comes from.

Obviously, all pertains to Judaism, within Judaism, and Jesus was a Jew.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Pardon for my "christianeese"

When I say "fulfilled", I simply mean he was the only one that fulfilled it to the letter. The Law is still in effect as without it, who would know what is wrong?

But why do you say "added"? I don't understand. If the whole of the law is love, what are we adding?

I guess Jesus fits into this in as much as even the Jewish people are looking for the Messiah. Not to mention:
  1. Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
  2. Matthew 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

  3. Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

  4. Matthew 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

  5. Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

  6. Matthew 21:4 All this was done, that it might befulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, 5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ***, and a colt the foal of an ***.

  7. Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'fulfilled to the letter' - for instance, there are laws for women and priests etc. that Jesus couldn't fulfil. I'm not here to debate you on the messiah point today [:D], but I am thinking of passages such as this,

He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”


Jesus both takes away and adds to the Torah here, thus changing it - an act which is forbidden. How is this justified by Christians?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
This is in religious debates and so is open to everyone.

In trying to understand Christianity and what underpins it, I keep coming up against essentially the belief that the Torah isn't enough, it's not good enough, it doesn't do this or that.

Psalm 19 says 'The Law of the Lord is perfect', and the Torah in Deut 4 says not to add or take away from it, and in Deut 30 it says it is not far away, hard to do etc.

Can someone please explain to me, if the Torah is perfect, which the Tanakh says it is, why is Jesus or Christianity as a whole necessary? There shouldn't be any need for any 'new' revelation or upgrade, per the Torah itself (it would be adding or taking away).

Can you still have Christianity if you believe the Torah is perfect? I don't believe you can.
Perfect for it's time but not after the fulfillment of it's prophecies about the messiah happened. It's like saying that the prelude is good enough, we don't need the actual movie.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Perfect for it's time but not after the fulfillment of it's prophecies about the messiah happened. It's like saying that the prelude is good enough, we don't need the actual movie.
The Torah explicitly states many of its commandments are 'a statue for all time' - and not adding or taking away indicates the whole is forever. There's no expiry date after which new commandments can be given. The Messiah is not prophesied as bringing a new law.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I'm not sure what you mean by 'fulfilled to the letter' - for instance, there are laws for women and priests etc. that Jesus couldn't fulfil. I'm not here to debate you on the messiah point today [:D], but I am thinking of passages such as this,

He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”


Jesus both takes away and adds to the Torah here, thus changing it - an act which is forbidden. How is this justified by Christians?

Yes, Jesus was not a woman. So he really didn't need to fulfill that.

I'm not sure why Jesus doesn't classify for fulfilling the priesthood.

As far as marriage, let's look at it this way....

What if, and I say what if, God's ways are higher than our ways and God's thoughts are actually higher than ours?

What if Jesus was actually imparting a spiritual truth and the REAL measure of adultery in the eyes of a Holy God? He really didn't detract from the Law - it was still there because of the hardness of the heart of people. He didn't detract or add to it, it still remained as it was written.

He simply was dictating the actual thought that was higher than yours or mine. The actual written law was still in effect.
 
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