Torah in Christianity

[PearlSeeker]

NT contradicts also itself.

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!" (Mt 5:18)

What does that contradict?

For example:

"Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well." (Heb 7:11-12)

 

[PearlSeeker]

The things of the Law were fulfilled/accomplished. That's part of the reason it's impossible to even keep all of those things anymore.

No. It's "until heaven and earth pass away."

"Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jesus revealed God the Father in greater detail, he introduced ALL mankind as sons’s of God, not a self described “chosen people”.

Jesus had nothing to say to non-Jews. He certainly never said that non-Jews were the "chosen people."

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The contradictions between the Tanakh and the NT run deeper than the above references without a universal perspective. In the plain reading of the the Tanakh refers to the prophecies and destiny of the Hebrews only.

No. The plain reading of the Tanakh and the NT refers to prophecies of the words. And the words do exactly as said, they position themselves accordingly.

Prophecy is very plainly speaking the positioning of the words.

Like here is an example to consider:

So here we have three certain words:
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luke 21:25

And here we have another three certain words:
Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows. Nehemiah 4:13

Now look at this:
Here we have prophecy (the positioning of the words):

The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk 3:11

Which can logically be seen like this:

Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

Therefore the prophecy is true. As you can see the sun and moon are in fixed positions, and they are positioned with bow and spear. The prophecy was fulfilled the moment it was spoken.

It can also be seen the Star is as Sword because the prophecy didnt mention those two specific words (The words Star, and Sword were in the two verses that each mentioned three words).

The ancient religions are grounded exclusively in their own beliefs and are in one way or another in conflict with other religions.

You might think the words of other religions are in conflict, but the positioning of their words is not. Like other religions can talk about different animals and trees, etc, relative to their area. But their word positioning can also say exactly the same thing as the Tanakh.

With word positioning the positioning is the meaning. In this way different sounding words can say exactly the same thing.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Their basic messages are different. The Tanakh teaches the importance of obedience to God--it is concerned with what you DO. The New Testament teaches salvation from hell through faith in Jesus--it is concerned with what you believe. The great concern of Christianity is salvation, and I think that Christians in general tend to assume that Jews are also concerned about salvation, but that we just go about it a different way -- this is just not true.

So concerned about what you do, or concerned about what you believe, that's the difference?

But what about being concerned with what you hear the words saying? The Tanakh seems very concerned with this, just as the NT is concerned with it.

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word". John 8:43

 

[Kenny]

This is in religious debates and so is open to everyone.

In trying to understand Christianity and what underpins it, I keep coming up against essentially the belief that the Torah isn't enough, it's not good enough, it doesn't do this or that.

Psalm 19 says 'The Law of the Lord is perfect', and the Torah in Deut 4 says not to add or take away from it, and in Deut 30 it says it is not far away, hard to do etc.

Can someone please explain to me, if the Torah is perfect, which the Tanakh says it is, why is Jesus or Christianity as a whole necessary? There shouldn't be any need for any 'new' revelation or upgrade, per the Torah itself (it would be adding or taking away).

Can you still have Christianity if you believe the Torah is perfect? I don't believe you can.

I’m not sure that those are the only two options… why can’t both be true?

I think you are mixing two covenants (there are many). Christianity underlines the covenant of Abraham - a covenant of grace (not Moses - the covenant of the perfect Law)

 

[Colt]

Jesus had nothing to say to non-Jews. He certainly never said that non-Jews were the "chosen people."

Not true, it’s just that the New Testament was written by Jewish followers who still retained the age old bigoted attitude towards non-Jews.

Jesus instructed his followers to carry the Gospel to ALL the world. The arrogance of the Israelites was such that they were simply not going to share their God equally with the Gentile world.

28:19-20:

18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

 

[Colt]

Jesus had nothing to say to non-Jews. He certainly never said that non-Jews were the "chosen people."

Not true, it’s just that the New Testament was written by Jewish followers who still retained the age old bigoted attitude towards non-Jews.

Jesus instructed his followers to carry the Gospel to ALL the world. The arrogance of the Israelites was such that they were simply not going to share their God equally with the Gentile world.

28:19-20:

18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of theFather and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not true, it’s just that the New Testament was written by Jewish followers who still retained the age old bigoted attitude towards non-Jews.

Jesus instructed his followers to carry the Gospel to ALL the world. The arrogance of the Israelites was such that they were simply not going to share their God equally with the Gentile world.

28:19-20:

18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of theFather and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Give me a verse, any verse from any of the four gospels, where Jesus goes to address a gentile crowd.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So concerned about what you do, or concerned about what you believe, that's the difference?

It's a pretty significant difference. There are of course, many other differences. But I hate long posts, so I homed in on the essense.

Since you seem to want another example, try this one on for size. The Tanakh states FOUR TIMES that God is NOT a man. The NT teaches that the man Jesus is God. Utterly irreconcilable.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No. The plain reading of the Tanakh and the NT refers to prophecies of the words.

You mean the so-called prophecies that the NT misquotes, yanks out of context, and makes up out of whole cloth?

 

[PearlSeeker]

Give me a verse, any verse from any of the four gospels, where Jesus goes to address a gentile crowd.

If I may join your debate. Yes, (in the gospels) Jesus preached to Jews but there are some examples that could be interpreted as a prophecy that the Jews will reject him and Gentiles will take their place e. g. The parable of the marriage feast.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Since you seem to want another example, try this one on for size. The Tanakh states FOUR TIMES that God is NOT a man. The NT teaches that the man Jesus is God. Utterly irreconcilable.

The gospels also mention that Jesus is not God. "Why do you call me good? Only God is good." Even the Gospel of John says that the Son has less power than the Father.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The gospels also mention that Jesus is not God. "Why do you call me good? Only God is good." Even the Gospel of John says that the Son has less power than the Father.

The complicated truth is that the NT promotes more than one idea, and these ideas contradict. There are verses that indicate Jesus is not God. And there are other verses that indicate he is. So most people, in response to that, focus in on a subset of verses and ignore the rest.

For example:
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

It's a pretty significant difference. There are of course, many other differences. But I hate long posts, so I homed in on the essense.

Do you accept the Tanakh says that the words are not being heard correctly? Seems to be stated multiple times.
There would be no difference between those that can't hear what to do, and those that can't hear what to believe.

Since you seem to want another example, try this one on for size. The Tanakh states FOUR TIMES that God is NOT a man. The NT teaches that the man Jesus is God. Utterly irreconcilable.

If prophets (men) in the Tanakh spoke the word of God, and Jesus states multiple times he says what he is told to say.

Like here:
"For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak". John 12:49

Then what's the problem?

You mean the so-called prophecies that the NT misquotes, yanks out of context, and makes up out of whole cloth?

Do you think "the marriage of the lamb" prophecy of the NT is made up?

"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready". Revelation 19:7

"And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God". Revelation 19:9

This prophecy states it is a true saying of God.


So does that mean it is lawful for a man to have a relationship with a sheep?
Or do you not believe the words?


I know that prophecy was "fulfilled" the moment it was spoken. It is positioning the words.

Look here:

Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine

Consider hearing the corn (Bread), the oil, and the wine:
And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea 2:22

As the judgements of Cattle, Goats, and Sheep:
"And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats". Ezekiel 34:17

Listen carefully. Consider the wife as the grape vine (Wine):
Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table. Psalm 128:3

The wife is as the grape vine, and the children are as olive trees (consider a son of God).

As God is the husband.
For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5

Therefore the marriage of the lamb is a true saying.

Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine

Are you able to comprehend the wife is as a sheep in accordance with the Tanakh?

 

[Brian2]

Reference to this one citation is in and itself is part of the justification of the New Covenant of Christianity and the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Tanakh, which would be in contradiction with the Hebrew Tanakh and Jewish beliefs. You have to put this in perspective with the whole of the NT to see the contradictions.

Again . . . the plain reading of the prophecies of the Tanakh in Hebrew refer to Messianic Kings of Abrahamic lineage that will restore the Nation of Israel and bring peace,

So what does it contradict?

 

[Colt]

Give me a verse, any verse from any of the four gospels, where Jesus goes to address a gentile crowd.

There are none. I did provide the verse where Jesus instructed his apostles to go into ALL the world! Jesus had already explained that the Jews would reject the Gospel, their calling and that the light would be given to others.

 

[Brian2]

Again, I find it incredibly strange to hear a Christian acknowledge that the messages are different, and yet you still want the OT to be in your Bible. It seems logical to me that if they have different messages, they cannot both be from God.

The OT and Tanakh are different in many places and also the Jewish interpretations are different in many places.
Even if we forget about the translation differences, the interpretations would still be different.
If you believed God confirmed whom Jesus is by raising Him from the dead then I imagine it would not be too hard to see the Christian interpretations are correct, as other Jews have done.

 

[shunyadragon]

So what does it contradict?

The plain reading of ALL the prophecies refer to one or more promised Messianic Kings to lead Hebrews to restore the Nation of Israel.

Jesus DID NOT fulfill these prophecies.

 

[Brian2]

For example:

"Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well." (Heb 7:11-12)

And yet the Jews who want to remain under the Mosaic Covenant and Law still remain, and will remain until all is accomplished. For them, the law does not change and for those under the New Covenant, they fulfil the Law by being led by the Spirit and loving God and neighbour.