To What Degree Has Scientific Knowledge Pulled Mankind Away From Religion?

[ChristineM]

Of which you know for a fact that everybody that had anything to do with technology and science was a nonbeliever?

If all the Atheists & Agnostics left America, they'd lose 93% of The National Academy of Sciences & less than 1% of the prison population.
-Ricky Gervais

The National Academy occasionally surveys its members on religious adherence, the latest survey showed that 93% of its membership had no belief in a higher/supernatural power.

 

[Mindmaster]

That is an emperical fact that would be denied by its rabid followers..

First sign you have a problem, is failing to realize you have one.

It's always the people around you that notice it...

 

[Mindmaster]

No. Science and religion are pretty much diametric opposites.
Science remains skeptical, investigative, evidence based, tested, and falsifiable -- none of which apply to religion, at least Abrahamic religion.

Urban and secure populations are. The insecure and isolated still cleave to them as havens of familiarity and conventionalism.

I think conventional religions are falling away, but are also being replaced with animistic or shamanistic beliefs. Certainly, I have no data to that just my perception but eventually "religion" and "science" will merge to some extent. Europeans are _really_ grabbing onto this, but it is happening here in the USA as well - interest in these topics is really become popular because of the resurgence of psychoactive substances. Logically, people start wondering why their ancestors were taking these things and if their was any truth to the related path... Sometimes they do make that connection, and voila...

Anyway, I see it as a really good thing... healthier non-dogmatic spirituality and science possibly working together in the future... Study quantum mechanics, and then read about shamanism and prepare to be amazed at the similarity of their "models". Food for thought, in any case.

 

[ChristineM]

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

From 2000-2010 Islam became the fastest growing religion (1.86 %) and the Baha’i Faith was the second fastest growing religion (1.72%).

The growth rates of the Baha’i Faith were higher than Islam from 1910 to 2010 because it includes the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944) FOURTH PERIOD: THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMATIVE AGE OF THE BAHÁ’Í FAITH 1921–1944

Growth has slowed down since 2000 because the new Baha’i Faith goal is community building so the emphasis is not teaching the Faith.

Since the year 2000, religion has made resurgence whereas atheism and agnosticism are on the decline.

Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. It is also interesting to note that agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

Also interesting is that there were only 136,652,000 atheists in 2010, but there were 676,944,000 agnostics.

The growth rate of the Baha’i Faith far exceeded Christianity from 1910-2010 (3.54% vs. 1.32%). Although the growth rate of the Baha’i Faith has slowed down from 2000-2010 (1.72%) it still exceeds the growth rate of Christianity (1.31%).

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

In realm terms, compared to world population increase currently growing at 1.2% per year, these figures don't look so impressive.

 

[ChristineM]

Science is doing its best to become a religion itself... Is there really much difference at this point, other than the universal model you feel is more acceptable?

As far as mankind leaping away from religion, not really. Urban populations are, the rest of the world isn't following them.

Evidence is one difference.

 

[David T]

First sign you have a problem, is failing to realize you have one.

It's always the people around you that notice it...

That's the beauty of life. Other people to remind you that you are being dumb. REM had the song "losing my religion". That's not just about church. Breathing, I think it's way to under appreciated. Long sauntering walks in nature, doesn't seem to be practiced much. In fact here on this site, I almost never hear people reference nature as a presence, nature is generally only referred to as an dead inert object passive thing. That's dangerous and it's playing out enviromentally today.

 

[Mindmaster]

Evidence is one difference.

Many mystical understandings parallel scientific notions like the big bang, for example. In other areas, evidence based "proof" is not simply enough because the experience is largely internal to the observer. How do you explain color to a man with no eyes? Generally, the only way to understand these experiences and validate what they mean to you is to partake in them yourself. I hope that in the future we all become open to such inquiry and reject dogma - even the dogma of materialistic expressions of the universe or scientific experts made guru. We need to determine the value of such things solely by the efforts of our own understanding. Anyhow, I think it's pretty arrogant to assume that all of the meandering of our ancestors is wasted time in this realm - I tend to believe they were not less intelligent than ourselves, so I try to keep my mind open to the past while looking toward the future.

 

[Mindmaster]

That's the beauty of life. Other people to remind you that you are being dumb. REM had the song "losing my religion". That's not just about church. Breathing, I think it's way to under appreciated. Long sauntering walks in nature, doesn't seem to be practiced much. In fact here on this site, I almost never hear people reference nature as a presence, nature is generally only referred to as an dead inert object passive thing. That's dangerous and it's playing out enviromentally today.

Don't know what you're missing until it's gone, if the lessons of history are anything. And yeah, I do spend a lot of time in nature when sub-zero wind chills aren't preventing my flesh suit from doing so. (AKA, not the last week or two. ) Modern mindsets are probably not more arrogant than in the past about matters, but it is obviously this arrogance that is the true problem in spirituality or scientific matters - period. For example, psychology, Hawaiian native religions, eastern religions (Hindu/Buddhism), and other folk religions _ALL_ basically agree on the same basic components of the mind/consciousness - they just don't agree that they do, and they use different words to explain it. We can fight over models, or pool our information to get the maximal understanding of the subject. Pissing contests are fun, but they really don't get us anywhere.

 

[David T]

Don't know what you're missing until it's gone, if the lessons of history are anything. And yeah, I do spend a lot of time in nature when sub-zero wind chills aren't preventing my flesh suit from doing so. (AKA, not the last week or two. ) Modern mindsets are probably not more arrogant than in the past about matters, but it is obviously this arrogance that is the true problem in spirituality or scientific matters - period. For example, psychology, Hawaiian native religions, eastern religions (Hindu/Buddhism), and other folk religions _ALL_ basically agree on the same basic components of the mind/consciousness - they just don't agree that they do, and they use different words to explain it. We can fight over models, or pool our information to get the maximal understanding of the subject. Pissing contests are fun, but they really don't get us anywhere.

You are preaching to the choir!!! I think when we find ourselves asking such questions, then you have to become aware you are screwed!!!! Lol. I have worked for some time contemplating how we became as a literate society so detached from nature. My degree is a symptom of that it's called theology and it's the first science degree at the modern University starting in 1094 bologna Italy.

Modern scientific empericism grew up from emperical reading of the Bible. We read about and read nature like we are reading a book. Before books we didn't read nature we directly connected to nature. There was no historical paintings of words. There was only nature and us in nature. It was science it was church it was everything, but most importantly it was home. It was not our house as modernity imagines it was home.
Here on the oregon coast, the coastal range goes from the columbia where I live south to the great redwood forests.. In northern California. The voice from an earlier era is definitely someone to pay close attention to his name is John Muir. He was the cultures spiritual voice of the landscape. The national parks are a result of him. Today he has been replaced by Al gore, corporate organizations, lots of well intended deeply misguided efforts to move towards sustainability. That's a fantasy. I say nature alive or extinction.

That is an aboriginalist view. That also just happens to be in dead alignment to the Noah story, through the eyes of pre literacy reading that story. So I am not saying anything new at all. I think to get caught in culture is like trying to talk to a rock. It's reasoned its way to becoming a rock about that aware.

I might say you are becoming a sheep dog! A sheep dog has a compass the shepard and sheep just road maps. If the shepard are becoming confused the sheep dog barks in context to the compass to move the sheep back towards alignment. The blind shepard automatically follows along. Blindness isn't bad it's an is. So how the sheep dog barks is left up to the sheep dog to figure out. Music? Painting? Story? Three main tools of the sheep dog, the shaman. You can try reasoned arguments good luck. And if you discover something that works I am all sheep dog ears. Kierkegaard said, "I am so poorly understood, that my complaints,about not being understood, are not even understood."

One day I was out in the forest sauntering about and I realized "oh crap the bible is true,this totally absolutely sucks".... That's when I realized the enviromental issues we have were extremely serious. Way way more serious and problematic that some simple fixes to fossil fuel usage, renulewable energy etc. It was like I shunned religion theology only to return to the text again totally against my will!!! Damn it anyway. Lol.

 

[ChristineM]

Many mystical understandings parallel scientific notions like the big bang, for example. In other areas, evidence based "proof" is not simply enough because the experience is largely internal to the observer. How do you explain color to a man with no eyes? Generally, the only way to understand these experiences and validate what they mean to you is to partake in them yourself. I hope that in the future we all become open to such inquiry and reject dogma - even the dogma of materialistic expressions of the universe or scientific experts made guru. We need to determine the value of such things solely by the efforts of our own understanding. Anyhow, I think it's pretty arrogant to assume that all of the meandering of our ancestors is wasted time in this realm - I tend to believe they were not less intelligent than ourselves, so I try to keep my mind open to the past while looking toward the future.

There is evidence for the bb.

If it is infernal to the observer then it is not evidence.

Colour? Strawman

Nope, we need to ascertain the facts, and continue to educate ourselves. Keep the dreams of your own, possibly flawed, certainty not falsifiable, to yourself and those willing to forgo cultural advancement and education in favour of bronze age faith.

??? Who said our ancestors were less intelligent than modern man, less technology advanced and certainly for the last few thousand years driven by the dogma of religion. But less intelligent? Your words.

 

[Valjean]

I think conventional religions are falling away, but are also being replaced with animistic or shamanistic beliefs. Certainly, I have no data to that just my perception but eventually "religion" and "science" will merge to some extent. Europeans are _really_ grabbing onto this, but it is happening here in the USA as well - interest in these topics is really become popular because of the resurgence of psychoactive substances. Logically, people start wondering why their ancestors were taking these things and if their was any truth to the related path... Sometimes they do make that connection, and voila...

While there is a cadre of Bliss-Ninnies embracing exotic religions -- I suspect for the novelty of it, I don't see evidence of this occurring on a large scale. The trend seems to be simple secularism; just ignoring religion as part of one's life. This is the trend we've seen in Europe, where the social safety nets and government "promotion of the general welfare" have removed the insecurity that drove people to seek solace in pie-in-the-sky fantasy.

Anyway, I see it as a really good thing... healthier non-dogmatic spirituality and science possibly working together in the future... Study quantum mechanics, and then read about shamanism and prepare to be amazed at the similarity of their "models". Food for thought, in any case.

Convergence in world-view does not translate to similarity in goals or methodology, though. Science and religion remain polar opposites.

 

[RedDragon94]

If all the Atheists & Agnostics left America, they'd lose 93% of The National Academy of Sciences & less than 1% of the prison population.
-Ricky Gervais

The National Academy occasionally surveys its members on religious adherence, the latest survey showed that 93% of its membership had no belief in a higher/supernatural power.

That's not what I asked. Are you saying that every scientist and/or inventor that has ever lived was non-religious?

 

[Trailblazer]

In realm terms, compared to world population increase currently growing at 1.2% per year, these figures don't look so impressive.

No, they are not growing that fast, but what is noteworthy is how slow atheism and agnosticism have been growing compared to religions since the year 2000.

 

[Mindmaster]

Convergence in world-view does not translate to similarity in goals or methodology, though. Science and religion remain polar opposites.

Convergence in goals is irrelevant, knowledge will be cross pollinated because it doesn't exist in isolation. Science didn't even know what to start investigating without the curiosity inspired by religion, and religion relies on science to this day to understand itself. These things will become one, but maybe not in our lifetimes...

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, they are not growing that fast, but what is noteworthy is how slow atheism and agnosticism have been growing compared to religions since the year 2000.

And yet the various sources that I can see tell us that atheism is growing at a faster rate than any religion, we except perhaps for Pastafarianism. What evidence do you have for your claims?

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's not what I asked. Are you saying that every scientist and/or inventor that has ever lived was non-religious?

Since you posted a strawman first you have no grounds for complaint.

 

[Trailblazer]

And yet the various sources that I can see tell us that atheism is growing at a faster rate than any religion, we except perhaps for Pastafarianism. What evidence do you have for your claims?

Don't get me wrong. I am a believer but I like atheists and I see nothing wrong with being an atheist. Actually, one reason I came to this forum (just this week) is because I wanted a forum that had both believers and nonbelievers, where I could speak freely. I just left a forum where believers were not really welcome and I was treated unjustly by the staff. They just happen to be nonbelievers but all people are individuals so that is no reflection on nonbelievers in general. My best forum friends is a skeptic.

Anyhow, below is one source I consider reliable:

The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050

Why Muslims Are Rising Fastest and the Unaffiliated Are Shrinking as a Share of the World’s Population

The religious profile of the world is rapidly changing, driven primarily by differences in fertility rates and the size of youth populations among the world’s major religions, as well as by people switching faiths. Over the next four decades, Christians will remain the largest religious group, but Islam will grow faster than any other major religion. If current trends continue, by 2050:

• The number of Muslims will nearly equal the number of Christians around the world.
• Atheists, agnostics and other people who do not affiliate with any religion – though increasing in countries such as the United States and France – will make up a declining share of the world’s total population.
• The global Buddhist population will be about the same size it was in 2010, while the Hindu and Jewish populations will be larger than they are today.
• In Europe, Muslims will make up 10% of the overall population.
• India will retain a Hindu majority but also will have the largest Muslim population of any country in the world, surpassing Indonesia.
• In the United States, Christians will decline from more than three-quarters of the population in 2010 to two-thirds in 2050, and Judaism will no longer be the largest non-Christian religion. Muslims will be more numerous in the U.S. than people who identify as Jewish on the basis of religion.
• Four out of every 10 Christians in the world will live in sub-Saharan Africa.

These are among the global religious trends highlighted in new demographic projections by the Pew Research Center. The projections take into account the current size and geographic distribution of the world’s major religions, age differences, fertility and mortality rates, international migration and patterns in conversion.

The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050

 

[ChristineM]

That's not what I asked. Are you saying that every scientist and/or inventor that has ever lived was non-religious?

You appear to have comprehension problems.

I specifically stated the NAS so don't imply i stated anything different just because it massages your sensibilities.

Certainly in the dark ages with religious indoctrination from birth, most alchemists were religious. Even into the early to mid 20c this state continued, among scientist.

However, NAS members are quite representative of scientists in general today. The previous survey showed a lesser disbelief in the high 80%s indicating that as more knowledge is gained faith is declining, a state that is mirrored by the general public.

 

[ChristineM]

No, they are not growing that fast, but what is noteworthy is how slow atheism and agnosticism have been growing compared to religions since the year 2000.

Please provide sources. Here are some of mine.

The World's Newest Major Religion: No Religion

Study Contends There Are Twice as Many Atheists in America as Polls Show

Atheism to Defeat Religion By 2038 | HuffPost

 

[RedDragon94]

Since you posted a strawman first you have no grounds for complaint.

I didn't ask you.