To Forgive or Not to Forgive?

[Spockrates]

I'm curious what others believe about forgiving, and what the Torah, Christian New Testament and Koran have to say on the subject.

Should we forgive everyone everything every time? Or are there times when we should withhold forgiveness?

 

[JacobEzra.]

Mercy is pretty good thing. Really, its better for both parties to forgive because carrying around a grudge can be a bit tough on the soul.

But thats just big talk really because there are people who will do unforgivable acts towards you.

 

[Tumah]

I'm curious what others believe about forgiving, and what the Torah, Christian New Testament and Koran have to say on the subject.

Should we forgive everyone everything every time? Or are there times when we should withhold forgiveness?

It says not to hold a grudge. Lev. 19:17,18. So unless there are any verses that indicate specific instances where one may hate, I guess one would always have to forgive. This would be particularly important if one has a sin or 239845293843298745 under one's belt that one would like G-d to forgive him for as well.

 

[Spockrates]

Mercy is pretty good thing. Really, its better for both parties to forgive because carrying around a grudge can be a bit tough on the soul.

But thats just big talk really because there are people who will do unforgivable acts towards you.

JacobEzra:

Thank you for replying. Yes, I guess I'm wondering if the unforgivable should ever be forgiven. I suppose that depends on what firgiveness is. Would you say it is ceasing to hold a grudge, or sit it something more?

 

[Spockrates]

It says not to hold a grudge. Lev. 19:17,18. So unless there are any verses that indicate specific instances where one may hate, I guess one would always have to forgive. This would be particularly important if one has a sin or 239845293843298745 under one's belt that one would like G-d to forgive him for as well.

I appreciate the reply, and especially the scripture. Thank you.

17 “‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart.Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudgeagainst anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

(Lev. 19)​

Would you say that abstaining from hate (emotion) and ceasing to hold a grudge (desire) and not taking revenge (action) are three aspects of forgiving? Or do you suppose that only one of these three (not holding a grudge) is all that forgiveness is?

 

[Tumah]

I appreciate the reply, and especially the scripture. Thank you.

17 “‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart.Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudgeagainst anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

(Lev. 19)​

Would you say that abstaining from hate (emotion) and ceasing to hold a grudge (desire) and not taking revenge (action) are three aspects of forgiving?

They could be understood that way. Without forgiving the person, how can one abstain from holding the grudge?

 

[Spockrates]

They could be understood that way. Without forgiving the person, how can one abstain from holding the grudge?

Agreed! Whatever forgiving is, it is at least not holding a grudge. But is that all it is?

 

[Tumah]

Agreed! Whatever forgiving is, it is at least not holding a grudge. But is that all it is?

And not hating him. And loving him. All those still apply to.

 

[Spockrates]

Tumah:

Yes, but how must I love and not hate--with my thoughts only, or also with my actions? The reason I ask is I've been told by more than a few that what I do is not forgiveness. Forgiving is not more than a feeling, they tell me. They are Christians who give me such counsel. Trying to determine if G-d agrees with them.

 

[Tumah]

Tumah:

Yes, but how must I love and not hate--with my thoughts only, or also with my actions? The reason I as is I've been told by more than a few that what I do is not forgiveness. Forgiving is not more than a feeling, they tell me. They are Christians who give me such counsel. Trying to determine if G-d agrees with them.

Well, I guess that depends. If the reason they are telling you this is because you have been expressing your feelings with inappropriate touching, then yes I agree with them that forgiveness is only in the heart.
Otherwise, we see that love needs to have expression as in Deut. 6:5

 

[Spockrates]

Well, I guess that depends. If the reason they are telling you this is because you have been expressing your feelings with inappropriate touching, then yes I agree with them that forgiveness is only in the heart.
Otherwise, we see that love needs to have expression as in Deut. 6:5

LOL! I think I get the joke about inappropriate touching. But seriously, it seem to me that some acts might be genuine acts of forgiveness. For example, in the excellent film Schindler's List, the protagonist of the film advises the Nazi officer in charge of a concentration camp that one of the marks of a good leader is to pardon those who have offended him. That is, to forgive is to remove the deserved consequences from a person. Do you think there are times when this is what it means to forgive?

 

[Tumah]

LOL! I think I get the joke about inappropriate touching. But seriously, it seem to me that some acts might be genuine acts of forgiveness. For example, in the excellent film Schindler's List, the protagonist of the film advises the Nazi officer in charge of a concentration camp that one of the marks of a good leader is to pardon those who have offended him. That is, to forgive is to remove the deserved consequences from a person. Do you think there are times when this is what it means to forgive?

Its definitely a step.

 

[Spockrates]

Its definitely a step.

Indeed! A small step for some, but a giant leap for many. But is it a necessary step required to forgive, or an extra step besides forgiving?

 

[Spockrates]

Otherwise, we see that love needs to have expression as in Deut. 6:5

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
(Deut. 6:5)

Yes, and I suppose Jesus was right when he taught that perhaps the best way to express love for G-d was to follow these commands:

“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love yourneighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.'"
(Lev. 19:18)

It seems to me that taking revenge implies giving some consequences for undesired behavior. Wouldn't pardoning someone--or not giving them consequences they deserve--be that form of love we call forgiveness?

 

[Tumah]

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
(Deut. 6:5)

Yes, and I suppose Jesus was right when he taught that perhaps the best way to express love for G-d was to follow these commands:

“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love yourneighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.'"
(Lev. 19:18)

It seems to me that taking revenge implies giving some consequences for undesired behavior. Wouldn't pardoning someone--or not giving them consequences they deserve--be that form of love we call forgiveness?

It seems like it to me.

 

[Spockrates]

It seems like it to me.

Yes, and I find it interesting that when asked what the greatest commandment was, Jesus quoted Deut. 6:4, saying it was the greatest and Lev.19:18, saying it was like the greatest. But for some reason, he left out the words, "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people." Perhaps he did this because loving one's neighbor has a wider application then simply not seeking revenge. One might love someone in need who has done no wrong against him.

But then I might be boring you with what interests me. I'm interested in hearing your opinions about forgiveness. Am I right in assuming you are Jewish? If so, what do the rabbis or other teachers you respect have to say about when and when not to forgive? Or what is your own opinion?

 

[Tumah]

Yes, and I find it interesting that when asked what the greatest commandment was, Jesus quoted Deut. 6:4, saying it was the greatest and Lev.19:18, saying it was like the greatest. But for some reason, he left out the words, "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people." Perhaps he did this because loving one's neighbor has a wider application then simply not seeking revenge. One might love someone in need who has done no wrong against him.

But then I might be boring you with what interests me. I'm interested in hearing your opinions about forgiveness. Am I right in assuming you are Jewish? If so, what do the rabbis or other teachers you respect have to say about when and when not to forgive? Or what is your own opinion?

I can't comment on what Jesus said, as I have no idea.

As to what I believe, I've stated before, forgiving is always a positive thing. I can't think off hand of when it might not be.

 

[NoX]

Quran always advices to forgive. Islam means peace. There may be some extreme cases that forgiving would be another crime over a crime.

 

[Spockrates]

I can't comment on what Jesus said, as I have no idea.

Yes, no problem. I was just thinking out loud and not really expecting you to know.

.

As to what I believe, I've stated before, forgiving is always a positive thing. I can't think off hand of when it might not be.

I'm sorry. You lost me. What do you mean by positive? Also, I can think of many times when forgiveness might not be. When someone does no wrong to me, for example. But are you saying you can think of no example of when you might need to withhold forgiveness?

 

[Tumah]

Yes, no problem. I was just thinking out loud and not really expecting you to know.



I'm sorry. You lost me. What do you mean by positive? I can think of many things forgiveness is not, so I must be misunderstanding you.

I mean that I think forgiveness is always something good to do.