To follow the Tao, does one really have to stop seeking knowledge?

[NeilPye]

I just finished the Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff, an excellent and humorous introduction to Taoism. In the book, there is a story by Chuang-Tse included, of Yen Hui and his master:

"I am learning," Yen Hui said.

"How?" The Master asked.

"I forgot the Rules of Righteousness and the Levels of Benevolence," he replied.

"Good, but could be better." said the Master.

A few days later, Yen Hui remarked, "I am making progress."

"How?" The Master asked.

"I forgot the Rituals and Music." he answered.

"Better, but not perfect." The Master said.

Some time later, Yen Hui said to the Master, "Now I sit down and forget everything."

The Master, looked up, startled. "What do you mean forget everything?" he quickly asked.

"I forgot my body and senses, and leave all appearance and information behind," answered Yen Hui. "In the Middle of Nothing, I joined the Source of All Things."

The Master bowed. "You have transcended the limitations of time and knowledge. I am far behind you. You have found the Way!"


Does this story literally mean to abandon a quest for knowledge, as it is useless? I love learning, and would find it hard to stop learning to find the Tao.

 

[WayFarer]

Does this story literally mean to abandon a quest for knowledge, as it is useless? I love learning, and would find it hard to stop learning to find the Tao.

Knowledge is not useless, but it is not complete either, so it can be a stumbling block. What you think you know may get in the way of what you want to know. So to understand you should know everything or nothing, anything else is a distraction.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Does this story literally mean to abandon a quest for knowledge, as it is useless? I love learning, and would find it hard to stop learning to find the Tao.

Hi NeilPye, no it doesn't mean that, it merely conveys the understanding that once the Tao is realized, there is nothing more to learn,...the 'journey' of discovery is over.

The false duality of seeker of knowledge of the Tao and the Tao itself disappears when the Tao is realized for the Tao is non-dual and transcends conceptual knowledge of the ten thousand things.

 

[zenzero]

Friend NeilPye,

To follow the Tao, does one really have to stop seeking knowledge?

That was a beautiful story. But you missed the point therein and so your query.
Here it is clear that Yen Hui as a SEEKER has finally merged with the SOUGHT and nothing else remains as the seeker himself is no more.
What you ask is a point where the seeker [of knowledge] is STILL AROUND.
The Self /Ego is transcended by Yen Hui and he no more knows even who he is.

"In the Middle of Nothing, I joined the Source of All Things."

Love & rgds

 

[WayFarer]

Allow me to elaborate a bit further on my earlier post.
An event happens. Two people see the event. One knows all, the other nothing.
The one who knows all understands the event. They are not deceived by their own thoughts because they have complete knowledge.
The one who knows nothing accepts the event as it happened. They are not deceived by preconceived notions that are often the result of incomplete knowledge.
Both experience the same event. Both accept it for what it is. Neither are deceived. The ultimate result is both were able to experience the moment for what it was, not for what they thought it to be.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Allow me to elaborate a bit further on my earlier post.
An event happens. Two people see the event. One knows all, the other nothing.
The one who knows all understands the event. They are not deceived by their own thoughts because they have complete knowledge.
The one who knows nothing accepts the event as it happened. They are not deceived by preconceived notions that are often the result of incomplete knowledge.
Both experience the same event. Both accept it for what it is. Neither are deceived. The ultimate result is both were able to experience the moment for what it was, not for what they thought it to be.

Hi WayFarer, with due respect, when the Tao has been realized, all conceptual thinking ceases as non-duality IS. Your explanation of your present understanding on the subject is due to your mind's present dualistic framework of perception of reality, but it is far from realization of the non-dual Tao,..."one who says does not know, the One who knows does not say".

 

[DreadFish]

Hi WayFarer, with due respect, when the Tao has been realized, all conceptual thinking ceases as non-duality IS. Your explanation of your present understanding on the subject is due to your mind's present dualistic framework of perception of reality, but it is far from realization of the non-dual Tao,..."one who says does not know, the One who knows does not say".

Agreed.

To expand a bit, with a non-dual perspective on reality, there is no 'knowledge' to 'gain' as all is whole and complete as it is, rather the cessation of dualistic conceptual thinking uncovers ones natural nature, ones view becomes full and whole and one resumes themselves.

Just my understanding (^_^)

 

[WayFarer]

Ben_D, no offense taken.
Agree that that Tao is non dualistic, however Tao Te Ching is filled with "is" and "is not" examples through which we learn of the Tao. No one can know nothing, nor can they know everything. As extremes the Tao would not allow them to maintain. However as examples one can learn from the lesson of accepting things as they happen without preconceived notions and instead learn to live consciously and with harmony.

 

[Flow]

I just finished the Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff, an excellent and humorous introduction to Taoism. In the book, there is a story by Chuang-Tse included, of Yen Hui and his master:

"I am learning," Yen Hui said.

"How?" The Master asked.

"I forgot the Rules of Righteousness and the Levels of Benevolence," he replied.

"Good, but could be better." said the Master.

A few days later, Yen Hui remarked, "I am making progress."

"How?" The Master asked.

"I forgot the Rituals and Music." he answered.

"Better, but not perfect." The Master said.

Some time later, Yen Hui said to the Master, "Now I sit down and forget everything."

The Master, looked up, startled. "What do you mean forget everything?" he quickly asked.

"I forgot my body and senses, and leave all appearance and information behind," answered Yen Hui. "In the Middle of Nothing, I joined the Source of All Things."

The Master bowed. "You have transcended the limitations of time and knowledge. I am far behind you. You have found the Way!"


Does this story literally mean to abandon a quest for knowledge, as it is useless? I love learning, and would find it hard to stop learning to find the Tao.

Zenzero hit the nail on the Head. Yen Hui has dropped his Ego and is now in a state of Non-Entity. If you know something, there is an Ego, there is thought. You cant drop thought with all of this knowlegde and wanting to know this or that, you must drop the knowledge and the desire for knowledge and rest in a state of perpetual oneness with Tao. So, yes, Knowledge is of no use in the end. Even knowledge of the Tao must be dropped. The moment you think you know something, your the farthest away from knowledge. The moment you cease to know anything, you know everything.

 

[WayFarer]

Yen Hui has dropped his Ego and is now in a state of Non-Entity.

Taoist, would you go into this a bit further? Is there a definition (Non-Entity) that is specifically Taoist in nature? When Yen Hui said "I joined the Source of All Things." it doesn't sound like he lost his sense of self/ego. (Not being argumentative, seriously inquiring.)

 

[Flow]

Taoist, would you go into this a bit further? Is there a definition (Non-Entity) that is specifically Taoist in nature? When Yen Hui said "I joined the Source of All Things." it doesn't sound like he lost his sense of self/ego. (Not being argumentative, seriously inquiring.)

Dont worry, your fine, I dont see you as argueing. The word "I" cant be left out, its purly for language. If I were to leave the word "I" out of my sentences they would not sound too good or be well put together and no one would understand what is being said. To understand what Yen Hui is saying, you must go beyond the words to his experiance. Words are just pointers, discriptions, but if you get caught up in them, you wont go to far beyond.

Non-entity is the state of Egolessness, now there is no one there, there is only the One, the essence, the Tao. It has also been called Non-Being, because now you are not, and yet you still are, that is the mystery of the Yin-Yang, everything comes together in union. You are not, but you still are, Yin-Yang.

Trying to understand this will not work for you, you wont ever understand this right, but if you drop the Ego/Mind/Thought, it will come to you. If you think, there is seperation. If you think, there is no feeling. But when thinking stops, you begin to feel. So instead of thinking about the tree, you feel the tree, you become the tree.

 

[WayFarer]

Trying to understand this will not work for you, you wont ever understand this right, but if you drop the Ego/Mind/Thought, it will come to you. If you think, there is seperation. If you think, there is no feeling. But when thinking stops, you begin to feel. So instead of thinking about the tree, you feel the tree, you become the tree.

Ah, I see. This sounds similar to the form of meditation I practice. Where the self melts (basically) into the surroundings and you begin to feel your surroundings. Perhaps that is a step along the path. (where there is no path, of course. ) Thank you.

 

[joea]

Does this story literally mean to abandon a quest for knowledge, as it is useless? I love learning, and would find it hard to stop learning to find the Tao.

No to abandon your knowledge is not all useless, one needs some to get by in this world, but as Ben D mentioned, you missed the point..because once you turn inwards to yourself, that knowledge that you have, becomes useless...it does not fit with your "original face".

 

[blazeryin]

It means that if you know you are not academically bright, a bit slow, a bit dumb academically you have a better chance of seeing and being receptive and open to the truth that you are seeking. Because you acknowledge the truth you know nothing you are always able and ready to learn and grow. Most people people think I know this or that or am educated, I am smart academically etc have zero chance of seeing or understanding the truth let alone the tao. Academic intelligence is a stumbling block to knowing the tao. If you realize every day you are supremely dumb when it comes to knowing anything you have a very good chance of knowing the tao. Wisdom is a different type of intelligence that is not valued in society which can lead to things like having lots of material things in life but very little happiness is the result of that type of intelligence.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Wayfarer,

When Yen Hui said "I joined the Source of All Things." it doesn't sound like he lost his sense of self/ego. (Not being argumentative, seriously inquiring.)

You inquiry is genuine and understandable; however kindly understand that here Yen Hui is stating that his *I* has joined the source of all things and in merging the *I* is lost and Yen Hui is no more an ego but a form with a label Yen Hui and if at all the *I* is used between two enlightened people it is understood that the *I* here refers to a part of the whole and the *I8 is an indication or pointer to where it is located.

Love & rgds

 

[angrymoose]

Does this story literally mean to abandon a quest for knowledge, as it is useless? I love learning, and would find it hard to stop learning to find the Tao.

No. Taoist tradition included all the science of the day, 1200 years ago.

The founder of one of the Taoist temples I went to in Hangzhou, Ge Hong, was a scientist, seeking immortality. Apparently, he discovered some dye processes in this quest.

Chinese medicine, cooking, sexual practices, martial arts, tea making, ... are all associated with Taoism somewhat.

What Taoism does teach a person is the limitations of the written word and of language. Some things are learned by doing. This is closely associated with the concept of Wu-Wei.

One interpretation of Wu-Wei, is a state of knowledge/familiarity with something through practice and experience. (Another interpretation is going back to nature and living a humble life. I suspect both have grains of truth.)

Somebody told me a Taoist canon contained 1200 books. Imagine!!!

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
About everyday learning and Tao.

Personal understanding:
Taoism is all about living in harmony with existence [whole] and studying is understanding about the components that go into harmonizing.
Both ends together makes a complete whole.

Love & rgds

 

[angrymoose]

Hi

What this with the bold type and "friends"? I know its your style but its rather artificial. If everything is bold, boldness becomes meaningless.

For the record, the content of your post is good.

Taoism is all about living in harmony with existence [whole] and studying is understanding about the components that go into harmonizing.
Both ends together makes a complete whole.

Well, I think, I agree. Off the top of my head, I'd add to what you've said:
-- in addition to studying the components, you would study how they harmonize, patterns, etc, etc.

Lastly? Taoism should be differentiated from the Tao itself. Taoism can refer to specific mostly ancient traditions and that is different from the Tao itself which is rather universal.

The Chinese invented Taoism, the Tao always was.

The integration is

 

[zenzero]

Friend angrymoose,

What this with the bold type and "friends"? I know its your style but its rather artificial. If everything is bold, boldness becomes meaningless.

Keeping the age and condition of the eyes used personally see better in bold so is the use.

Lastly? Taoism should be differentiated from the Tao itself. Taoism can refer to specific mostly ancient traditions and that is different from the Tao itself which is rather universal.

The Chinese invented Taoism, the Tao always was.

Friend Tao is another label for the *whole* and so Tao includes everything or rather every form or no-form are its components including the Chinese and the practice of Taoism; nothing is outside the *whole*. The WHOLE is already integrated with all its components.

Love & rgds

 

[angrymoose]

Tao is another label for the *whole* and so Tao includes everything or rather every form or no-form are its components including the Chinese and the practice of Taoism; nothing is outside the *whole*. The WHOLE is already integrated with all its components.

Well, although Tao is usually translated as "the way", I agree but that doesn't tell one what Taoism is. Often Taoism is Chinese and specifically refering to a large set of related Chinese traditions.

I'm sorry about your eyes. My brain just goes nuts with the bold. :cold: