Three Students Found Dead Just Outside of Hebron

[Quiddity]

I watched one the young man's aunt get interviewed here in southern California, it was very sad. Alav Ha-sholom....

 

[metis]

I watched one the young man's aunt get interviewed here in southern California, it was very sad. Alav Ha-sholom....

Just a friendly reminder that this is a Judaism DIR forum.

 

[LAGoff]

I would suggest both a gentler and more realistic take on life.
You write as if depressed.
I suspect that comes from your belief that the concept of of "rodef" means that we should just round up people and kill them.
If you stayed away from that kind of thinking, you might feel better.

On the other hand, the reason G-d said that, after warning a person who is pursuing you to kill you, that you should kill them first, is that G-d values human life above all else.
It is not good to simply lie down and die because you don't believe in defending your life by killing another.

It seems you are contradicting yourself.
You say we shouldn't just round up people and kill them, and then you say we should kill them first... by killing another.

Just who are these persons we should or shouldn't pursue, chase and kill?.
Since I don't think you are saying that we should pursue and kill the 95 percent of Arab West Bankers who are innocent because of the 5 percent who are not, are you saying that we should only pursue and kill the 5 percent?

 

[Moishe3rd]

It seems you are contradicting yourself.
You say we shouldn't just round up people and kill them, and then you say we should kill them first... by killing another.

Just who are these persons we should or shouldn't pursue, chase and kill?.
Since I don't think you are saying that we should pursue and kill the 95 percent of Arab West Bankers who are innocent because of the 5 percent who are not, are you saying that we should only pursue and kill the 5 percent?

The Torah defines a "rodef" as one who is pursuing you to kill you.
It is a complex topic but, as I stated previously, the simple understanding is that if you know that someone is pursuing you to kill you and, you warn them that they are liable to the death penalty and, they continue to pursue you to kill you, then they should be killed before they kill you.
This is from the standpoint of Jewish Law.
It is obvious to me and, I would think others but, apparently not- that this is not a practical or possible application of Jewish Law in today's world.
There is no country in the world, including Israel, that operates under Jewish Law.
(The Torah tells us that ALL death penalty cases cannot be applied unless there is a real Bais HaMikdosh; Jewish Temple, and a real sitting Sanhedrin in Jerusalem.)

So, I either apologize for being unclear or, I state my incredulity at the silly questions posed that appear to deliberately misunderstand what I wrote.

 

[LAGoff]

I have just started to read about what is actually happening in the West Bank.
And it goes against everything I thought-- or wanted to think-- was going on.

It seems that we are the rodefs; so the premise of your answers-- that they are the rodefs (the aggressors)-- doesn't work any more as an animating principle for me.

That being said, I still hold firmly that the Land (Judea and Samaria) is ours and we no right to give back what Hashem has given us. However, I also firmly hold that we should treat the [95%] innocent millions of Arabs in the West Bank a little better than current Israeli policy.

I guess what I really want to know is what a religious Israeli soldier who is told as a matter of policy to make life miserable for the 95% of innocent West Bank arabs but wants to soften the blows against these innocents because, after all, he sees himself as a racham b'nei rachamim (a compassionate person among compassionate people). According to you, it seems there is no room for compassion, as you see the whole West Bank population as rodefs who must be dealt with without compassion.

 

[dantech]

New York - Triplets Named After Slain Teens - JP Updates | JP Updates

 

[metis]

I'm a bit nervous as my granddaughter and her group are supposedly going to the Kotel today. I hope they go early before the mosque empties out-- either than or change the day they visit there.

Shabbat shalom to you all.

 

[dantech]

I'm a bit nervous as my granddaughter and her group are supposedly going to the Kotel today. I hope they go early before the mosque empties out-- either than or change the day they visit there.

Shabbat shalom to you all.

BH everything will be fine and they should all come back in peace and unharmed.

 

[metis]

BH everything will be fine and they should all come back in peace and unharmed.

Yes, I'm quite optimistic because I know how far the Israelis go out of their way to especially protect children, but you still can't expect an old grampa not to worry some.

Thanks for the above, and Shabbat shalom.

 

[dantech]

It still isn't to clear why the Palestinian teen was murdered, but there are rumors saying that it was by Muslim extremists because he was gay.
There is still the distinct possibility that it was indeed Israelis to avenge the three boys' deaths.

 

[Moishe3rd]

It still isn't to clear why the Palestinian teen was murdered, but there are rumors saying that it was by Muslim extremists because he was gay.
There is still the distinct possibility that it was indeed Israelis to avenge the three boys' deaths.

Why? On what basis is that a distinct possibility? I could also speculate that he was taken by aliens. That seems as likely or as much of a distinct possibility.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It still isn't to clear why the Palestinian teen was murdered, but there are rumors saying that it was by Muslim extremists because he was gay.
There is still the distinct possibility that it was indeed Israelis to avenge the three boys' deaths.

To spread such rumors is outrageous.

 

[dantech]

Why? On what basis is that a distinct possibility? I could also speculate that he was taken by aliens. That seems as likely or as much of a distinct possibility.

On the basis of being way to coincidental that it happens a day after three Jewish teens were murdered. It remains a possibility, sadly...

 

[dantech]

To spread such rumors is outrageous.

I believe they are based on a video that was found of the kidnapping. Also, people around the teenager's neighbourhood said something about how he was getting a lot of hate for his "lifestyle choice". I haven't read about it, but my cousin works in the Police Department as a detective, precisely in that zone and told me all these things yesterday.

 

[CMike]

I have just started to read about what is actually happening in the West Bank.
And it goes against everything I thought-- or wanted to think-- was going on.

It seems that we are the rodefs; so the premise of your answers-- that they are the rodefs (the aggressors)-- doesn't work any more as an animating principle for me.

That being said, I still hold firmly that the Land (Judea and Samaria) is ours and we no right to give back what Hashem has given us. However, I also firmly hold that we should treat the [95%] innocent millions of Arabs in the West Bank a little better than current Israeli policy.

I guess what I really want to know is what a religious Israeli soldier who is told as a matter of policy to make life miserable for the 95% of innocent West Bank arabs but wants to soften the blows against these innocents because, after all, he sees himself as a racham b'nei rachamim (a compassionate person among compassionate people). According to you, it seems there is no room for compassion, as you see the whole West Bank population as rodefs who must be dealt with without compassion.

I believe Israel is far too restrained in dealing with these people.

Israel puts it's own soliders at risk by pin pointing terrorists.

The terrorists intentionally attack from mosques, hospitals, and schools, knowing that Israel cares more about their children than they do.

Hamas now part of the government voted in by the arabs in judea and samaria have vowed to kill all the jews in Israel.

No other contrary would have as much restraint as Israel dealing with people who fire rockets into their cities and have vowed to murder all of the jews in Israel.

It's really very simple.

[youtube]HEKwXsmDXOA[/youtube]
Prager University: The Middle East Problem - YouTube

 

[CMike]

Why? On what basis is that a distinct possibility? I could also speculate that he was taken by aliens. That seems as likely or as much of a distinct possibility.

We don't know.

It can be for any reason.

 

[CMike]

It seems you are contradicting yourself.
You say we shouldn't just round up people and kill them, and then you say we should kill them first... by killing another.

Just who are these persons we should or shouldn't pursue, chase and kill?.
Since I don't think you are saying that we should pursue and kill the 95 percent of Arab West Bankers who are innocent because of the 5 percent who are not, are you saying that we should only pursue and kill the 5 percent?

Based on jewish law if you know someone is coming to kill you, you have a duty to get up earlier and kill him first.

 

[CMike]

Golda Meir summed it up.

"Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."

 

[Moishe3rd]

On the basis of being way to coincidental that it happens a day after three Jewish teens were murdered. It remains a possibility, sadly...

So does alien abduction.
And spontaneous contusions and combustion.

I would humbly suggest that a person ought to evaluate the last 1,000 times that Jews in Israel were murdered or abducted and attempt to calculate how many RANDOM non Israeli Arabs were then simply murdered....
And then, perhaps, stop making asinine, slanderous speculations.
Just a thought.

 

[dantech]

So does alien abduction.
And spontaneous contusions and combustion.

I would humbly suggest that a person ought to evaluate the last 1,000 times that Jews in Israel were murdered or abducted and attempt to calculate how many RANDOM non Israeli Arabs were then simply murdered....
And then, perhaps, stop making asinine, slanderous speculations.
Just a thought.

Do you know the meaning of "possibility"?