Thoughts on the Baha'i Faith

[InvestigateTruth]

It appears that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was taught about the Bab and given books to read. That could explain a lot.

that Interaction with The People of Bahá: A response to Ahmadi Answers

"...... He had a detailed meeting with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in which not only the glad-tidings of the Advent of the Mehdi (The Báb) and the Messiah (Bahá’u’lláh) were communicated to him but he was also provided with a box full of Bahá’í Books and Tablets for study. In his book Al-Balagh (البلاغ), whose other name is Faryad-e-Dard (فریاد درد), Mirza Ghulam Ahmad also recorded a listing of the subjects in which he gained mastery. This listing also mentions the Bábí books. This shows that he studied the Writings of The Báb in detail.

In the year 1900 the chief secretary of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Hakeem Noor-ud-Din (who later became the first successor of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad), through letters established communication with the distinguished Bahá’í scholar Allama Mirza Abu’l-Fadl Gulpaygani in order to get answers to some tough religious questions. Mirza Abu’l-Fadl was residing in Cairo in those days. In response, Mirza Abu’l-Fadl wrote and presented a book titled “الدُرر البہیة فی جواب اسئلتہ الہندیہ” as an answer. In this book he not only gave detailed and rational answers to those challenging questions but also expounded the message of the Bahá’í Faith.... "

Regards Tony

Very interesting. I didn't know this.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That was not in question. It what do they say about them? A lessor type of prophet? Even though one is said to be the Mahdi. Then Joseph Smith claims to have spoken with an angel and wrote down a story that says Jesus came to the Americas. So unless that is true, then what can Baha'i say is true about Joseph Smith. Then Guru Nanak founded a separate religion. How different is that then what others did that are considered to be manifestations? It's just at some point, even Baha'i have to say that some of these people are false teachers and prophets... like maybe L Ron Hubbard? Or is he a lessor type of prophet also?

This is what Shoghi Effendi had said about Joseph Smith:


"he was a religious teacher sensitive to the spiritual currents flowing in the early 19th century directly from the appearance of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh and the Revelation of Their Messages of hope and Divine Guidance. "


I think, same words can be applicable to Mirza Qulam Ahmad in Bahai View.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. to date there has not been another all embracive path given.
"there no compulsion in religion"

How do Bahais become an all embracing religion by denying the scriptures of all other religions, Torah, Avesta, Bible, Qur'an, Gita or Dhammapada? That is the most hypocritical statement. You say that every other message is corrupted and Qur'an's message is not understood correctly by Muslims.
Yeah, I have heard this line again and again from religions. There is no compulsion in religion, only superstition and false belief.

We must be careful not to eliminate the diversity, minorities are to be protected in the Baha'i Law.

Yeah, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists are minorities in the Bahai empire. So thankful to you, Bahais, to have protected and not eliminated us - the minorities. (Elephants thank the ant)

 

[Aupmanyav]

This is what Shoghi Effendi had said about Joseph Smith:

"he was a religious teacher sensitive to the spiritual currents flowing in the early 19th century directly from the appearance of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh and the Revelation of Their Messages of hope and Divine Guidance. "

I think, same words can be applicable to Mirza Qulam Ahmad in Bahai View.

Was Shoghi not aware that Joseph Smith (born 1805) pre-dated Bab (born 1819) and Bahaollah (born 1817). So the spiritual currents must have flown from Joseph Smith to Bab and Bahaollah and not in the reverse direction. Why did Shoghi put history upside-down?

But the big question is "Why Shoghi dismissed the divine mission of Joseph Smith and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad so perfunctorily?" Did Shoghi had authority over a messenmger of God to deny these two? Shoghi or Abdul Baha were not messengers of Allah.

By denying the divine mission of Joseph Smith and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Shoghi became a sinner in the eyes of Bahaollah, since Bahaollah said that one should not refuse the claim of a divine messenger. And you consider Shoghi as your guide. Allah's message to Bahais is already corrupted by the writings of Shoghi Effendi.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How do Bahais become an all embracing religion by denying the scriptures of all other religions, Torah, Avesta, Bible, Qur'an, Gita or Dhammapada? That is the most hypocritical statement. You say that every other message is corrupted and Qur'an's message is not understood correctly by Muslims.
Yeah, I have heard this line again and again from religions. There is no compulsion in religion, only superstition and false belief.

I can read all those scriptures and embrace what they say, I accept them all. I also use logic and reason when I read them, to sort what is good and what may have been added by others.

So are you saying, I should accept them as you see I should, or as only as others see them?

It can be considered, if one so chooses, that many people who used to believe only in either the Torah, Avesta, Bible, Quran, Bhagavad Gita or Dhammapada, now believe in all those and the and the Baha'i writings.

You know we have been over this many times, I will always wish you well and happy and you are welcome any time, call in if you venture this way.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Say 'I believe in all' and then refute all. Sure, if I come that way, I will check with you. First, Covid allowing me (at the moment I am confined in my home for the last three and a half month. People over 65 years or age and children under 10 years of age are not supposed to go out. Second, I should come that way.

 

[oldbadger]

I tried to read an introduction on the Baha‘i faith but it went like : … As it is evident that there is just one God ..., so I did something I rarely do and gave up reading on page 4.

However, I think I can now can understand better the marketing potential of Baha‘i to sensitive Christians who can‘t get along with the commandment to “love everybody” and yet to disregard/hate religion X because it’s not Christian.

I also read (probably on this forum?) that some Christians will believe the strangest things in order to reinforce the belief that there’s a daddy in heaven instead of facing the opposite option.

With the Baha’is, I think it’s a similar thing, there always seems to be yet another explanation on why a Big God desperately needs us tiny specks on the surface of Earth so that he authorizes some of those specks to explain Him to the others.

I like Bahais, the few who like me, but I have little respect for this religion, and I find that if I reverse most passages written by Bahauallah that they produce more clarity for me.

In other words I find that Bahaism is all about double-think.

They sound progressive and they are one of the rare cases who successfully dodged the “anti-cult movement”, so, in the perception of the public, "No, they are not a cult”.

No...... Bahai didn't dodge the anti-cult movement. They were included in the book 'Kingdom of the Cults' which was published in the late 60's....... but that was written by a Christian on an agenda!

 

[oldbadger]

No, they are not the latest. The latest was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Ahmadiyya Muslims. He was the mahdi, the redeemer, the returning Jesus.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Wikipedia

I've just read that Ghulam Ahmad believed that Jesus died a natural death. I'm most impressed by that....... I think that's right.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I've just read that Ghulam Ahmad believed that Jesus died a natural death. I'm most impressed by that....... I think that's right.

And probably on a cross. Till that time, it may be OK. In India, a Sufi mystic, Sarmad Kashani, was got beheaded by Moghul Emperor Aurangzeb. Sarmad only said 'lā ʾilāha' (There is no Allah) but refused to chant ʾillā -llāhu' (but Allah). That happens.
But then, like Bahaollah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad never gave any proof of his claim of being the mahdi and messenger of Allah.

No .. Bahai didn't dodge the anti-cult movement. They were included in the book 'Kingdom of the Cults' which was published in the late 60's .. but that was written by a Christian on an agenda!

If a religion worships or revers highly a historical person and would term differing from him as being a heretic, then it is a cult. The Indian and pagan religions accept differences.

 

[oldbadger]

And probably on a cross. Till that time, it may be OK. In India, a Sufi mystic, Sarmad Kashani, was got beheaded by Moghul Emperor Aurangzeb. Sarmad only said 'lā ʾilāha' (There is no Allah) but refused to chant ʾillā -llāhu' (but Allah). That happens.
But then, like Bahaollah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad never gave any proof of his claim of being the mahdi and messenger of Allah.If a religion worships or revers highly a historical person and would term differing from him as being a heretic, then it is a cult. The Indian and pagan religions accept differences.

So you're not much impressed by Ghulam Ahmad?
What would pass as proof?

For instance, you would not have to prove that you are part of God to me, I know it already.
I realise this is different to a person claiming to be a special messenger, but then, I would class Khalil Gibran as a special messenger and I don't think that he even claimed to be one.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am very hard to be impressed by anything other than complete honesty. A monkey in his ancestral village of Quadian, Punjab which goes up and down a stair case eternally. Can Allah not do it? That will certainly impress me. I am no part of any God or Allah, I am the whole of Brahman, as my books say:

"Purnam adah, Purnam idam, Purnat Purnam udacyate; Purnasya Purnam adaya, Purnam eva vasishyate."
(That is the whole, this (too) is the whole, from that whole arises this whole;
from the whole, if the whole is given, what remains is still the whole.)
This is Quantum Mechanics. I am not separate from what constitutes me (or you).

Yeah, Khaleel Jibran was special, so sweet, and he was not a liar.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Was Shoghi not aware that Joseph Smith (born 1805) pre-dated Bab (born 1819) and Bahaollah (born 1817). So the spiritual currents must have flown from Joseph Smith to Bab and Bahaollah and not in the reverse direction. Why did Shoghi put history upside-down?

I don't think 12 or 15 years age difference can actually prove Joseph Smith started the spiritual currents.
According to the History, Sheykh Ahmad, and Kazim, were expecting the Mahdi some years before Joseph Smith was born. From the Bahai point of view, that shows the spiritual currents of the Bab and Bahaullah had started by God prior to the birth of the Bab and Bahaullah.

 

[CG Didymus]

When one trims a branch from a tree, it does not dry up and die right away, it takes a little time.

No one will succeed in dividing the Baha'i Faith, their is a written covenant provable in law. Thus I see a few people with a website can plagiarise a name against a lawful covernant, are not a division, they are but a few thief's. A handful may decide to join them.

"The peace and security of mankind are unattainable, unless and until It's unity is firmly established".

Thus the quandary remains CG.

Regards Tony

Since all the other major religions have sects and denominations, which one is the "tree" and which ones are the "cut off" branches?

 

[CG Didymus]

This is what Shoghi Effendi had said about Joseph Smith:


"he was a religious teacher sensitive to the spiritual currents flowing in the early 19th century directly from the appearance of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh and the Revelation of Their Messages of hope and Divine Guidance. "


I think, same words can be applicable to Mirza Qulam Ahmad in Bahai View.

And what did he say about the "Book of Mormon"?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Path offered is not compelling you to change your faith, there is no compulsion in religion

So people of one religion never forced others to convert to another religion?

 

[CG Didymus]

I can read all those scriptures and embrace what they say, I accept them all. I also use logic and reason when I read them, to sort what is good and what may have been added by others.

Okay, so do you embrace the New Testament? Of course you do.... then how much of it do you discard as being "added" in by others? Since Jesus didn't write it, wasn't all of it added in by others? So why keep any of it? There's no "logical" reason his followers would have remembered exactly what Jesus had said.

 

[CG Didymus]

I am very hard to be impressed by anything other than complete honesty. A monkey in his ancestral village of Quadian, Punjab which goes up and down a stair case eternally. Can Allah not do it? That will certainly impress me. I am no part of any God or Allah, I am the whole of Brahman, as my books say:

"Purnam adah, Purnam idam, Purnat Purnam udacyate; Purnasya Purnam adaya, Purnam eva vasishyate."
(That is the whole, this (too) is the whole, from that whole arises this whole;
from the whole, if the whole is given, what remains is still the whole.)
This is Quantum Mechanics. I am not separate from what constitutes me (or you).

Yeah, Khaleel Jibran was special, so sweet, and he was not a liar.

Years ago Baha'is told that he too was influenced by the Baha'i Faith. "Author and artist Kahlil Gibran met Abdu’l-Baha in New York City during the early spring of 1912." But even if it isn't from direct contact, anything good Baha'i take credit for because it is in the air.

 

[Aupmanyav]

@CGDidymus , there is more to truth than Khaleel Jibran ever knew.

I can read all those scriptures and embrace what they say, I accept them all. I also use logic and reason when I read them, to sort what is good and what may have been added by others.

There is no need to use logic when these are words of Allah. Say to Allah, 'I am your servant, and I do as you bid me to do'. That is what Bahaollah did. If you use your brain over scriptures, then you are a heretic. Why would Allah allow someone to change his word? That is denying the existence and power of Allah.

According to the History, Sheykh Ahmad, and Kazim, were expecting the Mahdi some years before Joseph Smith was born.

Sheikh Ahmad and Kazim were expecting the advent of Joseph Smith.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

.Sheikh Ahmad and Kazim were expecting the advent of Joseph Smith.

They couldn't have been waiting for anyone else, because Sheykh Ahmad and Kazim, expected the Mahdi being from lineage of Muhammad, who appears in the year 60 AH. The only person claimed Mahdi in that year, was the Bab.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What do we know of lineages? Perhaps Joseph was of the line of Mohammad or someone else was of Hulagu Khan. That can be known only on examination of the DNA.