Those contradicting Gospels!

[oldbadger]

DAY 7
Contradiction number 7

The gospels differ over the dates of the last supper and hence the crucifixion. This is clear evidence that the gospels were not guided by the Divine Hand of God.

The Synoptics clearly describe the last supper as having been prepared and help on the first day of Passover, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

However John's Gospel explains that the trial and Crucifixion of Jesus took place on this same date. Only The Synoptics or John can be right.

Exhibits:

Mark {14:12} And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the
passover? {14:13} And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.

Matthew {26:17} Now the first [day] of the [feast of] unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? {26:18} And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and
say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. {26:19} And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

Luke {22:7} Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. {22:8} And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

John {18:28} Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover. {18:29} Pilate then went out
unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?

John {19:14} And it was the preparation of the
passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! {19:15} But they cried out, Away with [him,] away with [him,] crucify him



P.S.
Previously
Contradiction 1 Post 1
Contradiction 2 Post 26
Contradiction 3 Post 77
Contradiction 4 Post 104
Contradiction 5 Post 127
Contradiction 6 Post 134

 

[PruePhillip]

No.. the mission I am on is to learn as much about the real Jesus as I can.
Moses was building an unbeatable nation of people, not a bunch of spiritual zombies.
Every single law was for strength, security, safety, health, development and cohesion. Not one is different to that.

All laws of Moses were to nurture and foster relationship between the citizen and God.
Security was God-given when Israel obeyed - as the bible says, not by might nor power,
but by my spirit" said God.
A growing number of churches today get sucked into this "collective" social structure
business, Marxist style, where there's no personal responsibility but social movements
and political awareness. Goodbye to the individual and hello to the tribe.

 

[PruePhillip]

No.... I've spent years thinking about how folks write different accounts, and when Matthew and Luke need to copy another account, and when John doesn't even know when Jesus cleared the Temple, then it's time to start thinking about human errors and not Divine messages.

And that's why I don't believe in General Hannibal and his fighting mountain elephants.
Too many discrepancies, and no hard evidence. It just didn't happen.

 

[oldbadger]

All laws of Moses were to nurture and foster relationship between the citizen and God.

They were not citizens.
But, in any case, do you keep any of those OT laws?

Security was God-given when Israel obeyed - as the bible says, not by might nor power, but by my spirit" said God.

When the Israelites obeyed they got stronger, safer, stayed healthy, were a more cohesive people.

Any who did not keep the laws could get weaker, sicker, less cohesive.

A growing number of churches today get sucked into this "collective" social structure
business, Marxist style, where there's no personal responsibility but social movements
and political awareness. Goodbye to the individual and hello to the tribe.

Those that clung to the movement were like good seed, springing up together.
The individuals fell by the wayside, got smothered, were no good.
Matthew {13:3 - 8 }

 

[oldbadger]

And that's why I don't believe in General Hannibal and his fighting mountain elephants.
Too many discrepancies, and no hard evidence. It just didn't happen.

OK........ I always did worry about the idea of elephants trekking over the Alps. And he didn't have any on the plains of Zalma when he got nobbled.

 

[PruePhillip]

OK........ I always did worry about the idea of elephants trekking over the Alps. And he didn't have any on the plains of Zalma when he got nobbled.

Think it was all myth just to frighten Roman children. In fact, that's how Hannibal was
invoked in Rome with the fear of another "Hannibal at the gates."

 

[oldbadger]

Think it was all myth just to frighten Roman children. In fact, that's how Hannibal was
invoked in Rome with the fear of another "Hannibal at the gates."

OK. But he didn't do badly for an African barbarian.

 

[PruePhillip]

OK. But he didn't do badly for an African barbarian.

yeah but... where's the proof? Sounds a lot like the stories you read in the bible.

 

[oldbadger]

yeah but... where's the proof? Sounds a lot like the stories you read in the bible.

I can debate the historical Jesus fairly strongly, actually.
And I don't doubt the Exodus, etc.

Hmmmm..... I feel comfortable with much of the bible.

 

[eik]

Why are there so many contradictions in the gospel stories?
I'll try to post up one exhibit each day.
If any can explain these differences then that would be interesting.

Contadiction One:
In G-Mark Jesus had not started his mission nor had a single disciple with him when the Baptist was put in prison.

In G-John Jesus had found his disciples, performed miracles in Cana, stayed in Capernaum with his Mother, visited the Temple and caused a big rumpus, returned to Aenon where he was baptising near the Baptist .... who had not been arrested yet.....!!

That's a wholly different story......
How?


Exhibits:-
Mark {1:14} Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, ............... {1:16} Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. {1:17} And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.


John{2:1} And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

John{2:12} After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

John {2:13} And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem............

John 3:22} After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. {3:23} And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. {3:24} For John was not yet cast into prison.

I accept that there is an apparent contradiction. Yet it is possible that there may have been an initial period where Jesus and his disciples discovered each other before the disciples were "officially" called. It may have been that they were not "officially" selected until after John's death, even though in John 1 they appear to be called before John's death. For is likely that some of Jesus' disciples were John's disciples. May be Jesus did not want to be seen to poach them. May be Mark 1:14 denotes the final selection, with all the disciples already well known to Jesus.

(Just my initial thoughts)

 

[PruePhillip]

I can debate the historical Jesus fairly strongly, actually.
And I don't doubt the Exodus, etc.

Hmmmm..... I feel comfortable with much of the bible.

That's good to hear. I read an interesting article last week. Excavations found the bones of
pigeons or doves amongst Jewish temple rubbish. That's no big deal to most people who
read the bible as that is what Jews could offer. Turns out that some 'scholars' have been
claiming the Jews offered chickens instead of doves.
Wait, what?.... 'scholars' can't even believe a poor Jew offered up a pigeon in the temple?
It's so tiresome.

 

[oldbadger]

I accept that there is an apparent contradiction. Yet it is possible that there may have been an initial period where Jesus and his disciples discovered each other before the disciples were "officially" called. It may have been that they were not "officially" selected until after John's death, even though in John 1 they appear to be called before John's death. For is likely that some of Jesus' disciples were John's disciples. May be Jesus did not want to be seen to poach them. May be Mark 1:14 denotes the final selection, with all the disciples already well known to Jesus.

(Just my initial thoughts)

Hello....

Arrest, eik....... not death.
Some of John's disciples did go to Jesus..... I think that Andrew and Philip could have been two ..... maybe.

But for the Synoptics to fail to mention the wedding, the stay at Capernaum with family, the trip to the Great Temple and the return to Aenon is just strange........

 

[oldbadger]

DAY 9

Contradiction 8

While G-John insists that Jesus was so close to Mother and family, the Synoptics clearly show that this was not so.

In the Synoptics Jesus is shown to have become distanced and even estranged from his Mother and family. None of his family were reported to have followed him in his mission, and certainly none were reported to be at his crucifixion. Only a sample of the many exhibits is shown.

But G-John tells us that Jesus's Mother followed him earnestly, even to the foot of the cross, which Roman soldiers would have forbidden for sure.

Mark {3:31} There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. ...............
............ 3:33}
And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? {3:34} And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! (Also in Matthew 12:48 - 50)

Mark {6:4} But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

Mark {15:40} There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; {15:41} (Who also, when he was
in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.
(And Matthew 27-56..... and Luke 24-10)

Matthew {10:36} And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own household. {10:37} He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Matthew {19:29} And every one that hath
forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Luke {14:26} If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and
children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

John {2:1} And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: {2:2} And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

John {2:12} After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they
continued there not many days.

John {19:25} Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.


P.S.
Previously
Contradiction 1 Post 1
Contradiction 2 Post 26
Contradiction 3 Post 77
Contradiction 4 Post 104
Contradiction 5 Post 127
Contradiction 6 Post 134
Contradiction 7 Post 141

 

[oldbadger]

That's good to hear. I read an interesting article last week. Excavations found the bones of
pigeons or doves amongst Jewish temple rubbish. That's no big deal to most people who
read the bible as that is what Jews could offer. Turns out that some 'scholars' have been
claiming the Jews offered chickens instead of doves.
Wait, what?.... 'scholars' can't even believe a poor Jew offered up a pigeon in the temple?
It's so tiresome.

Scholars may have that partially right, Prue.

The Temple money-go-round was a rip-off scam, fleecing the people whilst dishonouring them.

The law said that the people could bring their own sacrifices if they were perfect. Ha ha! A poor peasant could bring his own lamb all the way from the Decapolis to the Temple (to save the crippling Temple charges) and all the Priests had to do was condemn it as imperfect. The peasant would have to buy one, and maybe the priests would offer something for the peasant's own lamb on the pretext of eating it themselves, only to flog it as a sacrfice a few days later.

Maybe the chicken suggestion works...... a bit?

The working Jews were treated like dirt. The Temple coin design (chosen by the Romans in 39BC) was a disgrace. Pagan God on the obverse, graven images on the reverse with Caesars' abbreviated name in Greek. That's really stuffing it to the Jewish people, that is.

No wonder the Baptist stopped the flow of money to the Temple...... for a time. Jesus called for 'Mercy and not sacrifice'.... he knew.

 

[PruePhillip]

Hello....

Arrest, eik....... not death.
Some of John's disciples did go to Jesus..... I think that Andrew and Philip could have been two ..... maybe.

But for the Synoptics to fail to mention the wedding, the stay at Capernaum with family, the trip to the Great Temple and the return to Aenon is just strange........

You don't have a problem with various historians give varying accounts of some event?
Last night I was annoyed at an account of the treatment of German officers in Russia.
The account was of those mostly captured at Stalingrad and how the Soviets observed
the Geneva accords etc. Prisoners had their own library, canteen, could write letters etc..
This was Soviet propaganda IMO.
Most German prisoners in Russia never even made it home again according to most
historians - shot, starved, exposed to the elements etc..
Who is right?

 

[PruePhillip]

Scholars may have that partially right, Prue.

The Temple money-go-round was a rip-off scam, fleecing the people whilst dishonouring them.

The law said that the people could bring their own sacrifices if they were perfect. Ha ha! A poor peasant could bring his own lamb all the way from the Decapolis to the Temple (to save the crippling Temple charges) and all the Priests had to do was condemn it as imperfect. The peasant would have to buy one, and maybe the priests would offer something for the peasant's own lamb on the pretext of eating it themselves, only to flog it as a sacrfice a few days later.

Maybe the chicken suggestion works...... a bit?

The working Jews were treated like dirt. The Temple coin design (chosen by the Romans in 39BC) was a disgrace. Pagan God on the obverse, graven images on the reverse with Caesars' abbreviated name in Greek. That's really stuffing it to the Jewish people, that is.

No wonder the Baptist stopped the flow of money to the Temple...... for a time. Jesus called for 'Mercy and not sacrifice'.... he knew.

Not sure about the Baptist effecting the treasury, but okay.
The temple wasn't John's mission.
I am not sure about the "rip-off" either. The real issue for Jesus is one we ought to be attuned
to ourselves - the temple animals were a CONVENIENCE. You didn't need to bring anything.
Even if the animal was a fair price it was still outside of the law of Moses. The temple wasn't
for commerce.
Same when the people put the Ark of the Covenant on a wagon instead of bearing it upon
their shoulders in Samuel. Convenience.
That's what mainstream religion does - give people convenience.

 

[oldbadger]

You don't have a problem with various historians give varying accounts of some event?
Last night I was annoyed at an account of the treatment of German officers in Russia.
The account was of those mostly captured at Stalingrad and how the Soviets observed
the Geneva accords etc. Prisoners had their own library, canteen, could write letters etc..
This was Soviet propaganda IMO.
Most German prisoners in Russia never even made it home again according to most
historians - shot, starved, exposed to the elements etc..
Who is right?

When I'm focusing upon one research, I don't suddenly redirect my gaze to some other issue.

That's redirection.

 

[PruePhillip]

When I'm focusing upon one research, I don't suddenly redirect my gaze to some other issue.

That's redirection.

That's true. But when you focus upon a topic it helps to look at analogies and metaphors
of the issue at hand.

 

[oldbadger]

Not sure about the Baptist effecting the treasury, but okay.

How many flocked to the Baptist?
Did he need disciples to cope with the baptising?
Could the cleansed and redeemed folks go home after, and not need the Temple rip-off?

The temple wasn't John's mission.

Oh yes it was!
Total corruption, greed, apostasy etc amongst the majority of the priesthood.
No care for the people at all.

I am not sure about the "rip-off" either.

You should research the Temple coinage, the money changing, the sacrifice sales, the other costs and the bed&board rip-offs in and around the city.
You should research about how many folks attended a single great feast, how many priests and how many Levite guards.
..............but somehow I don't think you will....?

The real issue for Jesus is one we ought to be attuned
to ourselves - the temple animals were a CONVENIENCE. You didn't need to bring anything.

Well it would be helpful to read about what Jesus thought and did about it all.
And you did need to bring something..... oh yes! You needed to bring lots of money!

Even if the animal was a fair price it was still outside of the law of Moses. The temple wasn't
for commerce.

But the Temple had become that.
You should look in to it.

Same when the people put the Ark of the Covenant on a wagon instead of bearing it upon
their shoulders in Samuel. Convenience.
That's what mainstream religion does - give people convenience.

Redirection, again.

For some Christians Jesus needs to be adjusted to fit just nicely in to their lives and mindsets.... the rest can be forgotten. I just focus upon as much of the possible and probable history as I can.

 

[oldbadger]

That's true. But when you focus upon a topic it helps to look at analogies and metaphors
of the issue at hand.

What analogy is there that fits with the Baptist cleansing people for nothing so that they don't have to go near a very wicked Temple?

Have you seen the Temple currency for that time. A real smack in the teeth for the Jewish people, and the priesthood didn't care..... too busy copying and practicing the invader's religions..... quite the fashion.