Thiests Believe But What is the Level of Certainity?

[Magic Man]

So we agree. Good. Now, for the analogy.

Please tell me what exactly gives you this conviction that Thiests have 100% certainty in their belief.

The fact that they say they have 100% percent certainty in their belief, as evidenced here. That and it's part of being a theist in general. It's not something people generally take lightly, but something that is a huge part of their life to be believed fully.

Anyway, we agree that in cases where there is reason to worry, the more evidence pointing to a cause for worry means more worrying, generally speaking. That is not what theism is about, though, or human nature. Still, people can convince themselves that they don't have a tumor even in the face of overwhelming evidence. That, or they don't worry about it because they're at peace with dying, or any number of other reasons. The problem is your connecting of this idea and why people sin.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

The fact that they say they have 100% percent certainty in their belief, as evidenced here. That and it's part of being a theist in general. It's not something people generally take lightly, but something that is a huge part of their life to be believed fully.

You say you are certain that Thiests are certain because they said so in a poll. I say actions speak louder than words. What do you say?

 

[Heneni]

You say you are certain that Thiests are certain because they said so in a poll. I say actions speak louder than words. What do you say?

Im a 100% certain that god exists. Im not 100% certain what god requires from me, but the more i get to know him, the less fuzzy things become and the less i sin. Because sin is acting contrary to what god wants me to be and do. But the more i get to know him, the less i keep on sinning.

1 John3:6

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

 

[Magic Man]

You say you are certain that Thiests are certain because they said so in a poll. I say actions speak louder than words. What do you say?

I say actions speak louder than words, too. You're just misinterpreting the actions.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Elaborate please. I say actions speak louder than words. Claims to certainty of absolute accountability should be backed up by actions (plethora of good and not a jot of sin). Thiests can't back them up. So their claim to certainty is false. And your claim that they are certain is, too, by inference.

 

[YmirGF]

Assalamualaikum.

Nano-nanoo, to you too, Tariq.

If you knew there was snake in a hole, would you ever put your hand into that hole? Never, right? If you were 100% certain that a poisonous snake resided in that hole and it would strike the moment you put your hand in there, would you ever put your hand into the hole. If all the people in the world came together and told you and tried to convince you to put your hand into the hole you would not have done it.

Hmmm, I probably would not, but you never know. Some days I do tend to push the envelope pretty hard. There is the minute chance I could grab the snake by the head without getting bitten.

But if you were 100% certain that there was nothing to gain from and only loss of life if you put your hand into that hole you would never do it. Ever.

As Willamena pointed out, if it was for Love or to save a loved one, I may very well put my hand where it should not go. There is more to life than saving ones sorry butt all the time, ya know.

In the same way the fact that we, Thiests, commit sin despite our belief in God and in the Day of Judgement proves that although we believe in both in principle our certainity in our belief is less and far less that 100%.

That is the philosophy of sin. That is why we sin. It is simple logic and I hope you understand it.

I understand perfectly what you are saying. Frankly, this kind of simplistic logic should be understandable to any person who can tie their shoe-laces without supervision.

To some, that is the so-called "correct" opinion and yet it remains a fairly narrow filter through which to view personal reality. I suppose it would appeal to certain masochistic personality types but for the life of me I cannot fathom why people have difficulty with being human. The very beauty of human life resides in the fact that we are far from perfect, whatever "perfect" is, precisely.

The remedy ... well I will get to that remedy after everyone understands the above.

No doubt it will probably be a strict observance of some imaginary "rule of god".

Ponder this, Tariq. I do not believe in sin, period. The concept itself has no meaning for me in any way, shape or form. I do not accept the version of god rendered in the various Abrahamic faiths, however I believe in the god I see all around me (and I mean that in more ways than one). Now, try to fathom this next part as it is the kicker -- as I do not believe in sin, I am without sin. It is impossible for me to sin regardless of how others perceive my actions. To me, there is no sin. There is only experience. You may not be able to appreciate how liberating it is to abandon the concept of sin itself.

As for Judgment day, well, the day the individual understands that "god" is deep within themselves, always has been and always will be, one understands immediately, that their ignorance was always forgiveable. To my demented view, it isn't possible to tick "god" off as he/she/it understands us better than we understand ourself. If only we were as forgiving of ourselves as he/she/it is of us, I am confident saying that the world would be a better place.

Good luck with your sin and your guilt. I hope they serve you well.

 

[blackout]

Ponder this, Tariq. I do not believe in sin, period. The concept itself has no meaning for me in any way, shape or form. I do not accept the version of god rendered in the various Abrahamic faiths, however I believe in the god I see all around me (and I mean that in more ways than one). Now, try to fathom this next part as it is the kicker -- as I do not believe in sin, I am without sin. It is impossible for me to sin regardless of how others perceive my actions. To me, there is no sin. There is only experience. You may not be able to appreciate how liberating it is to abandon the concept of sin itself.

As for Judgment day, well, the day the individual understands that "god" is deep within themselves, always has been and always will be, one understands immediately, that their ignorance was always forgiveable. To my demented view, it isn't possible to tick "god" off as he/she/it understands us better than we understand ourself. If only we were as forgiving of ourselves as he/she/it is of us, I am confident saying that the world would be a better place.

Good luck with your sin and your guilt. I hope they serve you well.

Excellent excellent excellent. :bow:
If your view is demented, mine is equally so.

 

[Magic Man]

Elaborate please. I say actions speak louder than words. Claims to certainty of absolute accountability should be backed up by actions (plethora of good and not a jot of sin). Thiests can't back them up. So their claim to certainty is false. And your claim that they are certain is, too, by inference.

I already agreed that actions speak louder than words. I also said that you misinterpret the actions. That means that the actions you see speaking to the fact that the people aren't certain in their belief are really just indications that there is more to them than that belief, even though they are 100% certain in that belief.

For one thing, something you consider a sin is not necessarily considered so by others. Some people think it's a sin to have homosexual relations, others, while still believing in God, don't think it's a sin. So, by your standards, they are sinning, but not by theirs. That doesn't mean they don't believe in God 100%. It just means they believe in a different God than you do.

Now, aside from that, even if hey believe in the same exact God that you do, the action of sinning does not equal them not believing 100%. It just means there was something more to it. Basically you're trying to say that if people knew for sure that they would be punished in Hell for certain things, they wouldn't do them. That's false. People are very short-sighted. When they really want something, they can tune out everything else. The fact that they do something doesn't mean they aren't sure they will be punished in Hell for it. It just means that maybe something else distracted them from that thought for a while.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

I already agreed that actions speak louder than words. I also said that you misinterpret the actions. That means that the actions you see speaking to the fact that the people aren't certain in their belief are really just indications that there is more to them than that belief, even though they are 100% certain in that belief.

What? If a Thiest believes God is the most important thing in his/her life and seeking God's pleasure is his/her objective and still the Thiest sins then something in the former part of this sentence suffers from lack of certainty. The very fact that a Thiest claiming 100% certainty in accountability simulataneously give a higher priority to some other feeling shows the lack of substance in the claim.

For one thing, something you consider a sin is not necessarily considered so by others. Some people think it's a sin to have homosexual relations, others, while still believing in God, don't think it's a sin. So, by your standards, they are sinning, but not by theirs. That doesn't mean they don't believe in God 100%. It just means they believe in a different God than you do.

And that has nothing to do with the topic. Forget about the differences. All I am saying is that if A believes 100% that he/she will be held accountable for a sin and still A commits that sin means A is not 100% certain and it is wrong of A or anyone else to think that he/she is 100% certain. By bringing in the differences in religions you are not furthering your argument.

Now, aside from that, even if hey believe in the same exact God that you do, the action of sinning does not equal them not believing 100%. It just means there was something more to it. Basically you're trying to say that if people knew for sure that they would be punished in Hell for certain things, they wouldn't do them. That's false. People are very short-sighted. When they really want something, they can tune out everything else. The fact that they do something doesn't mean they aren't sure they will be punished in Hell for it. It just means that maybe something else distracted them from that thought for a while.

If saving yourself from Hell is not your top priority and earning God's pleasure is not your top priority at any time and SIMULTANEOUSLY you claim that earning God's pleasure is your top priority then your certainty in the latter is not there.

To be 100% certain that a camera is watching you and to be 100% certain that the camera knows all your actions and still you steal, cheat, lie, etc. ... these two can not happen together.

 

[Magic Man]

What? If a Thiest believes God is the most important thing in his/her life and seeking God's pleasure is his/her objective and still the Thiest sins then something in the former part of this sentence suffers from lack of certainty. The very fact that a Thiest claiming 100% certainty in accountability simulataneously give a higher priority to some other feeling shows the lack of substance in the claim.

No, it doesn't. People have different priorities at different times. For one, maybe seeking God's pleasure includes doing certain things that you consider "sins". For another, a lot of people who believe in God don't feel that God wants them to constantly seek his pleasure. Many theists feel that God just wants them to live their lives and be happy. People who do believe in eternal punishment for sins only commit those sins due to extenuating circumstances. Most people who commit sins that would cause them to be eternally punished according to your standards don't believe they will be punished because their actions aren't "sins".

And that has nothing to do with the topic. Forget about the differences. All I am saying is that if A believes 100% that he/she will be held accountable for a sin and still A commits that sin means A is not 100% certain and it is wrong of A or anyone else to think that he/she is 100% certain. By bringing in the differences in religions you are not furthering your argument.

This is why we've gone over this already. The point is that you think certain things are sins and will cause people to be punished eternally, and assume that everyone who believes in God must feel the same way about those actions. I'm trying to tell you that's not the case. The one possibility to prove this argument wrong is that people who commit the sins you think will cause them eternal damnation don't see them as sins at all. The other possibility is that, even if they see them that way, whatever the sin is, is more important than anything else when they commit it.

If saving yourself from Hell is not your top priority and earning God's pleasure is not your top priority at any time and SIMULTANEOUSLY you claim that earning God's pleasure is your top priority then your certainty in the latter is not there.

To be 100% certain that a camera is watching you and to be 100% certain that the camera knows all your actions and still you steal, cheat, lie, etc. ... these two can not happen together.

The problem is that this is a complete strawman. People who kill either have a good reason, like saving their own or someone else's life, or they forget about the punishment due to anger or other strong feelings, or they don't think they'll be punished for it, or they think they deserve punishment and crave it. (There are many other, more detailed reasons, but these are the major ones)

Some people do know there are cameras watching them while they steal, cheat, lie, etc. and yet they do it anyway. I'm not sure how many times I have to say this, but people do this for many reasons.

The bottom line is that people make mistakes. People forget things. People look at things differently.

Some people don't believe in God, so they are just ruled out.

Some people believe in a God that doesn't punish people in Hell at all, so they are ruled out.

Some people believe in a God that punishes people for some things, but has a different list of those things than your God does. So, they are sure of God and His punishment, just not for the things they are doing (even though you believe they will be punished for those things). This rules them out of your OP, too.

Some people believe in your God and His punishment for all the same things you believe he punishes, but they commit these sins because of extenuating circumstances. They commit them because their rage or jealousy or love or just general short-sightedness overrides their knowledge of future punishment. This is the group you're referring to, but this is why they commit those sins, not because they're not sure about God's or Hell's existence.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Some people don't believe in God, so they are just ruled out.

Yes, finally. Rule them out. The OP does not speak of them.

Some people believe in a God that doesn't punish people in Hell at all, so they are ruled out.

Out of this thread. OUT.

Some people believe in a God that punishes people for some things, but has a different list of those things than your God does. So, they are sure of God and His punishment, just not for the things they are doing (even though you believe they will be punished for those things). This rules them out of your OP, too.

YES YES YES. You are finally getting it. My OP does not refer to any one of the previous. So please do not bring them up again. Because I am not debating them at all. Thank you.

Some people believe in your God and His punishment for all the same things you believe he punishes, but they commit these sins because of extenuating circumstances. They commit them because their rage or jealousy or love or just general short-sightedness overrides their knowledge of future punishment. This is the group you're referring to, but this is why they commit those sins, not because they're not sure about God's or Hell's existence.

And here, finally, is where we disagree. The core of our disagreement.

If God was their top priority then to say "priorities change in extraordinary circumstances" means that God is not always their top priority. And the only reason they could dare to reduce God's priority was if they were not truly certain of absolute accountability like they are certain that if they don't lie they won't get away with it.

If you are certain of absolute accountability then you would never have your boss be your God. You would never lie to your boss to hide your mistakes. Even if you were certain your boss would never find out you would never lie to him. To your friend. To anyone actually. Because you are sure that you might get out of a tight spot for now but you will definitely get into a tighter spot with your Ultimate Boss, God. That sort of feeling only consumes you if you are certain of absolute accountability ... as certain as you are of the relatively smaller troubles you will get into by telling the truth.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Assalamualaikum.

If you knew there was snake in a hole, would you ever put your hand into that hole? Never, right? If you were 100% certain that a poisonous snake resided in that hole and it would strike the moment you put your hand in there, would you ever put your hand into the hole. If all the people in the world came together and told you and tried to convince you to put your hand into the hole you would not have done it.

If you were only 10% certain you probably would have done it. If you were 50% certain it would take more convincing but eventually you would have succumbed. If you were 90% certain it would really take something extraordinary for you to do it. But if you were 100% certain that there was nothing to gain from and only loss of life if you put your hand into that hole you would never do it. Ever.

I can't recall the last time I stuck my hand into any hole in the ground, even one I was certain didn't have any snakes in it.

Whether I'd put my hand in one would depend on what I thought to gain from it. If a baby were in the hole in need of rescue, I'd put my hand in even with a 100% certainty of being bitten. If there's nothing in there but dirt, I probably wouldn't put my hand in even if I was sure it didn't contain any snakes.

 

[Magic Man]

YES YES YES. You are finally getting it. My OP does not refer to any one of the previous. So please do not bring them up again. Because I am not debating them at all. Thank you.

Oh, I've already gotten it. I was narrowing it down for your sake. Some of your comments have generalized to include the groups I just ruled out. I wanted it to be clear what exactly was at issue here.

And here, finally, is where we disagree. The core of our disagreement.

If God was their top priority then to say "priorities change in extraordinary circumstances" means that God is not always their top priority. And the only reason they could dare to reduce God's priority was if they were not truly certain of absolute accountability like they are certain that if they don't lie they won't get away with it.

You were doing well until you somehow jumped to "the only reason they could dare to reduce God's priority was if they were not truly certain...". That is not the only reason. The main reason is that something else is more important at a certain time. You might not be able to comprehend how someone could lower God's importance at any time, but I'm trying to explain how it happens. People are short-sighted. Desire overrides many things. God is still their ultimate priority, but for a very brief period of time, something blinds them to that priority.

If you are certain of absolute accountability then you would never have your boss be your God. You would never lie to your boss to hide your mistakes. Even if you were certain your boss would never find out you would never lie to him. To your friend. To anyone actually. Because you are sure that you might get out of a tight spot for now but you will definitely get into a tighter spot with your Ultimate Boss, God. That sort of feeling only consumes you if you are certain of absolute accountability ... as certain as you are of the relatively smaller troubles you will get into by telling the truth.

Unless you figure that by not lying to your boss, you're creating a worse situation. Unless you think that by lying to your boss, you're doing a worse thing than by not lying to him. Again, there are many variables here that you're not taking into account. The problem is that most situations of people sinning are not cut-and-dry, black-and-white. There is much more involved, and you are not taking any of that into account in your conclusion.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Unless you figure that by not lying to your boss, you're creating a worse situation. Unless you think that by lying to your boss, you're doing a worse thing than by not lying to him. Again, there are many variables here that you're not taking into account. The problem is that most situations of people sinning are not cut-and-dry, black-and-white. There is much more involved, and you are not taking any of that into account in your conclusion.

But therein lies the contradiction MBall. Thiests claim that God is most important in their lives. Yet that is not the case (as you admit) at some points in time. Therefore, there claim of 100% belief in God is not true and either they are lying and know it or are not certain and don't even know it.

Yet if their certainty in God was 100% and in their view (as they claim) God was really their top priority then nothing could seduce them. The fact that belief in God is not as obvious as the fact that I have hands lends itself (the belief) to vulnerability.

 

[Magic Man]

But therein lies the contradiction MBall. Thiests claim that God is most important in their lives. Yet that is not the case (as you admit) at some points in time. Therefore, there claim of 100% belief in God is not true and either they are lying and know it or are not certain and don't even know it.

How many times do we have to go over this? God is the most important thing in their lives. Everyone makes mistakes. That doesn't mean that they don't believe fully. You're making a huge leap to get to your last sentence, a leap not supported by logic. They still believe 100% in God, they just mess up once in a while.

Yet if their certainty in God was 100% and in their view (as they claim) God was really their top priority then nothing could seduce them. The fact that belief in God is not as obvious as the fact that I have hands lends itself (the belief) to vulnerability.

That is incorrect. God can be their top priority and they can make mistakes. That's the way life goes.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

How many times do we have to go over this? God is the most important thing in their lives. Everyone makes mistakes. That doesn't mean that they don't believe fully. You're making a huge leap to get to your last sentence, a leap not supported by logic. They still believe 100% in God, they just mess up once in a while.

That is incorrect. God can be their top priority and they can make mistakes. That's the way life goes.

What are you talking about? People make mistakes out of ignorance. No one makes mistakes knowing full well the situation at hand. There is no leap. I would intentionally choose fire knowing full well it is fire? I might if there is a degree of uncertainty involved. I might take a risk, lets say. But if there is no risk and fire is a surety I would never make the mistake of jumping into it. Where is the logical leap here?

 

[Magic Man]

What are you talking about? People make mistakes out of ignorance. No one makes mistakes knowing full well the situation at hand. There is no leap. I would intentionally choose fire knowing full well it is fire? I might if there is a degree of uncertainty involved. I might take a risk, lets say. But if there is no risk and fire is a surety I would never make the mistake of jumping into it. Where is the logical leap here?

OK, now we're really just going around in circles. It's pretty simple. People make mistakes. Things happen. It means nothing about their beliefs. There are a lot of factors, you're not taking into account, and apparently you're completely opposed to doing so. There is nothing logical about your leap. Your premise is incorrect for all of the reasons I've already explained more than once. It's just too bad you won't listen. I've tried, but I'm now done.

 

[opuntia]

Theists believe because they have been given the idea that a supreme being exists. The Holy Qur-an and the Holy Bible give us that assumption, but beyond that the prophets had what is called the more sure word of prophecy. The prophets had no difficulties the mere believer has because the mere believer has no other witness than the words found in scriptures. The prophets had visions and visitations from angels or holy beings capable of rendering a divine witness to them. Here is the division between today's believing but unsteady adherent and the prophets.

On sin, we sin because we know not the whole law. Paul, an apostle of the New Testament, said that "sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Romans 5:13; KJV). Whenever a person is convicted in a court of law it is because that person has violated a law. In the same way, whenever we sin it is because we have violated a divine law. John, another apostle, said, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4). Does not the Holy Qur-an say that we sin? To be able to avoid sin altogether means achieving a condition that will put us on a higher plane than what we find in this world. Here we will sin because we are not perfect. To achieve perfection is something that appears possible in the next life or world. So do not worry overmuch if you sin, does it not say that Allah is most merciful and understanding of our human condition? I am sure He will be most kind if we just try our best.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

There is a preliminary concept to be understood. If one can understand that then the answer becomes quite obvious really.

There are several levels of certainty according to the Quran. The first is "Ilm-ul-Yaqeen" (Certainty through knowledge) that one can gain. For example, if one sees smoke issuing from a house one would assume that there is fire burning inside. However, this level of certainty is not the same as "Ain-ul-Yaqeen" (Certainty through sight). And this may be illustrated with the example of one who sees the fire with their own eyes. And surely the certainty attained through sight is more than that attained through a logical conclusion. Seeing is believing is the popular saying? But the certainty of one who has seen fire cannot match the certainty of that individual who has put his hand in its vicinity and felt the heat burn his hands. That is the highest stage of certainty that is termed "Haq-ul-Yaqeen" (Certainty through experience (not sure of translation)). So these are the three stages of certainty according to the Quran.

If the above is clear then let it also be clear that no sane person would drink a glass of poison if he knew it to be what it was. If there was no doubt that one was standing on the edge of a cliff no doubt he would run away to safety. It is only when doubt arises in a matter that one is enticed to take risks and be bold. But one who is sure that a poisonous snake resides in a den would not approach it. These are simple matters of life that we witness and experience daily.

It is one thing to believe in good faith. But it is completely another thing to experience the truth of that belief for yourself. Theory is, in the final analysis, just theory is not the same as facts. Theories always give way to doubts. Theories might get you to the point of Ilm-ul-Yaqeen. And that too if you are really smart (and being smart has several other dangers that might hinder the attainment of Ilm-ul-Yaqeen that I will not discuss here). So is the case with religion. The truth is out there but it is clouded and takes a lot of logical thinking to get to that truth (and that too if there is a guidance map or book because on its own no brain is known to have come to all the correct religious conclusions). And, in the same way, many of us believe many a things to be sin. But while we may have Eman (belief) we do not possess Yaqeen (certainty). For if we were certain of the harm of sin we would never approach it. But within our hearts and subconscious a doubt lingers and that doubt argues that the truths spoken in books might be false and that the theories might be illogical. However, if we were to receive positive evidence and signs to prove to our own hearts that God does, indeed, exist and that we will be held accountable for all our actions (and if this awareness (ma'arifat) reached the level of Haq-ul-Yaqeen) then no sane person would still commit a sin. And the logic as has been presented is irrefutable. Another evidence is when a comparison is made of the crimes committed in the developed world (where security is quite impeccable) compared to that committed in the developing world (where one can always hope to get away with almost anything). The greater the certainty we have of being accountable for our actions the less likely we are to commit wrong.

So the Islamic solution to be free from sin is through the attainment of the highest level of certainty. Theory can get you so far. And seeing someone who is a living miracle can also get you so far. But there is nothing like experiencing the miracles and signs of God for yourself. That is "Haq-ul-Yaqeen" and I hope for myself and for my friends that we could reach that status someday. For once God blesses someone with that status of certainty then it creates a motivating factor (remember that) for one to strive and leap in the cause of God. One path to attaining that status is prayers because it is with prayers that one can receive positive evidence of God's existence. This was previously explained. The trials and tribulations we go through in this life ... a reward for making it successfully is signs from God that enable us through greater conviction to make further efforts by increasing our certainty in His existence. If such positive proofs and signs are not visible in your life then your freedom from sin is obviously impossible. The part in CAPITALS of the translation of the first few verses of the Holy Qura'an is quite unorthodox but can any honest person knowing Arabic deny it as a valid translation of verses 2:3 to 2:5 near the very beginning of the Qura'an:

"This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous, for those who believe in the unseen and observe Prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them; and who believe in that which has been revealed to thee, and that which was revealed before thee, and AFTER ALL THIS EFFORT, FINALLY, THEY HAVE CONVICTION AND CERTAINTY (WA BILAKHIRAT-E-HUM-YOUQINOON). It is they who follow the guidance of their Lord and it is they who shall prosper."