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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I believe there is only one correct interpretation.

As do the other 44999 varyingly different sects and denominations of Christians of course, the fact remains this amount of variation does not suggest a reliable source, but rather one that is open to subjective interpretation.

I don't believe I evaluate science by the nonsense that someone without scientific training would utter.

I am afraid you do, since you defended the hokum of astrology, against known scientific facts and evidence from astronomers at NASA.

Those who study the Bible know it best and the Holy Spirit also helps.

Knowing the bible doesn't mean it is not open to subjective interpretation, and the holy spirit is an entirely subjective belief, I've seen no objective evidence for it, only anecdotal claims.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I believe millions of people can be wrong about some things but it is inconceivable that they can be wrong about their own experiences.
Then you do not understand human nature. It is quite easy for people to be wrong about their own experiences. In fact human memory is a very flawed thing to rely on.
I believe there is only one correct interpretation. I don't believe I evaluate science by the nonsense that someone without scientific training would utter. Those who study the Bible know it best and the Holy Spirit also helps.
This makes no sense. You appear to be the one without a scientific education. So you are dissing yourself here? And you need to provide evidence that there is such a thing as a "Holy Spirit" And yes, those who study the Bible often do know it best. Sadly, that is usually not Christians.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Then you do not understand human nature. It is quite easy for people to be wrong about their own experiences. In fact human memory is a very flawed thing to rely on.

This makes no sense. You appear to be the one without a scientific education. So you are dissing yourself here? And you need to provide evidence that there is such a thing as a "Holy Spirit" And yes, those who study the Bible often do know it best. Sadly, that is usually not Christians.
He used an argumentum ad populum fallacy to insist the experience was valid, when this was pointed out he the resorted to an argument from personal incredulity fallacy. So he's consistent I will give him that, but being consistently irrational is not at all compelling.
 
I believe millions of people can be wrong about some things but it is inconceivable that they can be wrong about their own experiences.
This story reminds me of some people and the conversations on here for some reason.

“Then a large crowd of the Jews learned he was there. They came not only because of Jesus but also to see Lazarus, the one he had raised from the dead. But the chief priests had decided to kill Lazarus also, because he was the reason many of the Jews were deserting them and believing in Jesus.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:9-11‬ ‭CSB‬‬
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
This story reminds me of some people and the conversations on here for some reason.

“Then a large crowd of the Jews learned he was there. They came not only because of Jesus but also to see Lazarus, the one he had raised from the dead. But the chief priests had decided to kill Lazarus also, because he was the reason many of the Jews were deserting them and believing in Jesus.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:9-11‬ ‭CSB
‬‬

;) Just a hearsay story, an important fact to bear in mind see.
 
;) Just a hearsay story, an important fact to bear in mind see.
I just want proof of God… He shows up…Prove it…Heals the sick, raises the dead, leaves witnesses for thousands of years after.
We don’t believe you, you said a fallacy and we don’t like apologists.
What proof you looking for? Don’t really want proof, just want to live however I want and feel good about it.
 
What you're describing is the path of strict justice; but, there's also the path of mercy.
God Is Just and has to punish sin, it’s His character.
“The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:36‬ ‭CSB‬‬

God is also Merciful and saved us by providing salvation Himself.

“But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love for mankind appeared, he saved us  —not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy  — through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. He poured out his Spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior so that, having been justified by his grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life. This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:4-8‬ ‭CSB‬‬
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Sheldon said:
;) Just a hearsay story, an important fact to bear in mind see.
I just want proof of God… He shows up…Prove it…Heals the sick, raises the dead, leaves witnesses for thousands of years after. We don’t believe you, you said a fallacy and we don’t like apologists. What proof you looking for? Don’t really want proof, just want to live however I want and feel good about it.

I never mentioned proof, merely pointed out that the story you posted is hearsay. How it makes anyone feel has no relevance to that fact.
 
Genesis 4:7; It's in God's character to forgive as well.
Yes that’s one aspect of God’s Character and I’m glad. The punishment for sin against God is death, but He died in our place.
His justice is satisfied and so is His mercy, love and forgiveness.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
;) Just a hearsay story, an important fact to bear in mind see.

Yes, that is an important fact to bear in mind. I think it's also an important fact to bear in mind that the stories in the Bible were likely copied from the pagan religions prevalent during biblical times, particularly Greek mythology. I say that because the stories about Jesus' life in the Bible parallel the mythological stories told about Attis, the Greek god of vegetation (1250 BCE). The stories of Attis include him being born of a virgin; he was crucified; he was considered a savior who died to save humanity; he descended into the underworld after he died; and he was resurrected from the dead after three days (Attis: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, Crucified and Resurrected after Three Days). Not only do the stories of Jesus' life parallel the stories about the Greek god, Attis, but they also parallel a few of the stories told of other Christ-like figures from various pagan religions (10 Christ-Like Figures that Predate Jesus).
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I just want proof of God… He shows up…Prove it…Heals the sick, raises the dead, leaves witnesses for thousands of years after.
We don’t believe you, you said a fallacy and we don’t like apologists.
What proof you looking for? Don’t really want proof, just want to live however I want and feel good about it.
But he does not do that. When investigated the claims of "cures by God" appear to go away. They occur at no larger rate than secular cures.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
There is still the judgement at the end of the age.
Death entered because of sin, everyone dies and then the judgement.
Yes, but the point is that God does not always require death as the punishment of sin. If that were so, God would not have saved Cain. Also Adam and Eve would not have had children.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There's multiple ways to acheive atonement.

Have you see this from Jon Stewart? : "Yom Kippur. Greatest Jewish holiday ever. The Jewish day of attonement. You don't ear for one day, all your sins for the year are wiped clean. Beat that with your little "Lent." What is Lent? Forty days of absolution. Forty days to one day. Even in sin you're paying retail."

I found that Scripture interprets Scripture

When I was born again, I understood that the Holy Spirit interprets scripture: "no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."

God instituted the Feasts and I see Jesus Christ fulfilling those

Feasts aren't fulfilled. Nor are doorways, nor radiators, nor ice cream cones. Promises, contracts, obligations, and orders are fulfilled. People can feel fulfilled. But not feasts. This is apologist verbal sleight-of-hand trying to justify dropping so much of the Old Testament, which they apparently couldn't sell to the Gentiles: the laws had been fulfilled. Same category error. You can't fulfill a law. You can write one, enforce one, judge one for constitutionality, etc., but you can't fulfill one, nor drink one, nor paint one orange.

just want to live however I want and feel good about it.

So do you, hopefully. Your plight is even more dismal if this is not the way you want to live and feel good about it. But I guess that only goes for you. You need them to be like you. Good luck with that. Your witness is not appealing. Your religion may have saved you from yourself, but who else wants to follow that path when they already have control over their happy lives? What do you think you have to offer about sexual relations to grown adults who have healthy sexual lives that don't conform to your preferences, the people you describe in terms of immorality. What would somebody who gets their morality form a book have to say to those who have gotten it from their consciences?

For some reason, you feel qualified to judge and demean the moral status of decent people who do what they want to do such as raise families, obey the law, and make their communities better places. It is a very ugly trait to demean people like that for failing to obey your religious standards and demands. What respect do you suppose that they should hold for a religion that attempts to marginal and demonize its detractors? This is what I see Christians writing to the Freedom From Religion Foundation website:
  • Whether you are afraid of burning in hell or not, You will, unless you repent and trust Jesus Christ to save you from it.. please do. You have every right to believe whatever you want, but shaking your fist at a sovereign God, is just plain stupid. Someday you WILL acknowledge and confess that JesusChrist is Lord!! Doing it from hell will be too late to save you. — Ivan
  • Your organization is nothing but a hategroup against Christians. This is because you hate the God that created you. All of you in your organization have your own twisted reasons why you want to attack Christians but it boils down to rebellion against God. One day you all will stand before God and give an account for your lives. I pray that you will see the wrong in what you are doing. — Dwight
  • Lucifer is on his throne laughing, Laughing!!! He has finally captured Lillith. She now lays at his clawed malformed hoofs. Collared and chained, Beautiful and Sexy,,, Hot,,,, Red hot!!! ready to make demons!! Powerful demons, that can strip the wings from angels and become,,, flying demons!!! And now!! the war, will continue!!! You will have plenty living human beings for the religious to conduct his animal selfishness for war upon the world. — Miller
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
What is the Day of Atonement then?

“The Lord spoke to Moses after the death of two of Aaron’s sons when they approached the presence of the Lord and died. The Lord said to Moses, “Tell your brother Aaron that he may not come whenever he wants into the holy place behind the curtain in front of the mercy seat on the ark or else he will die, because I appear in the cloud above the mercy seat. “Aaron is to enter the most holy place in this way: with a young bull for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. He is to wear a holy linen tunic, and linen undergarments are to be on his body. He is to tie a linen sash around him and wrap his head with a linen turban. These are holy garments; he must bathe his body with water before he wears them. He is to take from the Israelite community two male goats for a sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering. “Aaron will present the bull for his sin offering and make atonement for himself and his household. Next he will take the two goats and place them before the Lord at the entrance to the tent of meeting. After Aaron casts lots for the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other for an uninhabitable place, he is to present the goat chosen by lot for the Lord and sacrifice it as a sin offering. But the goat chosen by lot for an uninhabitable place is to be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement with it by sending it into the wilderness for an uninhabitable place. “When Aaron presents the bull for his sin offering and makes atonement for himself and his household, he will slaughter the bull for his sin offering. Then he is to take a firepan full of blazing coals from the altar before the Lord and two handfuls of finely ground fragrant incense, and bring them inside the curtain. He is to put the incense on the fire before the Lord, so that the cloud of incense covers the mercy seat that is over the testimony, or else he will die. He is to take some of the bull’s blood and sprinkle it with his finger against the east side of the mercy seat; then he will sprinkle some of the blood with his finger before the mercy seat seven times. “When he slaughters the male goat for the people’s sin offering and brings its blood inside the curtain, he will do the same with its blood as he did with the bull’s blood: He is to sprinkle it against the mercy seat and in front of it. He will make atonement for the most holy place in this way for all their sins because of the Israelites’ impurities and rebellious acts. He will do the same for the tent of meeting that remains among them, because it is surrounded by their impurities. No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the most holy place until he leaves after he has made atonement for himself, his household, and the whole assembly of Israel. Then he will go out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it. He is to take some of the bull’s blood and some of the goat’s blood and put it on the horns on all sides of the altar. He is to sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse and set it apart from the Israelites’ impurities. “When he has finished making atonement for the most holy place, the tent of meeting, and the altar, he is to present the live male goat. Aaron will lay both his hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the Israelites’ iniquities and rebellious acts — all their sins. He is to put them on the goat’s head and send it away into the wilderness by the man appointed for the task. The goat will carry all their iniquities into a desolate land, and the man will release it there. “Then Aaron is to enter the tent of meeting, take off the linen garments he wore when he entered the most holy place, and leave them there. He will bathe his body with water in a holy place and put on his clothes. Then he must go out and sacrifice his burnt offering and the people’s burnt offering; he will make atonement for himself and for the people. He is to burn the fat of the sin offering on the altar. The man who released the goat for an uninhabitable place is to wash his clothes and bathe his body with water; afterward he may reenter the camp. The bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought into the most holy place to make atonement, must be brought outside the camp and their hide, flesh, and waste burned. The one who burns them is to wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may reenter the camp. “This is to be a permanent statute for you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month you are to practice self-denial and do no work, both the native and the alien who resides among you. Atonement will be made for you on this day to cleanse you, and you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord. It is a Sabbath of complete rest for you, and you must practice self-denial; it is a permanent statute. The priest who is anointed and ordained to serve as high priest in place of his father will make atonement. He will put on the linen garments, the holy garments, and make atonement for the most holy place. He will make atonement for the tent of meeting and the altar and will make atonement for the priests and all the people of the assembly. This is to be a permanent statute for you, to make atonement for the Israelites once a year because of all their sins.” And all this was done as the Lord commanded Moses.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭16:1-34‬ ‭CSB‬‬

Then if you read Hebrews this is explained how Jesus Christ fulfilled this Feast and is the once and for all sacrifice for sin and the High Priest that entered the Most Holy Place in Heaven and presented His own blood at the Heavenly altar for us once and for all.

“Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come, and not the reality itself of those things, it can never perfect the worshipers by the same sacrifices they continually offer year after year. Otherwise, wouldn’t they have stopped being offered, since the worshipers, purified once and for all, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? But in the sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year after year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, as he was coming into the world, he said: You did not desire sacrifice and offering, but you prepared a body for me. You did not delight in whole burnt offerings and sin offerings. Then I said, “See — it is written about me in the scroll — I have come to do your will, God.” After he says above, You did not desire or delight in sacrifices and offerings, whole burnt offerings and sin offerings (which are offered according to the law), he then says, See, I have come to do your will. He takes away the first to establish the second. By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time. Every priest stands day after day ministering and offering the same sacrifices time after time, which can never take away sins. But this man, after offering one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God. He is now waiting until his enemies are made his footstool. For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are sanctified. The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. For after he says: This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, the Lord says, I will put my laws on their hearts and write them on their minds, and I will never again remember their sins and their lawless acts. Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have boldness to enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus  —  he has inaugurated for us a new and living way through the curtain (that is, through his flesh) —  and since we have a great high priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water. Let us hold on to the confession of our hope without wavering, since he who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to provoke love and good works, not neglecting to gather together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the day approaching. For if we deliberately go on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. Anyone who disregarded the law of Moses died without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, who has regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know the one who has said, Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, and again, The Lord will judge his people. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Remember the earlier days when, after you had been enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings. Sometimes you were publicly exposed to taunts and afflictions, and at other times you were companions of those who were treated that way. For you sympathized with the prisoners and accepted with joy the confiscation of your possessions, because you know that you yourselves have a better and enduring possession. So don’t throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you need endurance, so that after you have done God’s will, you may receive what was promised. For yet in a very little while, the Coming One will come and not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith; and if he draws back, I have no pleasure in him. But we are not those who draw back and are destroyed, but those who have faith and are saved.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:1-39‬ ‭CSB‬‬


Yes we get it. Yahweh couldn't get anything done without blood. Passover, Yom Kippur. Then the NT creates a one-time ultimate magic blood sacrifice that lasts forever. It's ridiculous archaic mythology where everything needs a sacrifice. Ridiculous and barbaric.
 
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