Theological terrorists

[BilliardsBall]

I have been answering that in the previous posts. Firstly, from the perspective of experience. Experience illuminates everything. Without experience, all we have is speculations and suppositions based upon concepts and ideas, which is a matter of the head trying to figure out something it has no experience with. That of course, in all cases, in all matters, religious or otherwise, ends up typically quite far off the mark.

As an illustration of that, I always like to share that cartoon someone came up with that to me spot-on nails that difference. I believe I may have shared this with you before, but I'll share it again here to illustrate my first point in how we are able to discern meaning from scripture:
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The second way we can know, if we lack personal experience with something, is with reason and logic. Though not as illuminating as experience, it certainly does give us clues or point us in the right direction of understanding.

I've given several examples in the previous post how hell is not something that can be reconciled logically with a God of Infinite Love. If we are to read those passages as, literal facts and not metaphoric language to point to some abstraction beyond a literal interpretation, we are confronted with irreconcilable contradictions.

"Weeping and gnashing of teeth", if understood literally, means the resurrected dead have teeth and eyes that water. Does that make logical sense to you? Why would they have teeth? Teeth are for chewing food in order to fill our stomachs with what we need in order to continue to live. In a place like hell where no one ever dies, why teeth? Why eyes that secrete fluid?

Compare that now with how Jesus answered that misguided, literalist imagination of the afterlife by the person who asked him about the wife of the brothers who died in succession while she was alive. "Whose wife is she in the afterlife," they naively asked him. Jesus' answer is telling, and directly addresses my pointing out the absurdity of teeth in hell. "They neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels of heaven".

That means, they don't have sex organs! What purpose would they serve? Likewise what purpose would teeth serve in hell? It's not logical. Jesus was saying, "Don't be a literalist!," to those who imagined they would be marrying and having sex in heaven. Don't think like that. Don't think literally, he was saying in essence to them.

The other example of a logical impossibility I gave was that existence of hell as a place. Where is it located? None of your answers can be reconciled with an infinite God of infinite Love. If hell is inside God, then God is in hell. If hell is outside God, then God is not infinite. There can be no "outside" of infinity. Infinity has no outsides, no boundaries. That is not logical.

So, firstly is experience, and secondly without experience to illuminate, logic. Hell as a literal place of torture, fits neither experience nor logic. Hell as a metaphor for suffering, fits both.

I hope this helps.

God is in Hell, as you quoted the scripture--there's no place we can go that God is not.

Hell is logical, we would praise Jesus if we saw Hitler in Heaven, knowing God's mercy, but also praise Him if we saw Hitler in Hell, knowing God's justice. What a person sows, they reap.

Hell in the Bible is down, Heaven is up--that is, God's Heaven is outside the visible universe, Hell is in the Earth's interior, known to be a source of heat and a place of many subterranean chambers.

I liked your cartoon very much, but Jesus didn't use love to interpret/reinterpret the scriptures as much as He was the author of the scriptures and made them sensible to lay people and Pharisees alike.

 

[Windwalker]

God is in Hell, as you quoted the scripture--there's no place we can go that God is not.

So then likewise hell is in God? In other words, in the heart of God, is hellfire? Hatred, tortue, death, disease, rebellion, murder, etc, are all part of the Divine nature? In other words, God creates hell from his own hate? Yes? That is what you are agreeing to.

Hell is logical, we would praise Jesus if we saw Hitler in Heaven, knowing God's mercy, but also praise Him if we saw Hitler in Hell, knowing God's justice. What a person sows, they reap.

You would praise God to see people being tortured in hell? Isn't that counter to what Jesus taught about how we are to love or enemies, not delight in their tortures? Wasn't the example that we should love them, because God loves them despite their errors, causing good to fall upon all, the just and unjust? Would you rather change that to say, "Hate your enemies, because God does too sending them to hell to be punished and tortured forever and ever". That's not the spirit of the message I hear behind Jesus' words.

Hell in the Bible is down, Heaven is up--that is, God's Heaven is outside the visible universe, Hell is in the Earth's interior, known to be a source of heat and a place of many subterranean chambers.

That's a fascinating belief. Literally up? So Jesus ascended up into the upper atmosphere, up past the moon, on his way out of the solar system? But honestly, "up" is completely releative to where you are on the globe, and at what time of day it is since its' constantly rotating. You see, literalism cause all sorts of problems here.

And you believe people literally go to the earth's molten core? Can't say I've ever heard anyone say that before. While it's creative and imaginative, I think you are missing the point altogether. You should spend some time examining the ramifications of this. For instance, if a volcano erupts, do people get to escape hell in a lava flow?

I liked your cartoon very much, but Jesus didn't use love to interpret/reinterpret the scriptures as much as He was the author of the scriptures and made them sensible to lay people and Pharisees alike.

Jesus was not the author of any of the books of the bible. Jesus never wrote anything down. The Spirit of God inspired different human authors to write their thoughts down, but Jesus didn't write anything. And furthermore, Jesus, the man born of Mary in Israel 2000 years ago, was not omniscient. If you are speaking of the Logos, that is the Spirit of God itself. That itself wrote nothing, but simply inspired others to write.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So then likewise hell is in God? In other words, in the heart of God, is hellfire? Hatred, tortue, death, disease, rebellion, murder, etc, are all part of the Divine nature? In other words, God creates hell from his own hate? Yes? That is what you are agreeing to.


You would praise God to see people being tortured in hell? Isn't that counter to what Jesus taught about how we are to love or enemies, not delight in their tortures? Wasn't the example that we should love them, because God loves them despite their errors, causing good to fall upon all, the just and unjust? Would you rather change that to say, "Hate your enemies, because God does too sending them to hell to be punished and tortured forever and ever". That's not the spirit of the message I hear behind Jesus' words.


That's a fascinating belief. Literally up? So Jesus ascended up into the upper atmosphere, up past the moon, on his way out of the solar system? But honestly, "up" is completely releative to where you are on the globe, and at what time of day it is since its' constantly rotating. You see, literalism cause all sorts of problems here.

And you believe people literally go to the earth's molten core? Can't say I've ever heard anyone say that before. While it's creative and imaginative, I think you are missing the point altogether. You should spend some time examining the ramifications of this. For instance, if a volcano erupts, do people get to escape hell in a lava flow?


Jesus was not the author of any of the books of the bible. Jesus never wrote anything down. The Spirit of God inspired different human authors to write their thoughts down, but Jesus didn't write anything. And furthermore, Jesus, the man born of Mary in Israel 2000 years ago, was not omniscient. If you are speaking of the Logos, that is the Spirit of God itself. That itself wrote nothing, but simply inspired others to write.

The Word of God must be our guide, for example, Luke 12:

4 “And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

Here Jesus describes people who have physically died and are in Hell. Even as metaphor, no one can take "kill the body" to mean "heart, mind, emotions" as you've suggested. Or how does God allow us to experience "mental suffering on Earth" after some people have KILLED us?

And yes, the Word of God also says Hell comes from God--not hate, but justly deserved wrath. That's literally what it says.

A volcano goes down into the Earth but not to the Earth's core. The Bible literally has people swallowed alive by the ground and trapped beneath, chasms and the pit are described.

All we know of Jesus and His teachings are in the Bible. You choose subjectively to take some literally and some as metaphor, often switching the two in their reality. Did Jesus literally die on a cross? Literally resurrect? Was He literally God? etc. and without these things you have heretical doctrine and are not a born again Christian, although I hope you are merely a lapsed born again Christian because I don't want you to go to a literal Hell IMHO. Please have the last word on this matter.

If you're open to it and want me to continue, I have literal answers for all the problems you've posed above, but you are merely being rhetorical to suggest that some of the Bible that most people (naturally) read as literal is metaphorical. I've asked you several times over time to tell me what magic you use to determine what is literal and what is metaphor, but obviously, you think the Bible is not God's Word to mankind and is utterly filled with contradictions. How can I believe God is love--something not found in most other faiths but in the Bible (1 John 4:8) as you suggest, when you are sure the Bible is a pack of lies and veiled half-truths?

You have New Age doctrines on love from a wishy washy God who does not care enough to tell us literal truth. All religions have Hell, a devil and judgment because God in His sovereignty lets us see truth. Please stop obscuring truth.

Thank you.

 

[Windwalker]

The Word of God must be our guide, for example, Luke 12:

4 “And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

Here Jesus describes people who have physically died and are in Hell. Even as metaphor, no one can take "kill the body" to mean "heart, mind, emotions" as you've suggested. Or how does God allow us to experience "mental suffering on Earth" after some people have KILLED us?

I'm not sure what you are reading there, but the "kill the body" reference was about not being afraid of being killed physically by some person or other, because physical death is nothing compared to the agony of separation from God. That fits quite well with everything I have said. The body is nothing, but the soul is more important. That's all he is saying. And the "power to cast you into hell", is again a metaphor for separation from God. There's nothing physical about that. "Don't fear physical death, but fear spiritual separation from God". That's what I'm reading there. It doesn't matter if that is here or in the afterlife. It's the same thing.

And yes, the Word of God also says Hell comes from God--not hate, but justly deserved wrath. That's literally what it says.

So when the Bible says, perfect Love casts out fear, that of course does not mean what it says, since hell, which is nothing but Fear, exists within God, according to you. Again, how do you reconcile this whole God's wrath and hellfire, with Jesus' injunction for us to love our enemies, because God does that? I can't quite see how those fit together. Love and hate, from the same God? "God is Hate", is not in the Bible anywhere that I've read.

A volcano goes down into the Earth but not to the Earth's core. The Bible literally has people swallowed alive by the ground and trapped beneath, chasms and the pit are described.

Oh, let's not be so literal shall we? By the way, how are eyeballs the secrete fluids and teeth that gnash, going to survive temperature like that in the earth's core? Have you ever seen what's left after a body is put into a cremation furnace? The only thing left are things like titanium screws and plates if they had some bone repair work done, which the collect and send back to the manufactures for reuse.

BTW, where did you get this idea about the molten iron core of the earth being the hell of the Bible? Are they reduced to iron in there? They would be if they were down there, as all the lighter elements would rise up to the surface of the earth, like carbon, for instance. Again, I've never heard that before, and I'm pretty knowledgeable about this stuff.

All we know of Jesus and His teachings are in the Bible.

Do you believe that is really the only place? I don't. Scripture never teaches that anywhere. "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth." People are led by the Spirit all the time, if they are able to hear with the ears of the heart. Nowhere in scripture does it say, "the Bible only". They didn't even have any of the books of the NT to read when the early church was formed. That didn't come for a couple hundred years later. So, no. You're wrong.

You choose subjectively to take some literally and some as metaphor, often switching the two in their reality. Did Jesus literally die on a cross? Literally resurrect? Was He literally God? etc. and without these things you have heretical doctrine and are not a born again Christian, although I hope you are merely a lapsed born again Christian because I don't want you to go to a literal Hell IMHO. Please have the last word on this matter.

Oh, I see! So you are making yourself the judge of another man's servant! I suggest you read Romans 14. That might humble you a bit here, young one.

You have New Age doctrines on love from a wishy washy God who does not care enough to tell us literal truth. All religions have Hell, a devil and judgment because God in His sovereignty lets us see truth. Please stop obscuring truth.

No. No New Age here. I can cite a great many Christians contemporary and historical who share these understandings and views of faith. It's only arrogant and immature fundamentalist who close their minds and hearts to understandings from others. I suggest you spend some time seeking humility, rather than arrogantly judging another who does not esteem the same beliefs the same ways you do.

Thanks, but no thanks. I've eaten from that plate you're serving from, and it has nothing of value to offer.

P.S. I have notice a trend with fundamentalists. Once they've run out of being able to respond reasonably, they resort to insults. You've followed that pattern right on schedule. There was no need to insult me. Yet, you chose to. That's on you.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm not sure what you are reading there, but the "kill the body" reference was about not being afraid of being killed physically by some person or other, because physical death is nothing compared to the agony of separation from God. That fits quite well with everything I have said. The body is nothing, but the soul is more important. That's all he is saying. And the "power to cast you into hell", is again a metaphor for separation from God. There's nothing physical about that. "Don't fear physical death, but fear spiritual separation from God". That's what I'm reading there. It doesn't matter if that is here or in the afterlife. It's the same thing.


So when the Bible says, perfect Love casts out fear, that of course does not mean what it says, since hell, which is nothing but Fear, exists within God, according to you. Again, how do you reconcile this whole God's wrath and hellfire, with Jesus' injunction for us to love our enemies, because God does that? I can't quite see how those fit together. Love and hate, from the same God? "God is Hate", is not in the Bible anywhere that I've read.


Oh, let's not be so literal shall we? By the way, how are eyeballs the secrete fluids and teeth that gnash, going to survive temperature like that in the earth's core? Have you ever seen what's left after a body is put into a cremation furnace? The only thing left are things like titanium screws and plates if they had some bone repair work done, which the collect and send back to the manufactures for reuse.

BTW, where did you get this idea about the molten iron core of the earth being the hell of the Bible? Are they reduced to iron in there? They would be if they were down there, as all the lighter elements would rise up to the surface of the earth, like carbon, for instance. Again, I've never heard that before, and I'm pretty knowledgeable about this stuff.


Do you believe that is really the only place? I don't. Scripture never teaches that anywhere. "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth." People are led by the Spirit all the time, if they are able to hear with the ears of the heart. Nowhere in scripture does it say, "the Bible only". They didn't even have any of the books of the NT to read when the early church was formed. That didn't come for a couple hundred years later. So, no. You're wrong.


Oh, I see! So you are making yourself the judge of another man's servant! I suggest you read Romans 14. That might humble you a bit here, young one.


No. No New Age here. I can cite a great many Christians contemporary and historical who share these understandings and views of faith. It's only arrogant and immature fundamentalist who close their minds and hearts to understandings from others. I suggest you spend some time seeking humility, rather than arrogantly judging another who does not esteem the same beliefs the same ways you do.

Thanks, but no thanks. I've eaten from that plate you're serving from, and it has nothing of value to offer.

P.S. I have notice a trend with fundamentalists. Once they've run out of being able to respond reasonably, they resort to insults. You've followed that pattern right on schedule. There was no need to insult me. Yet, you chose to. That's on you.

I'm not trying to be insulting in any way, please forgive me. I'm trying to ask you to change your interpretation method for example:

"I'm not sure what you are reading there, but . . . the body is nothing, but the soul is more important. That's all he is saying."

What I read there was "do not be afraid of those who can kill the body . . . but reverence God," so THOSE are people who kill people. You keep interpreting half the verse, the way you have half of the story, God's love, without the other half, justice.