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Theological Nonrealism: "God" is imperative, not indicative

Wandered Off

Sporadic Driveby Member
I wanted to share what I thought were Some worthwhile excerpts from Sea of Faith by retired Anglican Bishop Don Cuppitt. I find his approach to theology really resonates with me, being one who was unable to continue belief in the hyper-literal tradition I was raised:
God (and this is a definition) is the sum of our values, representing to us their ideal unity, their claims upon us and their creative power. Mythologically, he has been portrayed as an objective being, because ancient thought tended to personify values in the belief that important words must stand for things. ... Values do not have to be independently and objectively existent beings in order to be able to claim our allegiance. We can, after all, recognize that duty calls or that noblesse oblige without supposing that duty or noblesse are real beings. Indeed, thinking of values as objective beings out there does not help us in any way to progress towards a clearer understanding of the special part they play in our lives. We can do without that mythological notion.
...
As with values, so with God, because God's status in the language is very close to that of values. God simply is the ideal unity of all value, its claim upon us, and its creative power. (God is indeed the creator, for value indeed makes the world.) But the Platonic notion of God as an objective being, out there in a higher world, does nothing to explain the way he functions as our God, chosen by us, our religious ideal, our life-aim and the inner meaning of our identity. Just as you should not think of justice and truth as independent beings, so you should not think of God as an objectively existing superperson. That is a mythological and confusing way of thinking. The truth, we now see, is that the idea of God is imperative, not indicative. To speak of God is to speak about the moral and spiritual goals we ought to be aiming at, and about what we ought to become. The meaning of 'God' is religious, not metaphysical, even though unfortunately a deeply engrained habit of self-mystification leads most people, most of the time, radically to misconstrue the true meaning of religious language. The true God is not God as picturesque supernatural fact, but God as our religious ideal.

The view that religious belief consists in holding that a number of picturesque supernatural propositions are descriptively true is encouraged by the continuing grip on people's minds of a decadent and mystifying dogmatic theology. In effect I am arguing that for the sake of clarity it should be discarded entirely, and replaced by the practice of religion - ethics and spirituality - and the philosophy of religion. Then religion can become itself again, with a clear intellectual conscience at last.

Does this amount to saying that God is simply a humanly constructed ideal, such that when there are no human beings any longer there will be no God any longer? This question is improper, because it is framed from the obsolete realist point of view. The suggestion that the idea of God is man-made would only seem startling if we could point by contrast to something that has not been made by humans. But since our language shapes every topic raised in it, we cannot. In an innocuous sense, all our normative ideas have been posited by ourselves, including the truths of logic and mathematics as well as all our ideals and values. How else could we have acquired them? Thus God is humanly made only in the non-startling sense that everything is. That is modern anthropocentrism. But even on my account God is as real for us as anything else can be, and more primally authoritative than anything else is.
...
For the Christian, this task of working out a vision of God takes the more human and concrete form of framing a personal vision of Christ, who is our own ideal alter ego, our true Self that we are to become, our religious ideal actualized in human form. But he too, as Western Christians have always known, is tragic. The image that most reminds us of him is the cross.

When we have fully accepted these ideas and have freed ourselves from nostalgia for a cosmic Father Christmas, then our faith can at last become fully human, existential, voluntary, pure, and free from superstition. To reach this goal is Christianity's destiny, now approaching.
...
...all the doctrines of faith are not indicatives but symbol-clad imperatives; so that the doctrine of resurrection, for example, does not promise another life hereafter but tells us how to live now a new life that has left the fear of death behind. Rightly understood, the doctrine is not a set of supernatural facts that generate the ethic and the spirituality: the doctrine just is the ethic and the spirituality, with no gap between.
To me, it makes much more sense to view God the same way we view concepts like infinity, bliss, or perfection - ideals toward which we strive. This is the meaning we can derive from otherwise empty or contradictory concepts like omnipotence, omnibenevolence, and similar terms used to describe God.
 
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Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
This is not Christianity- this is atheist humanism colliding with the Upanishads. Christ taught us to pray "our Father". He taught that he was the Son of the Father. Genesis begins with the God who, distinct from the world, creates all its cosmic powers by his word.

The imperative is sensical because it draws its meaning from the indicative.

So to begin with, we should at least agree that what is said above has abandonded all pretense to biblical religion and could not be rightfully called Christianity.
 

Wandered Off

Sporadic Driveby Member
I can't agree. It has abandoned all pretense to literal Biblical religion to be sure. Nobody "owns" the definition of Christianity. The non-realist view is a different interpretation, no less "rightfully" Christian. It is quite humanistic, as you point out.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Although I find Bishop Cuppitt's thoughts well formed and sensible, I have a feeling his ideas are too esoteric and intellectual for the steaming masses.

His words also make me realize I still don't feel the necessity to look for God. And, that's a good thing. :)

My favorite part is this:

The view that religious belief consists in holding that a number of picturesque supernatural propositions are descriptively true is encouraged by the continuing grip on people's minds of a decadent and mystifying dogmatic theology. In effect I am arguing that for the sake of clarity it should be discarded entirely, and replaced by the practice of religion - ethics and spirituality - and the philosophy of religion. Then religion can become itself again, with a clear intellectual conscience at last.

Smart stuff.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
This part is very instructive and relates I think to the ideas being discussed in the thread on superstition:

Does this amount to saying that God is simply a humanly constructed ideal, such that when there are no human beings any longer there will be no God any longer? This question is improper, because it is framed from the obsolete realist point of view. The suggestion that the idea of God is man-made would only seem startling if we could point by contrast to something that has not been made by humans. But since our language shapes every topic raised in it, we cannot. In an innocuous sense, all our normative ideas have been posited by ourselves, including the truths of logic and mathematics as well as all our ideals and values. How else could we have acquired them? Thus God is humanly made only in the non-startling sense that everything is. That is modern anthropocentrism. But even on my account God is as real for us as anything else can be, and more primally authoritative than anything else is.
 

Wandered Off

Sporadic Driveby Member
Excerpts from Cuppitt's book After God:

…I am proposing a very considerable redefinition of religion, a redefinition that (to adopt a Christian vocabulary) will bring religion closer to the Kingdom than to the Church, closer to the Sermon on the Mount than to any sort of orthodox theology, and will make it very short-termist in outlook. Unlike the secular theologies of the 1960’s, it will “aestheticize” religion, in the sense that it sees religious living in terms of artistic practice and symbolic expression. As redefined here, religious life is an expressive, world-building activity through which we can get ourselves together and find a kind of posthumous, or retrospective, happiness.

In the meantime, the dictionary still defines religion in terms of supernatural belief. People are going to protest that nearly all human beings throughout history have lived enclosed within a magical and religious style of thinking and vision of the world. Humans have believed in a great range of invisible supernatural beings and powers, in heavens and hells, in gods and spirits and departed souls. If I am simply discarding all that, and yet still retaining the word religion, I’ve got a lot of explaining to do. Why did we have to come this way? Why did we have to trudge through all those millenia of supernatural belief and mythical thinking before we could come to the simple and obvious truth? Why has the education of the human race followed such a bizarre and circuitous route?

. . .

I put forward a new linguistic theory of religious practice and religious objects. Very briefly it runs as follows:

1. As both philosophy and religion have in the past taught, there is indeed an unseen intelligible world, or spirit world, about us and within us.

2. The invisible world is the world of words and other symbols.

3. The entire supernatural world of religion is a mythical representation of the world of language

4. Through the practice of its religion, a society represents to itself, and confirms, the varied ways in which its language builds its world.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Apart from some political motivations, or maybe some unnecessary loss of metaphysical nerve, I can see no compelling intellectual reason to accept this reformulation.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
This is kind of like training-wheels for developing a fully-developed humanist/rationalist worldview. I like it. I think it is a great transitional phase on the way from superstition to reality, for those whose indoctrination runs deep.
 

ManTimeForgot

Temporally Challenged
It may not be possible to both develop and implement a fully rational/humanist world-view that most people would accept.


In the final analysis what has stopped all Utopian experiments really had very little to do with conceptualizing that which is good and everything to do with an oversight on the part of the implementors/creators of the utopia:

Always remember that 50% of the population has an IQ of 100 or less. Maybe "training wheels" is the best that people can do...

MTF
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Interesting stuff....

very mystical, even if there is a denial of such things

We see a shift from the mundane exoteric iteralism that many christians follow, to an embracing of the mystical and non literal.

Of course ultimatly it fails as it flatly denies, or hints at a denial of the invisible and the divine and its agencies itself.

But we have the two extremes.... those that take things literally and believe in the divine and the invisible, angels, saints etc etc etc
and then this stance, that seeks a more esoteric non literal stance...but hints at wanting to do away with angels.

Then there is a third stance, that of "real esotericism" that embraces literal and non literal approaches...and also embraces the invisible divine and its agencies, but not only believes, it DEMANDS that one interacts with them, so that one will KNOW them , themselves......

This last stance would be the next quantum leap for our Anglican theologians to take....
Maybe it will take another 3 or 4 hundred years...lets hope not.

But anyway....very interesting stuff.
 

TheMindSmack

New Member
I can't agree. It has abandoned all pretense to literal Biblical religion to be sure. Nobody "owns" the definition of Christianity. The non-realist view is a different interpretation, no less "rightfully" Christian. It is quite humanistic, as you point out.

There can be no possession of an already existing reality, to be sure, but all you have said has lead away from the basis of Christianity itself. God, as perceived by Christians, and as MEANT to be perceived in a realist way, is not an ideal or goal, but rather the Father whom the child seeks to become more like. There is certainly nothing wrong with your interpretation of the ideas of God and Jesus, but to claim them as a nonrealism interpretation of the doctrines that have established Christianity is to take away from its foundation, so your interpretation is a separate entity, not a different perception coinciding with the doctrines and belief system.
 

imaginaryme

Active Member
It may not be possible to both develop and implement a fully rational/humanist world-view that most people would accept.


In the final analysis what has stopped all Utopian experiments really had very little to do with conceptualizing that which is good and everything to do with an oversight on the part of the implementors/creators of the utopia:

Always remember that 50% of the population has an IQ of 100 or less. Maybe "training wheels" is the best that people can do...

MTF
Truth from essential stupidity, friend MTF. The last sentence applied to the first may indicate that a "divine paradigm" may just make a "fully rational/ humanist world-view" palatable to the sheep... and I use these terms for just symbolic simplification. I'm all 141, but I am a dumb sheep myself at times. :D
 

ManTimeForgot

Temporally Challenged
Truth from essential stupidity, friend MTF. The last sentence applied to the first may indicate that a "divine paradigm" may just make a "fully rational/ humanist world-view" palatable to the sheep... and I use these terms for just symbolic simplification. I'm all 141, but I am a dumb sheep myself at times. :D


I'm of comparable IQ (not that I consider that to be all that indicative of intelligence proper; I ascribe to the many intelligences theory of intelligence personally), but I too have my sheepish moments. I think everybody caves in to peer pressure or gives in to habit or tradition every once in a while; that is I think inescapable.

But supposing you did make a belief system which was "palatable to sheep" how then would you guarantee that elites would actually ascribe to it? If I have learned anything from christianity it is that you can make a belief system which is generally acceptable (the monotheism "template" for religion is a world-wide success), but that it will be much more difficult to gather or maintain elites. The common interest of elites is power/privilege/influence and common notions of morality (rational or not) generally include altruistic maxims or propositions which usually leads to a cadre of elites which pay lip service to a particular credo without actually practicing it.

MTF
 
This slightly amended piece proves to me that the meaning of God is love.

Ecstatic self love to be precise.

"Love (and this is a definition) is the sum of our values, representing to us their ideal unity, their claims upon us and their creative power. Mythologically, it has been portrayed as an objective being, because ancient thought tended to personify values in the belief that important words must stand for things. ... Values do not have to be independently and objectively existent beings in order to be able to claim our allegiance. We can, after all, recognize that duty calls or that noblesse oblige without supposing that duty or noblesse are real beings. Indeed, thinking of values as objective beings out there does not help us in any way to progress towards a clearer understanding of the special part they play in our lives. We can do without that mythological notion.
...
As with values, so with love, because love's status in the language is very close to that of values. love simply is the ideal unity of all value, its claim upon us, and its creative power. (love is indeed the creator, for value indeed makes the world.) But the Platonic notion of God as an objective being, out there in a higher world, does nothing to explain the way he functions as our God, chosen by us, our religious ideal, our life-aim and the inner meaning of our identity. Just as you should not think of justice and truth as independent beings, so you should not think of God as an objectively existing superperson. That is a mythological and confusing way of thinking. The truth, we now see, is that the idea of love is imperative, not indicative. To speak of love is to speak about the moral and spiritual goals we ought to be aiming at, and about what we ought to become. The meaning of 'love' is religious, not metaphysical, even though unfortunately a deeply engrained habit of self-mystification leads most people, most of the time, radically to misconstrue the true meaning of religious language. The true love is not love as picturesque supernatural fact, but love as our religious ideal.

The view that religious belief consists in holding that a number of picturesque supernatural propositions are descriptively true is encouraged by the continuing grip on people's minds of a decadent and mystifying dogmatic theology. In effect I am arguing that for the sake of clarity it should be discarded entirely, and replaced by the practice of religion - ethics and spirituality - and the philosophy of religion. Then religion can become itself again, with a clear intellectual conscience at last.

Does this amount to saying that love is simply a humanly constructed ideal, such that when there are no human beings any longer there will be no love any longer? This question is improper, because it is framed from the obsolete realist point of view. The suggestion that the idea of love is man-made would only seem startling if we could point by contrast to something that has not been made by humans. But since our language shapes every topic raised in it, we cannot. In an innocuous sense, all our normative ideas have been posited by ourselves, including the truths of logic and mathematics as well as all our ideals and values. How else could we have acquired them? Thus love is humanly made only in the non-startling sense that everything is. That is modern anthropocentrism. But even on my account love is as real for us as anything else can be, and more primally authoritative than anything else is.
...
For the Christian, this task of working out a vision of love takes the more human and concrete form of framing a personal vision of Christ, who is our own ideal alter ego, our true Self that we are to become, our religious ideal actualized in human form. But he too, as Western Christians have always known, is tragic. The image that most reminds us of him is the cross.

When we have fully accepted these ideas and have freed ourselves from nostalgia for a cosmic Father Christmas, then our faith can at last become fully human, existential, voluntary, pure, and free from superstition. To reach this goal is Christianity's destiny, now approaching.
...
...all the doctrines of faith are not indicatives but symbol-clad imperatives; so that the doctrine of resurrection, for example, does not promise another life hereafter but tells us how to live now a new life that has left the fear of death behind. Rightly understood, the doctrine is not a set of supernatural facts that generate the ethic and the spirituality: the doctrine just is the ethic and the spirituality, with no gap between. "

I am with the author most of the way,although mystifying dogma should be crushed in order to produce nugget's of meta information.*Normative life * is also a nice label.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Very interesting comments. I think that his remarks continue an existing intellectual tradition of de-anthropomorphizing Christianity. It works best with very Christians who find traditional anthropomorphic images of God unacceptable, but I think that it tends to drive more conservative members away from the church.

Another trend that it continues is one that dominated 20th century British philosophy--the idea that language underlay philosophical conundrums. In this case, it is religion rather than philosophy that has language problems. Ideal Language philosophers (e.g. Bertrand Russell) wanted to construct a formal logical language that would not allow one to state paradoxes. Ordinary Language philosophers would write papers explaining how the paradoxes arose because language was being used incorrectly. Cuppitt's approach to theology seems to take the approach of Ordinary Language philosophers.

Theoretical linguists tend to disagree with the idea that language is the root of all evil (at least, philosophical evils). I would take that tack with Cuppitt, as well. The problem here is that the more literal interpretation of the Bible is pretty straightforward unless you want it to mean something other than what its authors intended it to mean. Unless we are to dismiss the entire enterprise as a figment of overactive human imagination--i.e. the atheist position--then we have to move in the direction that Cuppitt has moved--de-anthropmorphization.

Now, I suspect that Cuppitt is not entirely consistent in his linguistic argument. By turning God into something of a feeling rather than an objective agent, he has introduced changes to the narrative that affect core interpretation of the religion--the entire point of having a resurrection, for example. What is "original sin" in his new formulation? Was a man really crucified back in the day of Pontius Pilate? Did that event have significance for human redemption?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Sounds like a form of Christianity that doesn't allow Christians to be complacent, but rather, actively engaged in all points of time. I love the denial of the objective..

I would like to read more on this sometime when I get the chance.
I agree with him that the ontological is just mythology to confirm some particular relative view under all circumstances.. and I just don't think it's healthy at all.

Those who believe this over an Abrahamic religion will have to acknowledge all the contexts of a particular situation involving morality.
 
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