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Theodicy -- Let's Dig Deeper

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
As defined by Alvin Plantinga, theodicy is the "answer to the question of why God permits evil." Theodicy is defined as a theological construct that attempts to vindicate God in response to the evidential problem of evil that seems inconsistent with the existence of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent deity. Another definition of theodicy is the vindication of divine goodness and providence in view of the existence of evil. The word theodicy derives from the Greek words Θεός Τheos and δίκη dikē. Theos is translated "God" and dikē can be translated as either "trial" or "judgement". Thus, theodicy literally means "justifying God.”

I don’t think this definition goes far enough, however, and would like interested members to explore further, into not only what God allows, but what God Himself does. What follows is taken from the Christian perspective, as I couldn’t do justice to any other religion. Other members may take that challenge on if they’d like.

What traditional theodicies never seem to look at are questions about what God ordains, or does, or causes to be done. Things like: eternal punishment after death, and unjust, God-ordained or God-committed actions in this world.

For example: we are told that defaulters from Christian belief are condemned to eternal torture in hell. We are also told that believers, although they may have committed horrible crimes in life, can repent and have a chance to avoid that eternal punishment and achieve salvation. That is never available to someone who simply cannot bring himself to believe, given the lack of any evidence whatever. The question is: is that just?

Let us consider the flood of Noah, or the plagues of Egypt, or the Massacre of Canaanites: the flood, we are told, was deliberately caused by God and drowned all humans on earth except Noah and 7 family members, and all of the animals except a few saved on the ark. All humans, including the infant born just when the rain began to fall. God orders that the Canaanites be destroyed, including the women and children, except for the females who were still virgins, who the Hebrews could keep for themselves. In Egypt, God finally sends a “destroyer” targeted on the first-born of Egypt, from the first-born of Pharaoh to the first-born of the lowly farmers sheep. What on earth was the crime committed by those first-born sons of Egypt – including the children? Can we say, after all this, that God acted justly and rightly? Or did God do very real evil?

Let us consider, turning to the New Testament, Ananias and Sapphira. They sold their property, but withheld some of the price for themselves, giving the rest to Peter and the Apostles. Because they withheld some of their own money, and did not admit to the true price they had received, they died on the spot – a story presented in a magical-enough way to make it clear that these were miracle deaths, and therefore caused by God. But in the story (Acts 5), Peter himself made it clear that Ananias was in control of his own money, and could give or keep it as he saw fit. Were their deaths at the Hand of God just?

In other words, does God not only allow evil in the world, but is He the proximate cause of much evil in the world? Discuss.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Not something I dwell on or understand, however, I will offer this for discussion. Because theodicies, as theories are not a solution but are part of the problem. Their attempt to explain God's reasons for allowing evil in the world creates myths that make God ultimately responsible for evil. They are false in that they claim to know God's reasons and also create a world that denies the existence of social sin.

Logical defenses show it is possible to believe without contradictions two propositions that only seem contradictory; that God is omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent, and that there is evil in the world. The reality of God may be affirmed and recognize the reality of evil, without a theory to explain why God allows evil in the world. A theodicy offers a theory to explain why God allows evils. A defense simply shows that two propositions p and q are logically compatible. The defense does not explain what God does, but simply shows that the believer is not irrational in holding both propositions. Logic of the free will defense is clear;

p God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent

q There is genuine evil in the actual world.

The 'problem' of evil is that these propositions seem incompatible, contradictory. It is logically the case that if there is a possibly true proposition r that combined with p entails q, then p and q are not contradictory, but compatible. So consider r, which would do the job;

r All the genuine evil in the world is the result of the choices of creatures with free will.

The point is that r has to be possibly true, not actually true. One may think r is false while recognizing that it could possibly be true. But why think r is possibly true, couldn't God know how to make free creatures not produce evil?

Now consider s; An omnipotent God cannot make creatures such that they always freely choose the good. What s does is to show that it is logically contradictory to think God can control the choices of free creatures. God could make creatures always choose the good or God could make creatures free. Either God is in control and creatures are not free, or the creatures are free but God cannot be in control. Since s must be true (a logical point), r is possibly true, p and q are both possibly true and compatible with each other. Put together p, q, r,s; even an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God could not make the world such that God could make it both with free creatures who are free and without evil.

reference: Terrence Tilley "Doing Theology in the Context of the Gift
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
consider r, which would do the job;

r All the genuine evil in the world is the result of the choices of creatures with free will.
But God is said to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and perfect, no?

And God is said to have created the universe.

At the time God created the universe, therefore, [he] perfectly knew everything that was ever going to happen in the universe. Indeed, being omnipresent, [he]'s already been in every part of spacetime from beginning to end, so as far as God's concerned, the future has always already happened.

Therefore there's never been such a thing as theological free will (leaving aside the problem of free will and the physical sciences), No one, no matter how free they thought their choices were, could ever deviate even by the width of a quark from what God perfectly foresaw and intended when [he] made the universe and had already experienced omnipresently in person.

And in a universe with an omnipotent, omniscient perfect God, the only possible source of evil is God's intention ─ the only way out being to postulate that God is NOT omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent or perfect.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
I will approach this from a Catholic perceptive.

On the first point. In the Christian perspective, those who cooperate with prevenient grace necessarily come to faith. Atheism is culpable because God does not deny anyone the grace of faith unless the will by free choice has closed itself off from it. This is usually due to worldly attachments. God predestines those who cooperate with him. Those he foresees will not cooperate he leaves to ruin. God will not force a person's will.

On the second point. Yes, many passages in the Bible seem harsh. Which is something all Christians who take scripture seriously have to wrestle with. But in humility we must remember that to give or take life is a prerogative of God. It belongs to him. It is his property. And since we're discussing this from a Christian perspective remember that physical death is not the ultimate evil. Our souls are immortal and when God summons us from this world we don't cease to exist, we continue on in another state. There is no reason to assume the spiritual fate of all those slain in Egypt or Canaan was an unhappy one. God does not condemn the innocent. But he does not promise anyone (not even the innocent) a full life on Earth.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
In other words, does God not only allow evil in the world, but is He the proximate cause of much evil in the world? Discuss.
I am still learning about the way theology has developed. I'm watching a series on the gnostics and the Nag Hammadi texts, so that I can put my own spin on that knowledge. What I gather so far, is that some the known groups of gnostics consider the physical creator to be evil; but this seems surface knowledge in their mythic epics which they believe convey a deeper 'Gnosis' of truth. Why did they start doing this?

I think after Titus overran the city of peace (Jerusalem) many approaches were taken to save the hope of peace, and towards this end explanations for evil in the world were put forward to explain recent events. The gnostic myths express some of these. In the previous paradigm before Titus, following the law and doing good ought to stabilize the nation and bring good things. Instead Jerusalem has been overrun by Titus and its good men crucified publicly. Failure and shame have come instead of good.

How to find and correct the error which has lead to this ironic situation? Some gnostics describe the previous Israel as evil, some its God as evil or false or not the real one all in an attempt to explain what has happened, because what has happened does not fit into the going paradigm. Each of these schools of thought represents a complete rethink of Judaism, and only one of these is the (now) worldwide catholic church with its own way of dealing with the problem -- the theodicy you bring up.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Not something I dwell on or understand, however, I will offer this for discussion. Because theodicies, as theories are not a solution but are part of the problem. Their attempt to explain God's reasons for allowing evil in the world creates myths that make God ultimately responsible for evil. They are false in that they claim to know God's reasons and also create a world that denies the existence of social sin.

Logical defenses show it is possible to believe without contradictions two propositions that only seem contradictory; that God is omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent, and that there is evil in the world. The reality of God may be affirmed and recognize the reality of evil, without a theory to explain why God allows evil in the world. A theodicy offers a theory to explain why God allows evils. A defense simply shows that two propositions p and q are logically compatible. The defense does not explain what God does, but simply shows that the believer is not irrational in holding both propositions. Logic of the free will defense is clear;

p God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent

q There is genuine evil in the actual world.

The 'problem' of evil is that these propositions seem incompatible, contradictory. It is logically the case that if there is a possibly true proposition r that combined with p entails q, then p and q are not contradictory, but compatible. So consider r, which would do the job;

r All the genuine evil in the world is the result of the choices of creatures with free will.

The point is that r has to be possibly true, not actually true. One may think r is false while recognizing that it could possibly be true. But why think r is possibly true, couldn't God know how to make free creatures not produce evil?

Now consider s; An omnipotent God cannot make creatures such that they always freely choose the good. What s does is to show that it is logically contradictory to think God can control the choices of free creatures. God could make creatures always choose the good or God could make creatures free. Either God is in control and creatures are not free, or the creatures are free but God cannot be in control. Since s must be true (a logical point), r is possibly true, p and q are both possibly true and compatible with each other. Put together p, q, r,s; even an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God could not make the world such that God could make it both with free creatures who are free and without evil.

reference: Terrence Tilley "Doing Theology in the Context of the Gift

Quite apart from the fact that it is manifestly untrue that "All the genuine evil in the world is the result of the choices of creatures with free will", free will itself, in any sense that would make your argument valid, is itself a contradiction.

We make our "free" choices either as entirely deterministic systems (in other words, each choice is the direct result of our nature, nurture, and total life experience up to the moment of choice) or not. If not, to the extent it is free from being deterministic, it must be random (which is hardly freedom).

From the point of view of an omniscient, omnipotent creator, there can be no created being with free will because said creator would have effectively chosen (by the act of creation) everybody's nature, nurture, and life of experience.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
As defined by Alvin Plantinga, theodicy is the "answer to the question of why God permits evil." Theodicy is defined as a theological construct that attempts to vindicate God in response to the evidential problem of evil that seems inconsistent with the existence of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent deity. Another definition of theodicy is the vindication of divine goodness and providence in view of the existence of evil. The word theodicy derives from the Greek words Θεός Τheos and δίκη dikē. Theos is translated "God" and dikē can be translated as either "trial" or "judgement". Thus, theodicy literally means "justifying God.”

...

In other words, does God not only allow evil in the world, but is He the proximate cause of much evil in the world? Discuss.

Well, for me, the simplest answer is that, either God does not exist at all, or God is not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnibenevolent. It seems that answering the problem of evil was meant to maintain the idea that God is "all good" and "all loving," rather than simply justifying God.

I think it would also require some firm definitions of what is "good" and what is "evil." More specifically, what causes "evil" to exist in the first place. If humans have free will, what is it that drives a human to choose "evil" over "good"? Are they just born that way? Are they a product of a "bad seed"? Were they raised to be "evil"? Were they so harshly abused and traumatized in their lives that it may have created mental illness or a vindictive attitude towards the world?

A choice made under duress is not likely a true reflection of one's free will, and for a species that was designed to be very fragile, history has shown that it's quite easy to put people under extreme stress and duress so as to control behavior and human will. As Orwell put it, "We create human nature. Men are infinitely malleable."

Also, in the context of "free will," there's the implication that humans are deliberately "choosing evil," when such may not be entirely obvious to the individual faced with the choice. I daresay that most people who would be objectively regarded as "evil" do not know or do not believe that they are "evil." (By the way, I put "good" and "evil" in quotes because I think they are flawed concepts to begin with.) For example, most objective observers might consider Charles Manson to be truly "evil," but his followers believed he was Jesus Christ. If they truly believed that in their heart of hearts, does that still mean that they're "evil"? If they believed they were doing "good," would that change anything in terms of how they are judged in the Afterlife?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Now consider s; An omnipotent God cannot make creatures such that they always freely choose the good. What s does is to show that it is logically contradictory to think God can control the choices of free creatures. God could make creatures always choose the good or God could make creatures free. Either God is in control and creatures are not free, or the creatures are free but God cannot be in control. Since s must be true (a logical point), r is possibly true, p and q are both possibly true and compatible with each other. Put together p, q, r,s; even an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God could not make the world such that God could make it both with free creatures who are free and without evil.
This is not convincing for the simple reason that we are equipped with instincts that help us avoid harm. For instance, we have an innate sense of disgust that help us avoiding ingesting things that are bad for us. So, my free will is anyway impinged by some physical barriers that I have. If I wanted to eat a rotting corpse, my body would likely react to repel me from the very idea.

So, why not implementing the same for sin, also considering that the consequences thereof are vastly bigger than some stomach sickness? Why don't we feel disgust for so many things that a Christian would consider sinful?

Ciao

- viole
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Now consider s; An omnipotent God cannot make creatures such that they always freely choose the good. What s does is to show that it is logically contradictory to think God can control the choices of free creatures. God could make creatures always choose the good or God could make creatures free. Either God is in control and creatures are not free, or the creatures are free but God cannot be in control. Since s must be true (a logical point), r is possibly true, p and q are both possibly true and compatible with each other. Put together p, q, r,s; even an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God could not make the world such that God could make it both with free creatures who are free and without evil.

The implied assumption underlying all of this is that "God made the world" and that all of the creatures within it were designed according to God's will. By design, our existence is limited; all living creatures were born to die.

Essentially, we are inmates in a prison, with God as the warden. We are prisoners within our own bodies, as designed by God.

God designed us in such a way so that we would have a survival instinct, fear of death, a constant need for food, water, and air - all of which keeps us tethered to this little ball of mud inside an air bubble floating through a vast emptiness. We were also designed to need sleep; if humans don't get enough sleep, they can become psychotic - which would also strongly affect one's "free will."

Our "free will" is roughly analogous to the choices a rat in a maze might make. There really is no "freedom" in what essentially amounts to a controlled experiment with creatures who are captives and at the mercy of the whims of this supposed omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent deity.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I will approach this from a Catholic perceptive.

Catechism of the Catholic Church: "To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of 'predestination', he includes in it each person's free response to his grace…." (CCC, n. 600).

The predestination of God seeks the salvation of all. But the predestination of God also humbly respects our free will. And so this predestination to salvation does not occur in such a way that free will has no choice or no ability to obtain salvation, but only in such a way that all future free will decisions are included in the knowledge of God, with the grace that makes the will free and the offer of every grace without exception needed to obtain eternal life. God also knows in advance which souls will be lost to Hell forever by their own free will decisions, despite all His graces. But this knowledge does not compel, and this free will decision not to repent from actual mortal sin (final impenitence) is made despite every grace needed to repent.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
There is genuine evil in the actual world.

I hold an Eastern perspective but not necessarily a strictly Hindu one.

From this perspective, we are all players in God's "great dream", governed by 'maya', the principle of illusion, that makes God' dream seem like reality and us seem like separate beings.

In this dream, we enjoy apparent happiness and suffer apparent misery. But when we finally wake up, become enlightened, achieve moksha, the illusion falls away and all our happiness and misery are realized as not having been more than a dream from which we've awakened.

And we discover that the apparent joy and apparent suffering led inevitably to that eventual awakening. So the problem theodicy attempts to address resolves into people being "shaken" in order to help them wake up.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Not something I dwell on or understand, however, I will offer this for discussion. Because theodicies, as theories are not a solution but are part of the problem. Their attempt to explain God's reasons for allowing evil in the world creates myths that make God ultimately responsible for evil. They are false in that they claim to know God's reasons and also create a world that denies the existence of social sin.

Logical defenses show it is possible to believe without contradictions two propositions that only seem contradictory; that God is omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent, and that there is evil in the world. The reality of God may be affirmed and recognize the reality of evil, without a theory to explain why God allows evil in the world. A theodicy offers a theory to explain why God allows evils. A defense simply shows that two propositions p and q are logically compatible. The defense does not explain what God does, but simply shows that the believer is not irrational in holding both propositions. Logic of the free will defense is clear;

p God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent

q There is genuine evil in the actual world.

The 'problem' of evil is that these propositions seem incompatible, contradictory. It is logically the case that if there is a possibly true proposition r that combined with p entails q, then p and q are not contradictory, but compatible. So consider r, which would do the job;

r All the genuine evil in the world is the result of the choices of creatures with free will.

The point is that r has to be possibly true, not actually true. One may think r is false while recognizing that it could possibly be true. But why think r is possibly true, couldn't God know how to make free creatures not produce evil?

Now consider s; An omnipotent God cannot make creatures such that they always freely choose the good. What s does is to show that it is logically contradictory to think God can control the choices of free creatures. God could make creatures always choose the good or God could make creatures free. Either God is in control and creatures are not free, or the creatures are free but God cannot be in control. Since s must be true (a logical point), r is possibly true, p and q are both possibly true and compatible with each other. Put together p, q, r,s; even an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God could not make the world such that God could make it both with free creatures who are free and without evil.

reference: Terrence Tilley "Doing Theology in the Context of the Gift
This totally ignores the "deeper dig" that I was looking for. At this deeper level, we are not looking at the "free will" of humans, but at the exercise of free will by God Himself. So, for example, who knows, it might have true that there was a lot of evil on earth that God decided to destroy it. But there cannot be any doubt that newborns and infants cannot be held responsible for "evil acts" in any way or form -- and therefore we must ask, was there not some other method available to an omnipotent deity to deal with those who could actually be held culpable, instead of just murdering everybody?

And while thinking about that last question, remember that in killing only the first-born of Egypt, God demonstrating a very precise ability to aim his wrath exactly where he pleased -- that is, there would have been no need, during the flood, to simply kill everybody who wasn't on Noah's ark.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
So, why not implementing the same for sin, also considering that the consequences thereof are vastly bigger than some stomach sickness? Why don't we feel disgust for so many things that a Christian would consider sinful?

Oh I think we do, have you never been morally disgusted at man's inhumanity.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
In other words, does God not only allow evil in the world, but is He the proximate cause of much evil in the world?

And while thinking about that last question, remember that in killing only the first-born of Egypt, God demonstrating a very precise ability to aim his wrath exactly where he pleased -- that is, there would have been no need, during the flood, to simply kill everybody who wasn't on Noah's ark.

If we are discussing the Christian God...


The Omniscient Christian God spent almost all of eternity doing nothing (that we know of) except maybe thinking about his upcoming creation.

After doing the universe, the world, and the animals, He finally got around to creating someone in his own image - Adam. With all the animals, somehow God knew He would need to make a male and a female version. Yet since Adam was created in his own image, Omniscient God felt no need to make a female version.

Oops!

He realized, somewhat after the fact, that, unlike himself, Man would need help meets.

The Omnipotent Christian God created Adam and Eve exactly as He wanted to create them. The Omniscient Christian God knew that A&E would disobey Him. Then He turned around and blamed them for all of their descendants' problems forever.

Perhaps The Omnipotent, Omniscient Christian God is really only a young petty vindictive god whose daddy told him to go ahead and create a universe/world as practice.

Perhaps there are other possibilities.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
And while thinking about that last question, remember that in killing only the first-born of Egypt, God demonstrating a very precise ability to aim his wrath exactly where he pleased -- that is, there would have been no need, during the flood, to simply kill everybody who wasn't on Noah's ark.

You are assuming these were actual, historical events.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Gone
Premium Member
For example: we are told that defaulters from Christian belief are condemned to eternal torture in hell.
I certainly don't share that view of Hell. My views are closest to this:
The Orthodox Faith - Volume IV - Spirituality - The Kingdom of Heaven - Heaven and Hell
Let us consider, turning to the New Testament, Ananias and Sapphira. They sold their property, but withheld some of the price for themselves, giving the rest to Peter and the Apostles. Because they withheld some of their own money, and did not admit to the true price they had received, they died on the spot – a story presented in a magical-enough way to make it clear that these were miracle deaths, and therefore caused by God. But in the story (Acts 5), Peter himself made it clear that Ananias was in control of his own money, and could give or keep it as he saw fit. Were their deaths at the Hand of God just?
That always seemed to be to be a morality tale warning against a certain kind of behavior. Such stories were found throughout ancient literature and throughout the Bible. It's not a literal story and they might not be literal people who existed, but a story that was based on something that happened, with God smiting them as a way to get across the dire effects of their wrongdoing. No, I don't believe that God literally goes around smiting people for this or that transgression, but it seemed to be a way for ancient people to communicate the power and glory of a deity, that they have such power over life and death.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The problem is not the answer, it's the question. The question presumes that it's God's responsibility to serve the well-being of humanity, even though humanity is unwilling to serve it own well-being a great majority of the time. And there is simply no logical basis for our making this presumption.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
As defined by Alvin Plantinga, theodicy is the "answer to the question of why God permits evil." Theodicy is defined as a theological construct that attempts to vindicate God in response to the evidential problem of evil that seems inconsistent with the existence of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent deity. Another definition of theodicy is the vindication of divine goodness and providence in view of the existence of evil. The word theodicy derives from the Greek words Θεός Τheos and δίκη dikē. Theos is translated "God" and dikē can be translated as either "trial" or "judgement". Thus, theodicy literally means "justifying God.”

I don’t think this definition goes far enough, however, and would like interested members to explore further, into not only what God allows, but what God Himself does. What follows is taken from the Christian perspective, as I couldn’t do justice to any other religion. Other members may take that challenge on if they’d like.

What traditional theodicies never seem to look at are questions about what God ordains, or does, or causes to be done. Things like: eternal punishment after death, and unjust, God-ordained or God-committed actions in this world.

For example: we are told that defaulters from Christian belief are condemned to eternal torture in hell. We are also told that believers, although they may have committed horrible crimes in life, can repent and have a chance to avoid that eternal punishment and achieve salvation. That is never available to someone who simply cannot bring himself to believe, given the lack of any evidence whatever. The question is: is that just?

Let us consider the flood of Noah, or the plagues of Egypt, or the Massacre of Canaanites: the flood, we are told, was deliberately caused by God and drowned all humans on earth except Noah and 7 family members, and all of the animals except a few saved on the ark. All humans, including the infant born just when the rain began to fall. God orders that the Canaanites be destroyed, including the women and children, except for the females who were still virgins, who the Hebrews could keep for themselves. In Egypt, God finally sends a “destroyer” targeted on the first-born of Egypt, from the first-born of Pharaoh to the first-born of the lowly farmers sheep. What on earth was the crime committed by those first-born sons of Egypt – including the children? Can we say, after all this, that God acted justly and rightly? Or did God do very real evil?

Let us consider, turning to the New Testament, Ananias and Sapphira. They sold their property, but withheld some of the price for themselves, giving the rest to Peter and the Apostles. Because they withheld some of their own money, and did not admit to the true price they had received, they died on the spot – a story presented in a magical-enough way to make it clear that these were miracle deaths, and therefore caused by God. But in the story (Acts 5), Peter himself made it clear that Ananias was in control of his own money, and could give or keep it as he saw fit. Were their deaths at the Hand of God just?

In other words, does God not only allow evil in the world, but is He the proximate cause of much evil in the world? Discuss.

Hell is a myth, there is either life or death, the choice is ours.

The Flood is a myth created by the Israelites when trying to trace their blood lines back to the Adam of Mesopotamian lore whom they assumed were the first humans.

God has a "nature" and cannot do the ungodlike thing.

The existence of Good creates by contrast the potential for evil.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Oh I think we do, have you never been morally disgusted at man's inhumanity.
Not really, i am more annoyed by human stupidity. Which is probably much more widespread.

And what constitutes inhumanity could be in the eye of the beholder. For instance, I consider inhuman, among several things, prohibiting women to abort freely, or depriving people from help in terminating their lives, if they wish to. Especially if that deprivation of rights is based on a deity who has the same evidence of existing as Mother Goose.

But that is not what I meant. For instance, I do not feel any natural repulsion against what many Christians would consider sins. To make an example, blaspheming the Holy Spirit, just to mention a pretty big one.

Look: The Holy Spirit is as credible as the Blue Fairy or Mickey Mouse.

No problem at all. Why is that?

Ciao

- viole
 
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