Theocratic laws: why?

[SigurdReginson]

The laws man creates to govern itself isn't unlike the laws of nature and how they govern life. Pressures against life force them to adapt or they are removed from the world. Similarly, laws against certain behaviors force people to fall in line or to be removed from society.

Now, just like in nature, there are ways to exploit one's surroundings so they can skirt the laws around them. To get around the problem of gravity, a creature may develope the ability to fly. To get around a law against stealing, someone might practice their talents in slight of hand and misdirection to be better at pick pocketing.

Ultimately, though, man gets to choose how our laws influence our lives. Hopefully, the idea is that those laws benefit the population as a whole. Now, more often than not, this is instead used as a way to control people and their behaviors with a specific end goal in mind. Still, in the end, no ruler wants their subjects to revolt.

Theocratic laws are no different in this regard, but when you add religion into the mix, things start getting skewed and harmful. It feels like the more laws rely on religion, the more draconian and nonsensical they get. It seems to me the reason why is that the laws are no longer aiming to keep the peace, but are instead trying to appease the god they serve.

This seems to me to be very similar in the way laws change to appease a tyrant. Hell, many tyrants and dictators now and in the past demanded to be worshipped like literal gods (I'm looking at you, Kim dynasty). These are laws shaped to benefit the tyrant, not the people.

Anyways/TLDR; are theocratic and blasphemy laws actually beneficial towards people? How? Why should anyone want to be governed by a religion? In what way does a religion govern man better than the way man can govern themselves? Is it true that the more religious a government becomes, the more tyranical it gets? If not, why?

 

[Howard Is]

Until/unless a person has become disconnected from ties-that-bind, they will be blissfully unaware of the existential crisis lurking just below the surface of the mind.

At one stage in my life, I regularly took people out into the mountains. Friends owned a few hundred hectares, which backed up against an extensive national park.

There was a half-built simple dwelling which provided a corrugated iron roof and two walls, with a small loft area for sleeping, and a water tank. Cooking was done in a pit fire on the ground.

I spent a lot of time in solitude there. They were the best times of my life.

What I noticed repeatedly was how challenging, even threatening, this environment was to those unaccustomed to solitude. One friend took two or three days before proudly announcing that he was going ‘Walkman-free’. (For you young ones, Sony produced a small portable cassette player called the Walkman, which was the height of cool ).

Religion and entertainment have something very important in common.
They take your mind off reality.

Without either, humans can quickly start suffering an existential crisis.

Humans have a ‘soft-caste’ brain.
Their perceived place in the world is a construct.
They don’t like being aware of this.

They particularly dislike it when the underpinnings of their sense of identity are showing.

So, religion is like a straight-jacket which prevents them flailing around and having an identity crisis. Or like blinkers on a horse.

There are other institutions which perform a similar function.

When they sense that someone wants to remove their blinkers ...they get nasty.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Other organisms in nature gain places in distinct niches, and trade some abilities for others. Most animals have to work hard to survive, even if they have gained great abilities, while a few don't. We seem to be a creature that cheated the game entirely, having gained the intelligence to easily catch whatever we like, or grow what we like. We have two problems though: historically we get in each other's way, and with our greater ability, we also get in nature's way. And so, we seem like an animal that ought to have rules, because we have these powers that can be abused and misused. A religion might address this, though of course, religion also seems to be something that we historically have a hard time discovering or engineering. I submit that it should be easier than we often make it, as we can appeal to basic reason and sense experience to find a good religion. We know the difference between chaos and equanimity, and what a good future could be, as by now, we should know what a troubled past looks like

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Anyways/TLDR; are theocratic and blasphemy laws actually beneficial towards people?

Nope. Even if its a good law, the reasons for it would be terrible.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Nope. Even if its a good law, the reasons for it would be terrible.

No one need even enforce a blasphemy law. Nature punishes us herself, for not regarding it as holy. And if we cannot see that, then we continue down this road.

 

[Howard Is]

No one need even enforce a blasphemy law. Nature punishes us herself, for not regarding it as holy. And if we cannot see that, then we continue down this road.

But since we are nature, it seems you are saying ‘Nature punishes itself, for not regarding itself as holy ‘.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

But since we are nature, it seems you are saying ‘Nature punishes itself, for not regarding itself as holy ‘.

Nature is the throne, we are potentially the infant king. Humans were singled out as the pilot animal, for the earth.. if I perceive things correctly. Perhaps I don't

 

[Howard Is]

Nature is the throne, we are potentially the infant king. Humans were singled out as the pilot animal, for the earth.. if I perceive things correctly. Perhaps I don't

I like the feeling behind your idea.
I endorse the notion of good stewardship.

The Australian Aboriginal people say “we are the eyes and ears of the land”, but in no way are we masters of it. We are woven into the Dreaming like all the other creatures.

 

[sun rise]

What I noticed repeatedly was how challenging, even threatening, this environment was to those unaccustomed to solitude.

The first time I went to India on a pilgrimage to Meher Baba's Tomb-shrine, I became aware of this issue. We were staying at a small place in Ahmednagar relaxing and waiting for dinner to be eventually served. Two Westerners showed up and I could feel their agitated vibrating. They could not sit still and wanted meat for dinner (chicken actually) quickly whereas we had been happy to eat vegetarian because that was what the place offered us.

I also remember being reluctant to go to the bazaar because of the noise and agitation of the place.

The peace did not last very long. Soon, like an addict needing a fix, I was ready to get back to the West and rejoin the noise. But the memory does linger after many decades.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Until/unless a person has become disconnected from ties-that-bind, they will be blissfully unaware of the existential crisis lurking just below the surface of the mind.

At one stage in my life, I regularly took people out into the mountains. Friends owned a few hundred hectares, which backed up against an extensive national park.

There was a half-built simple dwelling which provided a corrugated iron roof and two walls, with a small loft area for sleeping, and a water tank. Cooking was done in a pit fire on the ground.

I spent a lot of time in solitude there. They were the best times of my life.

What I noticed repeatedly was how challenging, even threatening, this environment was to those unaccustomed to solitude. One friend took two or three days before proudly announcing that he was going ‘Walkman-free’. (For you young ones, Sony produced a small portable cassette player called the Walkman, which was the height of cool ).

Religion and entertainment have something very important in common.
They take your mind off reality.

Without either, humans can quickly start suffering an existential crisis.

Humans have a ‘soft-caste’ brain.
Their perceived place in the world is a construct.
They don’t like being aware of this.

They particularly dislike it when the underpinnings of their sense of identity are showing.

So, religion is like a straight-jacket which prevents them flailing around and having an identity crisis. Or like blinkers on a horse.

There are other institutions which perform a similar function.

When they sense that someone wants to remove their blinkers ...they get nasty.

Very interesting insight. Thanks for sharing!

 

[SigurdReginson]

Other organisms in nature gain places in distinct niches, and trade some abilities for others. Most animals have to work hard to survive, even if they have gained great abilities, while a few don't. We seem to be a creature that cheated the game entirely, having gained the intelligence to easily catch whatever we like, or grow what we like. We have two problems though: historically we get in each other's way, and with our greater ability, we also get in nature's way. And so, we seem like an animal that ought to have rules, because we have these powers that can be abused and misused. A religion might address this, though of course, religion also seems to be something that we historically have a hard time discovering or engineering. I submit that it should be easier than we often make it, as we can appeal to basic reason and sense experience to find a good religion. We know the difference between chaos and equanimity, and what a good future could be, as by now, we should know what a troubled past looks like

The problem religion seems to pose, given your scenero, is that it seems to inspire tribalistic behavior. By its nature, this causes an us vs. them mentality with other competing religions. Religions that don't engage in this tribalistic behavior seem to lose power over time and dissolve (like the UU faith, or Quakerism).

If people appealed to basic reason, would they need religion to tell them what things are reasonable? Seems if one is self sufficient, religion might be redundant.

Edit: Ehh... I'm getting off topic, though. My apologies

 

[Estro Felino]

I mean...look at the Vatican.
I have recently bought a book called "Criminal Church" that gives an idea of how many crimes the Vatican, a theocracy committed across cenruries.
Theocracies go criminal, it's a fact.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

The problem religion seems to pose, given your scenero, is that it seems to inspire tribalistic behavior. By its nature, this causes an us vs. them mentality with other competing religions. Religions that don't engage in this tribalistic behavior seem to lose power over time and dissolve (like the UU faith, or Quakerism).

If people appealed to basic reason, would they need religion to tell them what things are reasonable? Seems if one is self sufficient, religion might be redundant.

We are just primates, and these kinds of animals do have a pack-forming physiology built into them. Perhaps you've heard of dunbar's number, it's this idea that you can only really know so many people at a time, as a human animal. Therefore, if suddenly the entirety of humanity entered into a border-less and blank state, they would likely naturally reform tribal blocks, barring highly advanced technological intervention, which might upgrade our interconnections.. If you force them out of this state (without this fictional futuristic technology), then what you get is something that is referred to as behavioral sink. Though a carefully engineered spirituality might also enable us to be more interconnected as well, but I haven't quite mapped out how that might work. Perhaps it is just a choice, perhaps we can decide to be particulate or be whole.. these might just be two paths we have to decide between

As to basic reason leading to religion, reason might tell us that there are strategies we can head toward to try and live optimally. That's a paragraph I'll have to write later though, as I'm now pretty tired

 

[Estro Felino]

We are just primates, and these kinds of animals do have a pack-forming physiology built into them. Perhaps you've heard of dunbar's number, it's this idea that you can only really know so many people at a time, as a human animal. Therefore, if suddenly the entirety of humanity entered into a border-less and blank state, they would likely naturally reform tribal blocks, barring highly advanced technological intervention, which might upgrade our interconnections.. If you force them out of this state (without this fictional futuristic technology), then what you get is something that is referred to as behavioral sink. Though a carefully engineered spirituality might also enable us to be more interconnected as well, but I haven't quite mapped out how that might work

As to basic reason leading to religion, reason might tell us that there are strategies we can head toward to try and live optimally. That's a paragraph I'll have to write later though, as I'm now pretty tired

I think religious fundamentalism uses power to create consensus and to suppress whoever contradicts it.
Like Jordan Bruno, a martyr of freedom of thought.

 

[stvdv]

The laws man creates to govern itself isn't unlike the laws of nature and how they govern life.

Interesting start line. We are part of nature, so good Laws indeed need to take natural Laws into consideration. Exhausting the Earth will bite us in the back

Now, more often than not, this is instead used as a way to control people and their behaviors with a specific end goal in mind
Still, in the end, no ruler wants their subjects to revolt.

That is what I see happening with Corona now

Theocratic laws are no different in this regard, but when you add religion into the mix, things start getting skewed and harmful
It feels like the more laws rely on religion, the more draconian and nonsensical they get.

Ancient Religions started in times where there was a lot of superstition and fear of God, hence evil minded humans abused good concept

It seems to me the reason why is that the laws are no longer aiming to keep the peace, but are instead trying to appease the god they serve.
Hell, many tyrants and dictators now and in the past demanded to be worshipped like literal gods (I'm looking at you, Kim dynasty).

Trying to appease God comes from fear of death/hell I have seen in the Baptist Church I was. Still now in the age of Science. Strange.

 

[stvdv]

Anyways/TLDR; are theocratic and blasphemy laws actually beneficial towards people? How?

IF they kill those who blaspheme for sure this Law is not beneficial. The Koran says you can't force others to believe. Seems blaspheme Law is "not done". I believe that if a Religion behaves Dharmic, nobody would even consider to Blaspheme. Blaspheme seems just self created karma by the Religion itself.

Why should anyone want to be governed by a religion?

I read that the Dalai said that it would be best that we get a secular world, not governed by religion. How He explained it made a lot of sense. I liked that idea. If the world is governed by "human values" like "truth, righteousness, love, non-violence" then "peace" will result. So, paramount is "Truth", and any American should understand that Trump is not the best candidate when it comes to that

In what way does a religion govern man better than the way man can govern themselves?

The core of every Religion is Love, and all other "human values". If those would be used it would definitely be good, sadly fear and hate dominate a lot.

Is it true that the more religious a government becomes, the more tyranical it gets? If not, why?

NO. I do not call it Religious, unless they stick to their good and positive "human values". Love is the highest Commandment.

 

[stvdv]

Why should anyone want to be governed by a religion?

This is what I see happen now:
I think that Religion could be good, but a world governed by humane "human values" might be better.
The Church used "Fear of God", the new Governments use "Fear of Corona" as their God, by brainwashing-like propaganda

Having seen a film about China, fully controlling their people by cameras on every corner, I feel we are already drifting in that direction
Having been brainwashed by films like the Matrix, I think American/European youth is ready for accepting smartphone controlled living

Freedom of Speech has already gone, proven by the fact that we are not allowed to give openly our thoughts about Corona virus. All these Youtubes are taken out by the governments, and under every Youtube and even website I see brainwash-like fear-Corona ads

Religions messed up big time in the past, before being set straight. Same will happen without Religion, because of control/money greed

Maybe needed now to control Corona, but they like to keep it this way for sure, as they brainwash us now with their slogan "the new normal"
The "filthy" rich already announced that they made "BILLIONS" profit from Corona, this proves to me they are worse than the Church
The Church made billions too, but at least did use it to help the poor. I did not hear the "filthy" rich had these plans

As long as "money" and "Power/Control" greediness makes dollar-signs in their eyes, they are blind for humane governing the world

 

[SigurdReginson]

Interesting start line. We are part of nature, so good Laws indeed need to take natural Laws into consideration. Exhausting the Earth will bite us in the back

Facts!

That is what I see happening with Corona now

For sure, though some of the precautions exist for a reason. I work in a hospital that is going through an outbreak right now. The company was having us do things like reuse our masks, and not social distancing. Now the Center for Disease Control is up our butts and retraining us.

The virus is real, I've seen it's effects first hand. I actually just talked to some people who just finished their quarantine. I'm gonna make a thread about it later.

Ancient Religions started in times where there was a lot of superstition and fear of God, hence evil minded humans abused good concept

How ancient is ancient? In 1994, Hadi Al-Mutaif said blasphemous words that the court thought was good enough to sentence him to death: apostacy. Then, of course, there's the Qatif rape case where the victim got 200 lashes for breaking the regional Sharia laws.

Trying to appease God comes from fear of death/hell I have seen in the Baptist Church I was. Still now in the age of Science. Strange.

Fear is a powerful tool for controlling minds that don't question.

IF they kill those who blaspheme for sure this Law is not beneficial. The Koran says you can't force others to believe. Seems blaspheme Law is "not done". I believe that if a Religion behaves Dharmic, nobody would even consider to Blaspheme. Blaspheme seems just self created karma by the Religion itself.

Oof... I'm not well versed in Hindu paths, but the prospect of Dharma is a tough pill for me to swallow. That just seems like more controlling to me.

I read that the Dalai said that it would be best that we get a secular world, not governed by religion. How He explained it made a lot of sense. I liked that idea. If the world is governed by "human values" like "truth, righteousness, love, non-violence" then "peace" will result. So, paramount is "Truth", and any American should understand that Trump is not the best candidate when it comes to that

Agreed. He's not getting my vote, personally. Then again, Biden sucks, too. This is the problem with a 2 party system.

The core of every Religion is Love, and all other "human values". If those would be used it would definitely be good, sadly fear and hate dominate a lot.

I wish more religious folks followed that commandment by Jesus. Instead, fear seems to be the ultimate take away for many folks. There's a reason I can't tell my family that I'm an atheist.

NO. I do not call it Religious, unless they stick to their good and positive "human values". Love is the highest Commandment.

If not religious, then where does it come from? Sodomy as a punishable crime has the name Sodom in it. From the bible. The city that was demolished for it's sinfulness: especially regarding sex.

Your last point I'll do a different reply for. There's a lot to go through!

 

[SigurdReginson]

This is what I see happen now:
I think that Religion could be good, but a world governed by humane "human values" might be better.
The Church used "Fear of God", the new Governments use "Fear of Corona" as their God, by brainwashing-like propaganda

It is interesting how this has been unfolding. Especially in my country. I've been in some parts of the country where I've been ridiculed for wearing a mask. Called a "sheep." Where I live, the opposite might happen, where you might be ridiculed for not wearing a mask. Both the media and leaders are weilding this far outside the realm of facts and logic and are instead appealing to people's emotions. That's what it takes to manipulate people, though.

Having seen a film about China, fully controlling their people by cameras on every corner, I feel we are already drifting in that direction
Having been brainwashed by films like the Matrix, I think American/European youth is ready for accepting smartphone controlled living

I take a different perspective from you on this. I feel electronics are actually one of the few places to get more accurate information on things considering you have all the different sources at your finger tips. True, governments like China are starting to use technology to control people and limit what they see, but governments have always done this. Hell, they even got Walt Disney and Dr. Sues to make propaganda cartoons to manipulate Americans during WW2.

At least with technology, there are ways to get around the attempts at control; for now. 50 years from now freedom of information might be controlled far more. We might see more people going to the deep web just to get unrestricted internet access.

I'm far more worried about Google and Facebook, honestly.

Freedom of Speech has already gone, proven by the fact that we are not allowed to give openly our thoughts about Corona virus. All these Youtubes are taken out by the governments, and under every Youtube and even website I see brainwash-like fear-Corona ads

Eh... Youtube, which is run by Google. I think this has more to do with corporations and their control, honestly. I don't think they've had as much ability to control the population as they've had the past 15 or so years. It's frightening.

Religions messed up big time in the past, before being set straight. Same will happen without Religion, because of control/money greed

The reason why religion straightened out is because of the age of reason, IMO. Christianity didn't have a lick to say about slavery for 1700-1800 years until the age of reason came along, then all the sudden god doesn't want people to be slaves anymore.

On your second point, I absolutely agree. That said, at least we aren't killing eachother in holy wars or world wars for the moment. Things do seem to be going in an upward direction. Let's just hope they continue going that way.

Maybe needed now to control Corona, but they like to keep it this way for sure, as they brainwash us now with their slogan "the new normal"
The "filthy" rich already announced that they made "BILLIONS" profit from Corona, this proves to me they are worse than the Church
The Church made billions too, but at least did use it to help the poor. I did not hear the "filthy" rich had these plans

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

Just so you know, I work for a non profit religious organization. It is 100% about the profit, and because they are religious, they don't have to pay taxes like other companies do. The poor are just as poor now than as they were before they moved into the area. They aren't a bad company, and they do have good charities they donate to (like Relay for Life), but even Microsoft and Starbucks has good charities they donate to as well.

I understand your point, and there is validity there, but I feel there needs to be more intellectual honesty here.

As long as "money" and "Power/Control" greediness makes dollar-signs in their eyes, they are blind for humane governing the world

100% true. Only the power hungry seek power. Unfortunately, that means that we are governed by those same people. Maybe someone would like to build us a computer to govern us instead? What could possibly go wrong?

That, or having a governing system that actually holds the leaders accountable might be something more useful to have.

 

[stvdv]

I work in a hospital that is going through an outbreak right now. The company was having us do things like reuse our masks, and not social distancing

Worst message I have seen today. Do you live in a third world country, still unaware of the dangers when not keeping 1.5 meters?
What you describe is a criminal act, forcing someone with insufficient protection without social distancing to violate Corona Laws

I'm gonna make a thread about it later.

Very good idea, and make your boss read it too, the one sending you with bad equipment forcing to disobey 1.5 meter Corona Law

How ancient is ancient? In 1994, Hadi Al-Mutaif said blasphemous words that the court thought was good enough to sentence him to death: apostacy

I said "errors crept in religious systems in ancient times"....I did not say "errors crept out yet"...sadly and proven by this case.
Quite a few Muslims on RF accused me of Islamophobia. Their often used Ostrich-trick avoid having to do introspection

Qatif rape case where the victim got 200 lashes for breaking the regional Sharia laws

How sick can one be. One of the worst crimes to commit. He can say goodbye to his 77 virgins he probably also believes in.

There's a reason I can't tell my family that I'm an atheist.

Parents make mistakes. This kind of arrogance makes that there is a Hell, it's human created and it's found on planet Earth

If not religious, then where does it come from?

My father said "your problem is your religion++", I told him "I never want to see you again, until you apologize for that"...7 years now
My father is Atheist. IMO it comes from holding on to a crooked ego, probably suppressed hate projected on son, being devoid of Love.

Oof... I'm not well versed in Hindu paths, but the prospect of Dharma is a tough pill for me to swallow. That just seems like more controlling to me

Dharma is the Sanskrit term for "righteous actions"...controlling is "not Dharmic"

Sodomy as a punishable crime has the name Sodom in it. From the bible. The city that was demolished for it's sinfulness: especially regarding sex.

Living Spiritual has to do with: Truth, Righteousness, Love, Peace, non violence. Whatever deviates is not-spiritual/not-religious.
IF you dress like a woman, does not mean that you are a woman. IF people claim to be spiritual, doesn't prove they are