Theists: what do you think movitates atheists?

[McBell]

No, I’m just saying human nature tends toward independent, self-centered thinking; atheists or religionists.

Ah.
My apologies for jumping the gun.

 

[Brian2]

As have I, however my beliefs tend to match better with Christian Unitarian. Or non subscribing Presbyterian.

Yes Anglicans seem very tolerant and don't kick people out for differing views. That said, I'm sure that the variety in Anglicanism also includes intolerant people also.
Of course having views outside the Anglican doctrines may allow you to fellowship there but does not mean that you could be baptised there.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Yes Anglicans seem very tolerant and don't kick people out for differing views. That said, I'm sure that the variety in Anglicanism also includes intolerant people also.
Of course having views outside the Anglican doctrines may allow you to fellowship there but does not mean that you could be baptised there.

I was baptised Anglican as as infant.

The Anglicans are a very broad church ranging from near puritanical to Anglo Catholic. Our previous rector had no problems with people rejecting the Virgin Birth and any of the more miraculous beliefs. however he though Unitarianism "Dangerous"
He was not at all happy with Atonement theology himself.

 

[Brian2]

I was baptised Anglican as as infant.

The Anglicans are a very broad church ranging from near puritanical to Anglo Catholic. Our previous rector had no problems with people rejecting the Virgin Birth and any of the more miraculous beliefs. however he though Unitarianism "Dangerous"
He was not at all happy with Atonement theology himself.

Atonement theology is a tough one. The acceptance of the atonement is no doubt important but understanding it is another thing.
I don't know all the ins and outs of Unitarianism. I think I am speaking to a Unitarian now on another thread so might find out more about it.
It is a shame that people who are drawn to Jesus are divided in lines of doctrine. It seems it cannot be helped at times however, but at other times it is not so important.
I guess it is up to God to judge each of us individually about those issues.
For various denominations, they seems to be, understandably, in the business of protecting what they see as the truth. This is a good thing until it comes to dividing Christians for the sake of something fairly minor.
It is hard to know sometimes what is minor and what is not.
I tend to be pretty adamant on the forum about some things and hate what a bunch of men have done in splitting up Christians because of their ideas which seem to be easily defeated in a battle of scriptures. But of course we are all blinded to an extent and I try not blame people for their blindness. I no doubt am blind to things also.

 

[Trailblazer]

Theists: do you agree with this? Why do you think atheists are atheists?

I believe what atheists tell me and what they tell me is that they are atheists because there is 'no evidence' that God exists, or so they believe.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

I was an atheist because God was not interesting - worth my time thinking about. So that was my reason back in the day.

Others I've seen are searching for truth and don't find any reason to believe in God.

As to being angry: I've read or heard that theists have been angry with God whereas some atheists might possibly think about God "you don't exist and I hate you".

There is an apocryphal story about St. Teresa whose life was threatened when she was trying to cross a river to do God's work. Her emotions might or might not include anger - who knows. But in any event, it's reported she said to God "when wilt Thou cease from scattering obstacles in our path?” “Do not complain, daughter,” the Divine Master answered, “for it is ever thus that I treat My friends.” “Ah, Lord, it is also on that account that Thou hast so few!” was her reply. St. Teresa of Ávila: “If this is how You treat your friends….”

I'm a theist and I'm always angry at God because in my opinion, He's not a compassionate Father. There are billions of people all around the world suffering from diseases, poverty and hunger.
Maybe it is because of our sins or karma that we suffer. But that doesn't mean God should turn his back on us and leave us in our miserable condition. He should be forgiving. But He's not. That stopped me from praying to God. I mean, what's the use. He's not gonna listen to our prayers anyway. But i do believe in His existence (as a cruel father).
I think this is the reason why many have turned away from God.

 

[McBell]

I believe what atheists tell me and what they tell me is that they are atheists because there is 'no evidence' that God exists, or so they believe.

I am an atheist simply because no one has convinced me that a deity exists outside their imagination.

 

[stvdv]

I think there are some people who might claim to be atheists, and are angry at God. I wouldn't see them as actual atheists (since any belief in a God to be angry at is then logically impossible), but people sometimes claim to be believers without belief, right? So I daresay the opposite occurs also.

Most often, though, the 'angry atheist' trope is not based on actual people.

True.

Have you met 1 religious person who could give you a "true" definition of God
It seems to me that whoever uses the word God not really has a clue what it means

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm a theist and I'm always angry at God because in my opinion, He's not a compassionate Father. There are billions of people all around the world suffering from diseases, poverty and hunger.
Maybe it is because of our sins or karma that we suffer. But that doesn't mean God should turn his back on us and leave us in our miserable condition. He should be forgiving. But He's not. That stopped me from praying to God. I mean, what's the use. He's not gonna listen to our prayers anyway. But i do believe in His existence (as a cruel father).
I think this is the reason why many have turned away from God.

I never thought this is why people turned away from God because most people don't talk about it. I just assumed they stopped believing in God.

However, I feel similarly to you. I do not see God as loving because of all the suffering in the world. I don't believe it is because if bad karma, I think there is suffering because of the way God created the world, a material world is a storehouse of suffering because of all the things that can cause suffering. Some people suffer little and I believe that is because of fate, because God spared them, or because they use all kinds if things to run away from life; drugs, alcohol, movies, TV, recreational activities.

How other Baha'is, Christians, Jews and Muslims can see God as loving is beyond me, I think they believe God is loving because their scriptures say God is loving. I am more prone to logic than relying upon scriptures that do not comport with reality.

I do not pray much and if I do I never ask God for anything. I just pray out if desperation.
I do believe God exists, I am certain of it, and I fear God, so I try to do what I am supposed to do.
I cannot force myself to love a God I do not believe is loving. I hope that changes someday before I die.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am an atheist simply because no one has convinced me that a deity exists outside their imagination.

I don't think anyone can convince you that God exists, you would have to become convinced on your own.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I think there is suffering because of the way God created the world, a material world is a storehouse of suffering because of all the things that can cause suffering.

But did not Bahaollah say that God is all-loving. Have you abandoned Bahaiism?
That certainly is not a good God. How can one believe that such a God will have the next world any better? Probably, there will be more sorrow once we are in his complete control.

Have you met 1 religious person who could give you a "true" definition of God
It seems to me that whoever uses the word God not really has a clue what it means

Oh sure, I am a deeply religious person. I can give you (my) exact definition of God - Human imagination.

 

[Trailblazer]

But did not Bahaollah say that God is all-loving. Have you abandoned Bahaiism?

No, I have not abandoned it, I just don't agree that God is all-loving, and obviously that puts me at odds with other Baha'is who believe that.

That certainly is not a good God. How can one believe that such a God will have the next world any better? Probably, there will be more sorrow once we are in his complete control.

I just say I don't know. God does not seem all-good to be, but I realize there are things I don't know.
There will be no more sorrow in the next world because the material world is the cause of most suffering and the next world is not a material world.

“If we suffer it is the outcome of material things, and all the trials and troubles come from this world of illusion.

For instance, a merchant may lose his trade and depression ensues. A workman is dismissed and starvation stares him in the face. A farmer has a bad harvest, anxiety fills his mind. A man builds a house which is burnt to the ground and he is straightway homeless, ruined, and in despair.

All these examples are to show you that the trials which beset our every step, all our sorrow, pain, shame and grief, are born in the world of matter; whereas the spiritual Kingdom never causes sadness. A man living with his thoughts in this Kingdom knows perpetual joy. The ills all flesh is heir to do not pass him by, but they only touch the surface of his life, the depths are calm and serene.” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 110

 

[Aupmanyav]

“If we suffer it is the outcome of material things, and all the trials and troubles come from this world of illusion.

For instance, a merchant may lose his trade and depression ensues. A workman is dismissed and starvation stares him in the face. A farmer has a bad harvest, anxiety fills his mind. A man builds a house which is burnt to the ground and he is straightway homeless, ruined, and in despair.

.. whereas the spiritual Kingdom never causes sadness.

Was Bahaollah an Advaitist Hindu or a Buddhist? Because many Hindus believe that the world is an illusion 'maya'. Buddhists say that it has no substance (anatta). I have not come accross Abrahamics saying that the world is an illusion.
Who controls all this, Allah. Then we should say that the cause of suffering is Allah.
Bahaollah had no clue about Allah (you said those who use the world God have no clue about God). All he claims for God may not be true since he had no clue about God.
You are confused and say contradictory things because you do not apply your mind to them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Was Bahaollah an Advaitist Hindu or a Buddhist? Because many Hindus believe that the world is an illusion 'maya'. Buddhists say that it has no substance (anatta). I have not come accross Abrahamics saying that the world is an illusion.

The Baha'i Faith has many similar teachings to Buddhism and probably also with Hinduism from what I have heard from a Hindu who was on Baha'i Forums.

The Baha'i Faith has many similar beliefs as Buddhism but there are also some differences.

Buddhism and the Bahá'í Faith

Who controls all this, Allah. Then we should say that the cause of suffering is Allah

Nobody controls Allah, He is in complete control of everything.
Indirectly Allah is the cause of suffering since Allah created the material world that causes suffering and Allah determines some of our fate.

.
Bahaollah had no clue about Allah (you said those who use the world God have no clue about God). All he claims for God may not be true since he had no clue about God.

I believe He knew more about God than anyone has ever known, but I know you do not believe that since you have no reason to since you are not a Baha'i.

.
You are confused and say contradictory things because you do not apply your mind to them.

No, I am not confused but I understand why I sound confused. I have certain feelings about God because of my own suffering and the suffering of others but in my mind I realize I am wrong since I cannot know more than the Messengers of God.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

I cannot force myself to love a God I do not believe is loving. I hope that changes someday before I die.

I feel the same way.
People keep telling me that i should love God or that i should have complete faith in Him no matter what.
But I cannot force myself to love a cruel God ... I mean, i can always pretend to love Him but that's not really loving ... Is it?
True love for God should come from within and right now i don't feel anything for Him.

That's why instead of staying on the path of love, faith and devotion, I chose the path of knowledge (like studying scriptures, taking part in online discussions etc.) so that i can know more about Him and his cruel ways.

 

[Trailblazer]

I feel the same way.
People keep telling me that i should love God or that i should have complete faith in Him no matter what.
But I cannot force myself to love a cruel God ... I mean, i can always pretend to love Him but that's not really loving ... Is it?
True love for God should come from within and right now i don't feel anything for Him.

That's why instead of staying on the path of love, faith and devotion, I chose the path of knowledge (like studying scriptures, taking part in online discussions etc.) so that i can know more about Him and his cruel ways.

I feel the same way. I cannot pretend to love God and make myself love God, and even if did I believe that God would know it was not sincere, so what would be the point?

I also choose the path or knowledge instead of the path of love, faith and devotion, and I believe that knowledge of God is more important than anything else, according to my beliefs.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

Love, faith, and devotion is a personal thing but I believe it must be based upon knowledge or faith is blind.
I was not brought up in a religion that teaches that God is loving, so I surmise that could be one reason I feel as I do.

I try to be open to believing God is not really cruel but rather there are things I don't understand. I feel that God is cruel because of my own suffering and because of suffering I see in the world, but on a cognitive level I know I am probably wrong, because otherwise all the scriptures are wrong, and that does not make sense to me.

Also, the Baha'i teachings say that suffering is not bad, and actually it is good because it helps us grow spiritually. Suffering certainly has that potential but that is not always what happens and I don't think it is right to blame people because they cannot withstand undue suffering, as I consider that judgmental.

“Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.” Paris Talks, p. 51

 

[syo]

You will need to be much more specific than that.
Though I strongly suspect you already know that.

ok. the dead will rise and live again. not.

 

[McBell]

ok. the dead will rise and live again. not.

And that belief makes them a cult?
Or is it your claim that that lacking in your beliefs is all it takes for your beliefs to not be a cult?

 

[steveb1]

In another thread, the idea was brought up that many theists believe that atheists are atheists because they're angry with God.

Theists: do you agree with this? Why do you think atheists are atheists?

What do you think causes a person to abandon their theistic belief system and become an atheist?

What do you think motivates a person to never adopt a theistic belief system in the first place?

Atheism precludes atheists from being angry at deities they do not believe exist. Atheists can, however, be angry at theistic God-claims that are blatantly irrational or cruel.

Atheism is motivated by the simple realization that for atheists there is no believable evidence for God. I really think it's that profound and that simple.

 

[syo]

And that belief makes them a cult?

A huge one.

Or is it your claim that that lacking in your beliefs is all it takes for your beliefs to not be a cult?

What?